Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Robert Blackstone]

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On 9 Oct 2014, at 08:52 , Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Am I correct in that you would enforce a single concrete
> citation format throughout the document that way?
No, it would just change the Author-field for one particular entry that is causing trouble.
One can correct all faulty entries that way of cause. 

>  You were asking for comments
> about your solution, I hope the following remarks are informative to
> you.
> 
> My .bib file is being autogenerated by Mendeley, a reference manager,
> and changes often in terms of contents. That workflow seems
> incompatible with your solution. Furthermore, I may not let the
> authors appear in citations with all their names every time, it should
> be limited to the first time (the APA 6 rules, that I referred to).
> With your solution, 1 out of n citations would be correct, while in
> the current situation (without manual intervention) n-1 out of n would
> be correct (all but the first).
> 
 I clearly misunderstood your problem, which, as I see now, thanks to your remarks, is rather different from mine. 
I would not have sent you my silly answer if I had known this.

On the other hand, I too need citations and bibliographic references to appear in different forms, three in my case:
In the Bibliography with Author: Last name, first name, 
In the text and footnotes the first time with Author(s): First name(s), last name(s),  and full title of the work, and in all the following citations with Author(s): Last name(s) only and short title of the work. 
I could think of no other way to accomplish this than to generate the .bbl, make two copies, “Inversed Author” and “Short Title”, make the necessary changes in these .bbl’s, including the cite-key to mark it for these two alternatives. I should add that I could not use apa  but an apa-like, modified in many details which also forced me to tweak the .bbl.

It all seems a lot of work but it is straightforward, it works for me and it protects me from an enormous amount of frustration.
(And I’m glad my .bib-file is not autogenerated.)

Best regards,

Robert Blackstone




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Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Robert Blackstone]

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On 6 Oct 2014, at 23:33 , Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com>
 wrote:

> Who can offer a short-term solution to this problem? All I want is to
> reference a work, listing all of the authors' names, in APA6 format. If
> necessary I'll prescribe the output format manually.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Sander Maijers
> 
>>> 
>>> \setupbibtex[database={references/bibliographic_database},sort=author]
>>>> \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
>>>> 
>>>> \starttext
>>>>    \cite[extras={, p.~3}][Zhou2012]
>>>>    \cite[Zhou2012]
>>>> \stoptext
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Incorrectly produces:
>>> 
>>>> (Zhou et al., 2012, p. 3) (Zhou et al., 2012)
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Instead of:
>>> 
>>>> (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012, p. 3) (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012)
>>> 
>>> 

What I would do is, for the final processing, not to load the .bib-file but the .bbl that was generated in the previous run. You can open that file in any text processor (I mostly use TeXShop) and manually change the Author for this particular entry. In the .bbl the field Author has this form: \author[]{}[]{}{} .

You should be able to solve your problem by putting inside the last pair of brackets exactly how you would like your authors et. al. to appear in your output. Place the whole lot again between brackets:  \author[]{}[]{}{{Zhou, Tom Chao and Lyu, Michael R. and King, Irwin}} or whatever you want.

But again,  don’t input the bib-file. Every time you do that the old .bbl is overwritten and your correction will be lost. ConTeXt uses the .bbl, not the .bib.

I hope this helps.
Best regards,

Robert Blackstone


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Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Sander Maijers]

Thank you Robert! I was planning to respond to your private message as
well. Am I correct in that you would enforce a single concrete
citation format throughout the document that way? In that case, I' m
sorry to report that does not help me. You were asking for comments
about your solution, I hope the following remarks are informative to
you.

My .bib file is being autogenerated by Mendeley, a reference manager,
and changes often in terms of contents. That workflow seems
incompatible with your solution. Furthermore, I may not let the
authors appear in citations with all their names every time, it should
be limited to the first time (the APA 6 rules, that I referred to).
With your solution, 1 out of n citations would be correct, while in
the current situation (without manual intervention) n-1 out of n would
be correct (all but the first).

So, am I out of luck? Should I maybe have an 'invisible' citation with
the first citation, spelling out that citation myself, while still
recording that the work was cited and is to be listed in the
bibliography.

Who can tell me please how to hide \cite output in the neatest way
possible, while keeping the semantics in tact (i.e. establish that a
reference was made)?

