Latin setupmathematics

Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

In order to align with Unicode, \setupmathematics might have Latin shape options, as the Greek ‘lcgreek’ and ‘ucgreek', say ‘lclatin' and ‘uclatin', both defaulting to ’italic’. Unicode added the Latin italic symbols to the Math Alphanumeric Symbols range, so the upright letters are inaccessible when italic is assigned to the Basic Latin (ASCII) range.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/14/2016 7:11 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
> In order to align with Unicode, \setupmathematics might have Latin shape options, as the Greek ‘lcgreek’ and ‘ucgreek', say ‘lclatin' and ‘uclatin', both defaulting to ’italic’. Unicode added the Latin italic symbols to the Math Alphanumeric Symbols range, so the upright letters are inaccessible when italic is assigned to the Basic Latin (ASCII) range.

I'm not sure what you mean. One can use \mathupright if needed. We 
support all the alphabets and these are independent of the basic latin 
range.


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 15:37, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/14/2016 7:11 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> In order to align with Unicode, \setupmathematics might have Latin shape options, as the Greek ‘lcgreek’ and ‘ucgreek', say ‘lclatin' and ‘uclatin', both defaulting to ’italic’. Unicode added the Latin italic symbols to the Math Alphanumeric Symbols range, so the upright letters are inaccessible when italic is assigned to the Basic Latin (ASCII) range.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean. One can use \mathupright if needed. We support all the alphabets and these are independent of the basic latin range.

Traditionally constants are set in upright and variables in italic. So constants like “log” etc., are set in upright. It is not used rigorously because of past typographical limitations, but one might in principle do that, cf. the example below, where the integral differential “d” is set in upright to disambiguate relative the function named “d”.

When Unicode added math styles, it added italics, expecting the ASCII range to be upright, which would be normal if using a text editor that does not translate math into italics. But the TeX legacy is the opposite.

----
\setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]

\startformula
  \startalign
    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
    I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, dx \NR
    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
    I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
  \stopalign
\stopformula
----


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 15:37, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/14/2016 7:11 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> In order to align with Unicode, \setupmathematics might have Latin shape options, as the Greek ‘lcgreek’ and ‘ucgreek', say ‘lclatin' and ‘uclatin', both defaulting to ’italic’. Unicode added the Latin italic symbols to the Math Alphanumeric Symbols range, so the upright letters are inaccessible when italic is assigned to the Basic Latin (ASCII) range.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean. One can use \mathupright if needed. We support all the alphabets and these are independent of the basic latin range.

Traditionally constants are set in upright and variables in italic. So constants like “log” etc., are set in upright. It is not used rigorously because of past typographical limitations, but one might in principle do that, cf. the example below, where the integral differential “d” is set in upright to disambiguate relative the function named “d”.

When Unicode added math styles, it added italics, expecting the ASCII range to be upright, which would be normal if using a text editor that does not translate math into italics. But the TeX legacy is the opposite.

----
\setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]

\startformula
 \startalign
   I &= ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
   I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, dx \NR
   I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
   I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
 \stopalign
\stopformula
----


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Wolfgang Schuster]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1284 bytes --]

> Hans Åberg <mailto:haberg-1@telia.com>
> 15. Mai 2016 um 16:28
>
> Traditionally constants are set in upright and variables in italic. So 
> constants like “log” etc., are set in upright. It is not used 
> rigorously because of past typographical limitations, but one might in 
> principle do that, cf. the example below, where the integral 
> differential “d” is set in upright to disambiguate relative the 
> function named “d”.
>
> When Unicode added math styles, it added italics, expecting the ASCII 
> range to be upright, which would be normal if using a text editor that 
> does not translate math into italics. But the TeX legacy is the opposite.
>
> ----
> \setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]
>
> \startformula
> \startalign
> I &= ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
> I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, dx \NR
> I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
> I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
> \stopalign
> \stopformula
> ----
\appendtoks \rm \to \everymathematics

\setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]

\starttext

\startformula
     \startmathalignment
     \NC I \EQ ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
     \NC I \EQ ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, dx \NR
     \NC I \EQ ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
     \NC I \EQ ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, dx \NR
     \stopmathalignment
\stopformula

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 16:44, Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> \appendtoks \rm \to \everymathematics