Best,

Sander Maijers


On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Robert Blackstone
<blackstone.robert@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 6 Oct 2014, at 23:33 , Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>
> Who can offer a short-term solution to this problem? All I want is to
> reference a work, listing all of the authors' names, in APA6 format. If
> necessary I'll prescribe the output format manually.
>
> Best,
>
> Sander Maijers
>
>
> \setupbibtex[database={references/bibliographic_database},sort=author]
>
> \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
>
> \starttext
>    \cite[extras={, p.~3}][Zhou2012]
>    \cite[Zhou2012]
> \stoptext
>
>
> Incorrectly produces:
>
> (Zhou et al., 2012, p. 3) (Zhou et al., 2012)
>
>
> Instead of:
>
> (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012, p. 3) (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012)
>
>
>
>
> What I would do is, for the final processing, not to load the .bib-file but
> the .bbl that was generated in the previous run. You can open that file in
> any text processor (I mostly use TeXShop) and manually change the Author for
> this particular entry. In the .bbl the field Author has this form:
> \author[]{}[]{}{} .
>
> You should be able to solve your problem by putting inside the last pair of
> brackets exactly how you would like your authors et. al. to appear in your
> output. Place the whole lot again between brackets:  \author[]{}[]{}{{Zhou,
> Tom Chao and Lyu, Michael R. and King, Irwin}} or whatever you want.
>
> But again,  don’t input the bib-file. Every time you do that the old .bbl is
> overwritten and your correction will be lost. ConTeXt uses the .bbl, not the
> .bib.
>
> I hope this helps.
> Best regards,
>
> Robert Blackstone
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 16:12:43 +0200
Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com> wrote:

> Who can tell me please how to hide \cite output in the neatest way
> possible, while keeping the semantics in tact (i.e. establish that a
> reference was made)?

\nocite
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Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2014 16:12:43 +0200
Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com> wrote:

> My .bib file is being autogenerated by Mendeley, a reference manager,
> and changes often in terms of contents. That workflow seems
> incompatible with your solution. Furthermore, I may not let the
> authors appear in citations with all their names every time, it should
> be limited to the first time (the APA 6 rules, that I referred to).
> With your solution, 1 out of n citations would be correct, while in
> the current situation (without manual intervention) n-1 out of n would
> be correct (all but the first).

Although it is not yet "production" ready, we are working on this issue
with the new mkiv-bibliography subsystem. The rendering of citations
and the rendering of bibliography lists can be quite complicated, as
you are showing.

I note a second issue here: As you are working with an
autogenerated .bib file, you may have less control over its contents,
so playing with the field contents is not a solution.

Alan
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___________________________________________________________________________________

(MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Sander Maijers]

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Hi all,

I use

> This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.79.1 (TeX Live 2014/dev) (rev 4972)
>
> ConTeXt  ver: 2014.09.27 14:46 MKIV beta  fmt: 2014.9.30  int:
> english/english
>

I want citations to respect APA rules, as described here:
http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/11/the-proper-use-of-et-al-in-apa-style.htm
l

*Problem*: when I cite a work with three authors, "et al."  appears in the
first citation.

*Example*:

\setupbibtex[database={references/bibliographic_database},sort=author]
> \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
>
> \starttext
>     \cite[extras={, p.~3}][Zhou2012]
>     \cite[Zhou2012]
> \stoptext
>

Incorrectly produces:

> (Zhou et al., 2012, p. 3) (Zhou et al., 2012)
>

Instead of:

> (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012, p. 3) (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012)


Where the BibTeX entry is

> @inproceedings{Zhou2012,
> address = {New York, New York, USA},
> annote = {2/5},
> author = {Zhou, Tom Chao and Lyu, Michael R. and King, Irwin},
> booktitle = {Proceedings of the 21st international conference companion on
> World Wide Web - WWW '12 Companion},
> doi = {10.1145/2187980.2188201},
> isbn = {9781450312301},
> keywords = {classification,community question answering,question routing},
> month = apr,
> pages = {783},
> publisher = {ACM Press},
> title = {{A classification-based approach to question routing in community
> question answering}},
> url = {http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2187980.2188201},
> year = {2012}
> }
>

I hope someone can help me with this.

Best regards,
Sander Maijers

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Alan BRASLAU]

Hello,

These are the sort of details that we are trying to address with the
new bibliography subsystem. The APA rules (reference: Publication
Manual of the APA, 6th edition) give many special cases, some of which
can be a bit tricky.

The mkii/mkiv bibliography module that you are using does a good job but
is not so sophisticated. The new mkiv rewrite is (unfortunately) still
work in progress and is not quite "production" ready. The new subsystem
was one topic of the recent ConTeXt meeting.

You can continue to address bibliography questions to the list, or to me
directly as I am presently working on this with Hans "in my spare
time" (Luigi and Thomas are also actively involved). This does not
solve your immediate problem, however.