This does the trick. Here more carefully composed example, showing how tricky it is to use currently:

\setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]

\startformula
  \startalign
    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, {\mathupright d} x \NR
  \stopalign
\stopformula


\appendtoks \rm \to \everymathematics

\startformula
  \startalign
    𝐼 &= ∫_𝑆 𝑑(𝑥)\, d𝑥 \NR
    𝐼 &= ∫_𝑆 𝑑(𝑥)\, \mathupright{d} 𝑥 \NR
  \stopalign
\stopformula

The first integral above is how it typically looks, with the differential “d” in italic. The last three changes it to upright. In the last two, relying on Unicode math styles, one must change the other variables as well, x, I, S, to italic. A practical problem is the lack of a good input method, but if that changes, it might be useful.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 16:44, Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> \appendtoks \rm \to \everymathematics

Here is another variation: using the sans-serif math styles, combining with the suggestion in the “Nolimits” thread. It would save the effort having to change all variables into italics by hand, but otherwise, just a hack. (It seems that \diff is defined, though I haven’t found a reference for it.)

\setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]

\appendtoks
  \catcode`𝖽=\activecatcode
  \letcharcode `𝖽 \diff
\to \everymathematics

\startformula
  \startalign
    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, 𝖽 x \NR
    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \diff x \NR
    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, {\mathupright d} x \NR
  \stopalign
\stopformula


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/15/2016 4:28 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> On 15 May 2016, at 15:37, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/14/2016 7:11 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>> In order to align with Unicode, \setupmathematics might have Latin shape options, as the Greek ‘lcgreek’ and ‘ucgreek', say ‘lclatin' and ‘uclatin', both defaulting to ’italic’. Unicode added the Latin italic symbols to the Math Alphanumeric Symbols range, so the upright letters are inaccessible when italic is assigned to the Basic Latin (ASCII) range.
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean. One can use \mathupright if needed. We support all the alphabets and these are independent of the basic latin range.
>
> Traditionally constants are set in upright and variables in italic. So constants like “log” etc., are set in upright. It is not used rigorously because of past typographical limitations, but one might in principle do that, cf. the example below, where the integral differential “d” is set in upright to disambiguate relative the function named “d”.
>
> When Unicode added math styles, it added italics, expecting the ASCII range to be upright, which would be normal if using a text editor that does not translate math into italics. But the TeX legacy is the opposite.
>
> ----
> \setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]
>
> \startformula
>  \startalign
>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
>    I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, dx \NR
>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
>    I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
>  \stopalign
> \stopformula

well, i guess unicode assumed messing with math input characters anyway 
(given that some alphabets have holes) and a normal upright alphabet 
would have made sense (after all emojs get added by the dozen every time 
and there is no end at that so why on math)

anyway, so you want no mapping then, so this means something like

\unprotect
     \let\mathitalic\mathdefault
     \appendtoks
         \edef\p_default{\mathematicsparameter\c!default}%
         \ifx\p_default\v!normal
           \let\mathdefault\mathupright
         \else
           \let\mathdefault\mathitalic
         \fi
     \to \everysetupmathematics
\protect

\setupmathematics[default=normal]

(where of course we default to default=italic)

i have no problem adding that (basically one can even go as far as 
disabling every mapping assuming pure unicode input but i guess that 
users then would still ask for \mathfoo commands)

and of course we need more math fonts that have monospace (one is in the 
making in the gyre project)

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/15/2016 6:36 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> On 15 May 2016, at 16:44, Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> \appendtoks \rm \to \everymathematics
>
> Here is another variation: using the sans-serif math styles, combining with the suggestion in the “Nolimits” thread. It would save the effort having to change all variables into italics by hand, but otherwise, just a hack. (It seems that \diff is defined, though I haven’t found a reference for it.)
>
> \setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]
>
> \appendtoks
>   \catcode`𝖽=\activecatcode
>   \letcharcode `𝖽 \diff
> \to \everymathematics
>
> \startformula
>   \startalign
>     I &= ∫_S d(x)\, 𝖽 x \NR
>     I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \diff x \NR
>     I &= ∫_S d(x)\, {\mathupright d} x \NR
>   \stopalign
> \stopformula

What do you mean with change by hand ... isn't that what context can do 
for you? Operate on all those axes ... (\tf is the upright one). There 
are extensive mapping mechanisms so best user them.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 19:12, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/2016 6:36 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 15 May 2016, at 16:44, Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> \appendtoks \rm \to \everymathematics
>> 
>> Here is another variation: using the sans-serif math styles, combining with the suggestion in the “Nolimits” thread. It would save the effort having to change all variables into italics by hand, but otherwise, just a hack. (It seems that \diff is defined, though I haven’t found a reference for it.)
>> 
>> \setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]
>> 
>> \appendtoks
>>  \catcode`𝖽=\activecatcode
>>  \letcharcode `𝖽 \diff
>> \to \everymathematics
>> 
>> \startformula
>>  \startalign
>>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, 𝖽 x \NR
>>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \diff x \NR
>>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, {\mathupright d} x \NR
>>  \stopalign
>> \stopformula
> 
> What do you mean with change by hand ... isn't that what context can do for you? Operate on all those axes ... (\tf is the upright one). There are extensive mapping mechanisms so best user them.

The idea is to follow Unicode math styles in the input, so the serif upright styles must be in the ASCII range—there are no special math styles for those. Right now, in TeX code, one normally uses the in the ASCII range for math italic. So all variables, now in the ASCII range must be changed to Unicode math italic in order to not conflict with the upright ones put into the ASCII range, unless one does something else: Say using the math sans-serif upright for the upright. But that isn’t right either, as someone, now that both serif and sans-serif math styles are available, may want to use them to indicate semantically different math objects.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 19:08, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/2016 4:28 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 15 May 2016, at 15:37, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 5/14/2016 7:11 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>>> In order to align with Unicode, \setupmathematics might have Latin shape options, as the Greek ‘lcgreek’ and ‘ucgreek', say ‘lclatin' and ‘uclatin', both defaulting to ’italic’. Unicode added the Latin italic symbols to the Math Alphanumeric Symbols range, so the upright letters are inaccessible when italic is assigned to the Basic Latin (ASCII) range.
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure what you mean. One can use \mathupright if needed. We support all the alphabets and these are independent of the basic latin range.
>> 
>> Traditionally constants are set in upright and variables in italic. So constants like “log” etc., are set in upright. It is not used rigorously because of past typographical limitations, but one might in principle do that, cf. the example below, where the integral differential “d” is set in upright to disambiguate relative the function named “d”.
>> 
>> When Unicode added math styles, it added italics, expecting the ASCII range to be upright, which would be normal if using a text editor that does not translate math into italics. But the TeX legacy is the opposite.
>> 
>> ----
>> \setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]
>> 
>> \startformula
>> \startalign
>>   I &= ∫_S d(x)\, dx \NR
>>   I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, dx \NR
>>   I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
>>   I &= ∫_S 𝑑(x)\, \mathupright{d} x \NR
>> \stopalign
>> \stopformula
> 
> well, i guess unicode assumed messing with math input characters anyway (given that some alphabets have holes) and a normal upright alphabet would have made sense (after all emojs get added by the dozen every time and there is no end at that so why on math)

I do not know why it wasn’t added, but it is te same with the Greek letters, for which there are special options.

Another example is the bold italic, that in the past wasn’t available much in typography, so one substituted the bold upright. But both are now available in Unicode, so it would not pose the same problem.

> anyway, so you want no mapping then, so this means something like
> 
> \unprotect
>    \let\mathitalic\mathdefault
>    \appendtoks
>        \edef\p_default{\mathematicsparameter\c!default}%
>        \ifx\p_default\v!normal
>          \let\mathdefault\mathupright
>        \else
>          \let\mathdefault\mathitalic
>        \fi
>    \to \everysetupmathematics
> \protect
> 
> \setupmathematics[default=normal]
> 
> (where of course we default to default=italic)

Yes, but perhaps another name than “default”.

> i have no problem adding that (basically one can even go as far as disabling every mapping assuming pure unicode input but i guess that users then would still ask for \mathfoo commands)

I think it is simplest to just align with Unicode.

> and of course we need more math fonts that have monospace (one is in the making in the gyre project)

It is available in the STIX fonts. These, and the sans-serif math styles are added in error of the idea of expressing math semantics, as pure math uses serifs, and applied sciences may use sans-serif. In computer code, in the past, like the 1980s, one did not care about monospace in books, and there is no semantic difference between styles. Keywords might for example be displayed i bold, but there is not semantic difference to when they are not.