Alan


On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:19:36 +0200
Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I use
> 
> > This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.79.1 (TeX Live 2014/dev) (rev 4972)
> >
> > ConTeXt  ver: 2014.09.27 14:46 MKIV beta  fmt: 2014.9.30  int:
> > english/english
> >
> 
> I want citations to respect APA rules, as described here:
> http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/11/the-proper-use-of-et-al-in-apa-style.htm
> l
> 
> *Problem*: when I cite a work with three authors, "et al."  appears
> in the first citation.
> 
> *Example*:
> 
> \setupbibtex[database={references/bibliographic_database},sort=author]
> > \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
> >
> > \starttext
> >     \cite[extras={, p.~3}][Zhou2012]
> >     \cite[Zhou2012]
> > \stoptext
> >
> 
> Incorrectly produces:
> 
> > (Zhou et al., 2012, p. 3) (Zhou et al., 2012)
> >
> 
> Instead of:
> 
> > (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012, p. 3) (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012)
> 
> 
> Where the BibTeX entry is
> 
> > @inproceedings{Zhou2012,
> > address = {New York, New York, USA},
> > annote = {2/5},
> > author = {Zhou, Tom Chao and Lyu, Michael R. and King, Irwin},
> > booktitle = {Proceedings of the 21st international conference
> > companion on World Wide Web - WWW '12 Companion},
> > doi = {10.1145/2187980.2188201},
> > isbn = {9781450312301},
> > keywords = {classification,community question answering,question
> > routing}, month = apr,
> > pages = {783},
> > publisher = {ACM Press},
> > title = {{A classification-based approach to question routing in
> > community question answering}},
> > url = {http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2187980.2188201},
> > year = {2012}
> > }
> >
> 
> I hope someone can help me with this.
> 
> Best regards,
> Sander Maijers



-- 
Alan Braslau
CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC
CNRS URA 2464
Orme des Merisiers
91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE
tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15
fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86
mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr
___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Sander Maijers]

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Hi Alan,

I'm writing a thesis in ConTeXt so I'm keen to make this work. I can test
things, and I hope that the basics of APA are covered already? Also, a
temporary solution could be to allow explicit choice of the citation format
and to rely on the author to make the proper choice, as long as automatic
formatting hasn't been completed. All I want in the short term is to keep
track of references to show them in a proper format - it needn't be easy
and/or automatic for now.

Best,​

Sander Maijers

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:32 PM, Alan BRASLAU <alan.braslau@cea.fr> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> These are the sort of details that we are trying to address with the
> new bibliography subsystem. The APA rules (reference: Publication
> Manual of the APA, 6th edition) give many special cases, some of which
> can be a bit tricky.
>
> The mkii/mkiv bibliography module that you are using does a good job but
> is not so sophisticated. The new mkiv rewrite is (unfortunately) still
> work in progress and is not quite "production" ready. The new subsystem
> was one topic of the recent ConTeXt meeting.
>
> You can continue to address bibliography questions to the list, or to me
> directly as I am presently working on this with Hans "in my spare
> time" (Luigi and Thomas are also actively involved). This does not
> solve your immediate problem, however.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:19:36 +0200
> Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I use
> >
> > > This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.79.1 (TeX Live 2014/dev) (rev 4972)
> > >
> > > ConTeXt  ver: 2014.09.27 14:46 MKIV beta  fmt: 2014.9.30  int:
> > > english/english
> > >
> >
> > I want citations to respect APA rules, as described here:
> >
> http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/11/the-proper-use-of-et-al-in-apa-style.htm
> > l
> >
> > *Problem*: when I cite a work with three authors, "et al."  appears
> > in the first citation.
> >
> > *Example*:
> >
> > \setupbibtex[database={references/bibliographic_database},sort=author]
> > > \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
> > >
> > > \starttext
> > >     \cite[extras={, p.~3}][Zhou2012]
> > >     \cite[Zhou2012]
> > > \stoptext
> > >
> >
> > Incorrectly produces:
> >
> > > (Zhou et al., 2012, p. 3) (Zhou et al., 2012)
> > >
> >
> > Instead of:
> >
> > > (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012, p. 3) (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012)
> >
> >
> > Where the BibTeX entry is
> >
> > > @inproceedings{Zhou2012,
> > > address = {New York, New York, USA},
> > > annote = {2/5},
> > > author = {Zhou, Tom Chao and Lyu, Michael R. and King, Irwin},
> > > booktitle = {Proceedings of the 21st international conference
> > > companion on World Wide Web - WWW '12 Companion},
> > > doi = {10.1145/2187980.2188201},
> > > isbn = {9781450312301},
> > > keywords = {classification,community question answering,question
> > > routing}, month = apr,
> > > pages = {783},
> > > publisher = {ACM Press},
> > > title = {{A classification-based approach to question routing in
> > > community question answering}},
> > > url = {http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2187980.2188201},
> > > year = {2012}
> > > }
> > >
> >
> > I hope someone can help me with this.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Sander Maijers
>
>
>
> --
> Alan Braslau
> CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC
> CNRS URA 2464
> Orme des Merisiers
> 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE
> tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15
> fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86
> mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Thangalin]