Perhaps TeX commands might use the monospace math styles. Then the backslash “\” would not be needed. But right now, input would be cumbersome.



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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/15/2016 7:42 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:

>> (where of course we default to default=italic)
>
> Yes, but perhaps another name than “default”.

well, it is \mathdefault that is used and then gets set ... so default 
suits well (something latin in the name just sounds weird)

>> i have no problem adding that (basically one can even go as far as disabling every mapping assuming pure unicode input but i guess that users then would still ask for \mathfoo commands)
>
> I think it is simplest to just align with Unicode.

i guess many math users don't agree with you as tex lingua and behaviour 
is kind of default ... also, it will take a while before wordprocessors 
provide the right visual clues

>> and of course we need more math fonts that have monospace (one is in the making in the gyre project)
>
> It is available in the STIX fonts. These, and the sans-serif math styles are added in error of the idea of expressing math semantics, as pure math uses serifs, and applied sciences may use sans-serif. In computer code, in the past, like the 1980s, one did not care about monospace in books, and there is no semantic difference between styles. Keywords might for example be displayed i bold, but there is not semantic difference to when they are not.

pure math is fuzzy ... many domains and habits

> Perhaps TeX commands might use the monospace math styles. Then the backslash “\” would not be needed. But right now, input would be cumbersome.

there will always be some kind of escape

also, the lack of an upright alphabet in unicode will always make some 
'x' in the input either math of text so one also needs to indicate where 
math starts and ends

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/15/2016 7:28 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> On 15 May 2016, at 19:12, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/2016 6:36 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15 May 2016, at 16:44, Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> \appendtoks \rm \to \everymathematics
>>>
>>> Here is another variation: using the sans-serif math styles, combining with the suggestion in the “Nolimits” thread. It would save the effort having to change all variables into italics by hand, but otherwise, just a hack. (It seems that \diff is defined, though I haven’t found a reference for it.)
>>>
>>> \setupbodyfont[xits,10pt]
>>>
>>> \appendtoks
>>>  \catcode`𝖽=\activecatcode
>>>  \letcharcode `𝖽 \diff
>>> \to \everymathematics
>>>
>>> \startformula
>>>  \startalign
>>>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, 𝖽 x \NR
>>>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, \diff x \NR
>>>    I &= ∫_S d(x)\, {\mathupright d} x \NR
>>>  \stopalign
>>> \stopformula
>>
>> What do you mean with change by hand ... isn't that what context can do for you? Operate on all those axes ... (\tf is the upright one). There are extensive mapping mechanisms so best user them.
>
> The idea is to follow Unicode math styles in the input, so the serif upright styles must be in the ASCII range—there are no special math styles for those. Right now, in TeX code, one normally uses the in the ASCII range for math italic. So all variables, now in the ASCII range must be changed to Unicode math italic in order to not conflict with the upright ones put into the ASCII range, unless one does something else: Say using the math sans-serif upright for the upright. But that isn’t right either, as someone, now that both serif and sans-serif math styles are available, may want to use them to indicate semantically different math objects.

well, there is no

MATHEMATICAL UPRIGHT SMALL X

so till then we have to deal with two kinds of input and an explicit 
document default

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 19:59, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/2016 7:42 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>>> (where of course we default to default=italic)
>> 
>> Yes, but perhaps another name than “default”.
> 
> well, it is \mathdefault that is used and then gets set ... so default suits well (something latin in the name just sounds weird)

Well, you are the man.

>>> i have no problem adding that (basically one can even go as far as disabling every mapping assuming pure unicode input but i guess that users then would still ask for \mathfoo commands)
>> 
>> I think it is simplest to just align with Unicode.
> 
> i guess many math users don't agree with you as tex lingua and behaviour is kind of default ... also, it will take a while before wordprocessors provide the right visual clues

I just mean, add such extras as the request com along, if you so like. Using Unicode is tricky, to it need to evolve for some time.

>>> and of course we need more math fonts that have monospace (one is in the making in the gyre project)
>> 
>> It is available in the STIX fonts. These, and the sans-serif math styles are added in error of the idea of expressing math semantics, as pure math uses serifs, and applied sciences may use sans-serif. In computer code, in the past, like the 1980s, one did not care about monospace in books, and there is no semantic difference between styles. Keywords might for example be displayed i bold, but there is not semantic difference to when they are not.
> 
> pure math is fuzzy ... many domains and habits

Indeed, formally there are no standards, only traditions and individual preferences.

>> Perhaps TeX commands might use the monospace math styles. Then the backslash “\” would not be needed. But right now, input would be cumbersome.
> 
> there will always be some kind of escape

Hopefully from TeX as well. :-)

> also, the lack of an upright alphabet in unicode will always make some 'x' in the input either math of text so one also needs to indicate where math starts and ends

As far as Unicode is concerned, the ASCII and Greeks ranges are the upright ones. But those ranges will be used for math italic as long as there are no efficient input methods. Designing ones own keyboard map is a chore with so many math styles.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 20:06, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/2016 7:28 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:

>>> What do you mean with change by hand ... isn't that what context can do for you? Operate on all those axes ... (\tf is the upright one). There are extensive mapping mechanisms so best user them.
>> 
>> The idea is to follow Unicode math styles in the input, so the serif upright styles must be in the ASCII range—there are no special math styles for those. Right now, in TeX code, one normally uses the in the ASCII range for math italic. So all variables, now in the ASCII range must be changed to Unicode math italic in order to not conflict with the upright ones put into the ASCII range, unless one does something else: Say using the math sans-serif upright for the upright. But that isn’t right either, as someone, now that both serif and sans-serif math styles are available, may want to use them to indicate semantically different math objects.
> 
> well, there is no
> 
> MATHEMATICAL UPRIGHT SMALL X
> 
> so till then we have to deal with two kinds of input and an explicit document default

Indeed, and users are conservative, so it might be forever. But if efficient input methods come along, then using the ASCII and Greek ranges for upright math style, apparently the Unicode intent, might be useful.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/15/2016 8:31 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:

>> there will always be some kind of escape
>
> Hopefully from TeX as well. :-)

you can use ms word (which has tex like math but with a gui) but 
eventually typesetting will become a niche and end up in the arts but i 
will probably not live long enough to see that happen

>> also, the lack of an upright alphabet in unicode will always make some 'x' in the input either math of text so one also needs to indicate where math starts and ends
>
> As far as Unicode is concerned, the ASCII and Greeks ranges are the upright ones. But those ranges will be used for math italic as long as there are no efficient input methods. Designing ones own keyboard map is a chore with so many math styles.

well, law, week i heard about emoticons in different colors as well as 
gender so maybe some day we will have a math upright alphabet to 
distinguish it from regular latin

Hans

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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 20:42, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/2016 8:31 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>>> there will always be some kind of escape
>> 
>> Hopefully from TeX as well. :-)
> 
> you can use ms word (which has tex like math but with a gui)

That falls far short, though there mathematicians using that too, thinking TeX has too a steep learning curve. Perhaps there is an open source alternative.

> but eventually typesetting will become a niche and end up in the arts but i will probably not live long enough to see that happen

From the point of computer language design, TeX is not very good. One of the pitfalls of macro programming is that it gives the impression of lambda calculus efficiency without having it so one ends up spending a lot of time figuring out trivialities, which is why eventually was added, I gather.

>>> also, the lack of an upright alphabet in unicode will always make some 'x' in the input either math of text so one also needs to indicate where math starts and ends
>> 
>> As far as Unicode is concerned, the ASCII and Greeks ranges are the upright ones. But those ranges will be used for math italic as long as there are no efficient input methods. Designing ones own keyboard map is a chore with so many math styles.
> 
> well, law, week i heard about emoticons in different colors as well as gender so maybe some day we will have a math upright alphabet to distinguish it from regular latin

Doubt it, but I am checking it out:
http://unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2016-May/003632.html
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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/15/2016 10:06 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> On 15 May 2016, at 20:42, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/2016 8:31 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>
>>>> there will always be some kind of escape
>>>
>>> Hopefully from TeX as well. :-)
>>
>> you can use ms word (which has tex like math but with a gui)
>
> That falls far short, though there mathematicians using that too, thinking TeX has too a steep learning curve. Perhaps there is an open source alternative.
>
>> but eventually typesetting will become a niche and end up in the arts but i will probably not live long enough to see that happen
>
> From the point of computer language design, TeX is not very good. One of the pitfalls of macro programming is that it gives the impression of lambda calculus efficiency without having it so one ends up spending a lot of time figuring out trivialities, which is why eventually was added, I gather.