Hi,

One more note about "et al.": the period can get duplicated. For example:

Mohammad Allahbakhsh, Aleksandar Ignjatovic, Boualem Bena-
tallah, Seyed-Mehdi-Reza Beheshti and Norman Foo et al.. An
analytic approach to people evaluation in crowdsourcing systems.

@article{allahbakhsh@crowdsourcing,
  author={Mohammad Allahbakhsh and Aleksandar Ignjatovic and Boualem
Benatallah and Seyed{-}Mehdi{-}Reza Beheshti and Norman Foo and Elisa
Bertino},
  title={An Analytic Approach to People Evaluation in Crowdsourcing Systems},
  journal={CoRR},
  year={2012},
  volume={abs/1211.3200},
  timestamp={Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:27:03 +0200},
  biburl={http://dblp.uni-trier.de/rec/bib/journals/corr/abs-1211-3200},
  bibsource={dblp computer science bibliography, http://dblp.org},
  url={http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.3200},
}

There should only be one period. I think this was mentioned a while
back and might be related to removing the period in cases where
punctuation (such as a question mark) already exists.
___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: (MKIV beta) APA citations: "et al." incorrectly written

[Sander Maijers]

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Who can offer a short-term solution to this problem? All I want is to
reference a work, listing all of the authors' names, in APA6 format. If
necessary I'll prescribe the output format manually.

Best,

Sander Maijers

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 8:32 PM, Alan BRASLAU <alan.braslau@cea.fr> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> These are the sort of details that we are trying to address with the
> new bibliography subsystem. The APA rules (reference: Publication
> Manual of the APA, 6th edition) give many special cases, some of which
> can be a bit tricky.
>
> The mkii/mkiv bibliography module that you are using does a good job but
> is not so sophisticated. The new mkiv rewrite is (unfortunately) still
> work in progress and is not quite "production" ready. The new subsystem
> was one topic of the recent ConTeXt meeting.
>
> You can continue to address bibliography questions to the list, or to me
> directly as I am presently working on this with Hans "in my spare
> time" (Luigi and Thomas are also actively involved). This does not
> solve your immediate problem, however.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:19:36 +0200
> Sander Maijers <s.n.maijers@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I use
> >
> > > This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.79.1 (TeX Live 2014/dev) (rev 4972)
> > >
> > > ConTeXt  ver: 2014.09.27 14:46 MKIV beta  fmt: 2014.9.30  int:
> > > english/english
> > >
> >
> > I want citations to respect APA rules, as described here:
> >
> http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/11/the-proper-use-of-et-al-in-apa-style.htm
> > l
> >
> > *Problem*: when I cite a work with three authors, "et al."  appears
> > in the first citation.
> >
> > *Example*:
> >
> > \setupbibtex[database={references/bibliographic_database},sort=author]
> > > \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
> > >
> > > \starttext
> > >     \cite[extras={, p.~3}][Zhou2012]
> > >     \cite[Zhou2012]
> > > \stoptext
> > >
> >
> > Incorrectly produces:
> >
> > > (Zhou et al., 2012, p. 3) (Zhou et al., 2012)
> > >
> >
> > Instead of:
> >
> > > (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012, p. 3) (Zhou, Lyu, & King, 2012)
> >
> >
> > Where the BibTeX entry is
> >
> > > @inproceedings{Zhou2012,
> > > address = {New York, New York, USA},
> > > annote = {2/5},
> > > author = {Zhou, Tom Chao and Lyu, Michael R. and King, Irwin},
> > > booktitle = {Proceedings of the 21st international conference
> > > companion on World Wide Web - WWW '12 Companion},
> > > doi = {10.1145/2187980.2188201},
> > > isbn = {9781450312301},
> > > keywords = {classification,community question answering,question
> > > routing}, month = apr,
> > > pages = {783},
> > > publisher = {ACM Press},
> > > title = {{A classification-based approach to question routing in
> > > community question answering}},
> > > url = {http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2187980.2188201},
> > > year = {2012}
> > > }
> > >
> >
> > I hope someone can help me with this.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Sander Maijers
>
>
>
> --
> Alan Braslau
> CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC
> CNRS URA 2464
> Orme des Merisiers
> 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE
> tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15
> fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86
> mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr
>

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