it's not that bad .. the tex language has a certain charm that one needs 
to get accustomed to (as does metapost) ... and, combined with lua it's 
even more fun

>>>> also, the lack of an upright alphabet in unicode will always make some 'x' in the input either math of text so one also needs to indicate where math starts and ends
>>>
>>> As far as Unicode is concerned, the ASCII and Greeks ranges are the upright ones. But those ranges will be used for math italic as long as there are no efficient input methods. Designing ones own keyboard map is a chore with so many math styles.
>>
>> well, law, week i heard about emoticons in different colors as well as gender so maybe some day we will have a math upright alphabet to distinguish it from regular latin
>
> Doubt it, but I am checking it out:
> http://unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2016-May/003632.html


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 23:18, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
>>> but eventually typesetting will become a niche and end up in the arts but i will probably not live long enough to see that happen
>> 
>> From the point of computer language design, TeX is not very good. One of the pitfalls of macro programming is that it gives the impression of lambda calculus efficiency without having it so one ends up spending a lot of time figuring out trivialities, which is why eventually was added, I gather.
> 
> it's not that bad .. the tex language has a certain charm that one needs to get accustomed to (as does metapost) ... and, combined with lua it's even more fun

Ideally, there should have been only one language with lambda capacity, and better syntax, though it is a problem figuring out what it might be.



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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 16 May 2016, at 01:00, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/2016 11:55 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 15 May 2016, at 23:18, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> but eventually typesetting will become a niche and end up in the arts but i will probably not live long enough to see that happen
>>>> 
>>>> From the point of computer language design, TeX is not very good. One of the pitfalls of macro programming is that it gives the impression of lambda calculus efficiency without having it so one ends up spending a lot of time figuring out trivialities, which is why eventually was added, I gather.
>>> 
>>> it's not that bad .. the tex language has a certain charm that one needs to get accustomed to (as does metapost) ... and, combined with lua it's even more fun
>> 
>> Ideally, there should have been only one language with lambda capacity, and better syntax, though it is a problem figuring out what it might be.
> 
> just look at how many programming languages are there and will be there (no surprise with billions of people and taste)
> 
> you see the same with markup languages: people want simple, then need more and so simple becomes more and when not well thought about beforehand simple then becomes ugly and it all starts anew

Indeed computer tend to have natural life cycles, after they have matured, further development becomes difficult.

> interesting tex was flexible enough to survive many decades

Other survivors are C, C++, Scheme. With TeX, change may start as with Lua, only some better syntax for text input.

I experimented a bit with giving Guile a C++ API, and then then there is a problem with that that C++ is statically typed whereas Guile is dynamic. For example, Guile does not distinguish statically between different types of numbers: integers, rationals, etc, so the proper way from the point of C++ is to only have open number type. But static typing is important in optimization.

And giving implement traditional function syntax on top of Guile does not work well, because (f, x_1, …, x_k) does not correspond semantically exactly to f(x_1, …, x_n). And there is a problem with the Scheme strict evaluation.

So such issues lead towards to the design of a new language, rather than relying on an already existing.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/16/2016 10:27 AM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> On 16 May 2016, at 01:00, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/2016 11:55 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15 May 2016, at 23:18, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> but eventually typesetting will become a niche and end up in the arts but i will probably not live long enough to see that happen
>>>>>
>>>>> From the point of computer language design, TeX is not very good. One of the pitfalls of macro programming is that it gives the impression of lambda calculus efficiency without having it so one ends up spending a lot of time figuring out trivialities, which is why eventually was added, I gather.
>>>>
>>>> it's not that bad .. the tex language has a certain charm that one needs to get accustomed to (as does metapost) ... and, combined with lua it's even more fun
>>>
>>> Ideally, there should have been only one language with lambda capacity, and better syntax, though it is a problem figuring out what it might be.
>>
>> just look at how many programming languages are there and will be there (no surprise with billions of people and taste)
>>
>> you see the same with markup languages: people want simple, then need more and so simple becomes more and when not well thought about beforehand simple then becomes ugly and it all starts anew
>
> Indeed computer tend to have natural life cycles, after they have matured, further development becomes difficult.
>
>> interesting tex was flexible enough to survive many decades
>
> Other survivors are C, C++, Scheme. With TeX, change may start as with Lua, only some better syntax for text input.

that always depend on the content; for complex docs tex or xml is ok 
(and best)

> I experimented a bit with giving Guile a C++ API, and then then there is a problem with that that C++ is statically typed whereas Guile is dynamic. For example, Guile does not distinguish statically between different types of numbers: integers, rationals, etc, so the proper way from the point of C++ is to only have open number type. But static typing is important in optimization.
>
> And giving implement traditional function syntax on top of Guile does not work well, because (f, x_1, …, x_k) does not correspond semantically exactly to f(x_1, …, x_n). And there is a problem with the Scheme strict evaluation.
>
> So such issues lead towards to the design of a new language, rather than relying on an already existing.

and then the not foreseen limitations in that language and ugly 
extensions spoil it ... (btw, the nice thing about lua is that it's so 
stable)

Hans

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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 16 May 2016, at 10:48, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

>>> interesting tex was flexible enough to survive many decades
>> 
>> Other survivors are C, C++, Scheme. With TeX, change may start as with Lua, only some better syntax for text input.
> 
> that always depend on the content; for complex docs tex or xml is ok (and best)

The TeX syntax is too loose to do input that is close to the input. For example, in math, if properly parsed, the "{…}” can often be replaced by the normal “(…)”, and the the engine can decide to remove them when unnecessary, as in say e^(x+y).

>> So such issues lead towards to the design of a new language, rather than relying on an already existing.
> 
> and then the not foreseen limitations in that language and ugly extensions spoil it ... (btw, the nice thing about lua is that it's so stable)

One might focus on different parts communicating via the semantics of the underlying engine. Then with extensions, it is not necessary to know the syntax of other additions when writing the code. This is roughly how pure math works, and also the point extensible computer languages to get stuck on. And this is alos how Lua was added ro TeX.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/16/2016 10:59 AM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> On 16 May 2016, at 10:48, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>>>> interesting tex was flexible enough to survive many decades
>>>
>>> Other survivors are C, C++, Scheme. With TeX, change may start as with Lua, only some better syntax for text input.
>>
>> that always depend on the content; for complex docs tex or xml is ok (and best)
>
> The TeX syntax is too loose to do input that is close to the input. For example, in math, if properly parsed, the "{…}” can often be replaced by the normal “(…)”, and the the engine can decide to remove them when unnecessary, as in say e^(x+y).

asciimath tries to do that (is supported in context) but it has to be 
used very structured in order to not run into its weird aspects

>>> So such issues lead towards to the design of a new language, rather than relying on an already existing.
>>
>> and then the not foreseen limitations in that language and ugly extensions spoil it ... (btw, the nice thing about lua is that it's so stable)
>
> One might focus on different parts communicating via the semantics of the underlying engine. Then with extensions, it is not necessary to know the syntax of other additions when writing the code. This is roughly how pure math works, and also the point extensible computer languages to get stuck on. And this is alos how Lua was added ro TeX.
>
>


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 16 May 2016, at 11:10, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/16/2016 10:59 AM, Hans Åberg wrote:

>> The TeX syntax is too loose to do input that is close to the input. For example, in math, if properly parsed, the "{…}” can often be replaced by the normal “(…)”, and the the engine can decide to remove them when unnecessary, as in say e^(x+y).
> 
> asciimath tries to do that (is supported in context) but it has to be used very structured in order to not run into its weird aspects

I worked on a theorem proof assistant, which then checks that the math is correct, but it then turned out complicated to write TeX code.


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 May 2016, at 22:06, Hans Åberg <haberg-1@telia.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 15 May 2016, at 20:42, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> 
>> On 5/15/2016 8:31 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:

>>>> also, the lack of an upright alphabet in unicode will always make some 'x' in the input either math of text so one also needs to indicate where math starts and ends
>>> 
>>> As far as Unicode is concerned, the ASCII and Greeks ranges are the upright ones. But those ranges will be used for math italic as long as there are no efficient input methods. Designing ones own keyboard map is a chore with so many math styles.
>> 
>> well, law, week i heard about emoticons in different colors as well as gender so maybe some day we will have a math upright alphabet to distinguish it from regular latin
> 
> Doubt it, but I am checking it out:
> http://unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2016-May/003632.html

There were no responses from the consortium here, so it means that if one should stick to the Unicode model, where the upright styles are unified with the Basic Latin and Greek groups, \setupmathematics should have options added like:
  lcletters=[normal|italic], ucletters=[normal|italic]


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/16/2016 9:15 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> On 15 May 2016, at 22:06, Hans Åberg <haberg-1@telia.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15 May 2016, at 20:42, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/15/2016 8:31 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>>>>> also, the lack of an upright alphabet in unicode will always make some 'x' in the input either math of text so one also needs to indicate where math starts and ends
>>>>
>>>> As far as Unicode is concerned, the ASCII and Greeks ranges are the upright ones. But those ranges will be used for math italic as long as there are no efficient input methods. Designing ones own keyboard map is a chore with so many math styles.
>>>
>>> well, law, week i heard about emoticons in different colors as well as gender so maybe some day we will have a math upright alphabet to distinguish it from regular latin
>>
>> Doubt it, but I am checking it out:
>> http://unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2016-May/003632.html
>
> There were no responses from the consortium here, so it means that if one should stick to the Unicode model, where the upright styles are unified with the Basic Latin and Greek groups, \setupmathematics should have options added like:
>   lcletters=[normal|italic], ucletters=[normal|italic]

what is wrong with

\starttext

\setupmathematics[default=normal]

$a = b$

\setupmathematics[default=italic]

$a = \tf b$

\stoptext

(i see no reason for different treatment for lc and uc)


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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 16 Jun 2016, at 23:48, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 6/16/2016 9:15 PM, Hans Åberg wrote:

>> There were no responses from the consortium here, so it means that if one should stick to the Unicode model, where the upright styles are unified with the Basic Latin and Greek groups, \setupmathematics should have options added like:
>>  lcletters=[normal|italic], ucletters=[normal|italic]

> (i see no reason for different treatment for lc and uc)

No, there is no reason - I just got it from math-inl.mkiv.

> what is wrong with
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \setupmathematics[default=normal]
> 
> $a = b$
> 
> \setupmathematics[default=italic]
> 
> $a = \tf b$
> 
> \stoptext

That is fine - it is not mentioned on the page
  http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupmathematics

The idea is avoiding clashes between variables and constants, like this:

\starttext

\setupmathematics[default=normal]

$𝑒 = ∑_{𝑖=1}^∞ e^{i-𝑖}$

\setupmathematics[default=italic]

$𝑒 = ∑_{𝑖=1}^∞ e^{i-𝑖}$

\stoptext

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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:02:48 +0200
Hans Åberg <haberg-1@telia.com> wrote:

> The idea is avoiding clashes between variables and constants, like
> this:
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \setupmathematics[default=normal]
> 
> $𝑒 = ∑_{𝑖=1}^∞ e^{i-𝑖}$
> 
> \setupmathematics[default=italic]
> 
> $𝑒 = ∑_{𝑖=1}^∞ e^{i-𝑖}$

Very, very poor mathematical style...

If you really want to use a variable "e", this would call for the use
of the function \exp() to be readable.

Alan
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Re: Latin setupmathematics

[Hans Åberg]

> On 17 Jun 2016, at 06:20, Alan BRASLAU <alan.braslau@cea.fr> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:02:48 +0200
> Hans Åberg <haberg-1@telia.com> wrote:
> 
>> The idea is avoiding clashes between variables and constants, like
>> this:
>> 
>> \starttext
>> 
>> \setupmathematics[default=normal]
>> 
>> $𝑒 = ∑_{𝑖=1}^∞ e^{i-𝑖}$
>> 
>> \setupmathematics[default=italic]
>> 
>> $𝑒 = ∑_{𝑖=1}^∞ e^{i-𝑖}$
> 
> Very, very poor mathematical style...
> 
> If you really want to use a variable "e", this would call for the use
> of the function \exp() to be readable.

Unicode has added characters to enable such writing. Also, \exp is already defined to “exp”, for example for the exponential map in differential geometry:
\startformula
  \exp_x: M_x → M
\stopformula

Here, the “:” expands in original TeX as a ratio operator, but Unicode has a special symbol for that, ∶ RATIO U+2236.


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