[NTG-context] https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[NTG-context] https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Jim]

Hi,

When I run Example 1 given there, I get three bullet symbols, but no
        "column N ..."
text.

Note that the
        \starttext
is *after* the \startitemize ... \stopitemize

Q1: Is my ConTeXt installation broken, or is the wiki page showing output
    that does not correspond to the input?

Q2: If the wiki page is inconsistent, is there an easy fix?

Q3: If my installation is correct, why do I get bullet symbols *before*
    \starttext ?

Thanks.

                                Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 18:01:
> Hi,
>
> When I run Example 1 given there, I get three bullet symbols, but no
>          "column N ..."
> text.
>
> Note that the
>          \starttext
> is *after* the \startitemize ... \stopitemize
>
> Q1: Is my ConTeXt installation broken, or is the wiki page showing output
>      that does not correspond to the input?
>
> Q2: If the wiki page is inconsistent, is there an easy fix?
>
> Q3: If my installation is correct, why do I get bullet symbols *before*
>      \starttext ?

The wiki adds \starttext at the start and \stoptext at the end of each 
example
and the \starttext/\stoptext pair which is part is just ignored.

When you try to run the example as is there is no text before \starttext 
because
no font has been loaded yet (you can add \setupbodyfont[modern] before
\startitemize to make the text visible).

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Jim]

On Tue, Jun  4, 2024 at 19:30 (+0200), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 18:01:
>> Hi,

>> When I run Example 1 given there, I get three bullet symbols, but no
>>          "column N ..."
>> text.

>> Note that the
>>          \starttext
>> is *after* the \startitemize ... \stopitemize

>> Q1: Is my ConTeXt installation broken, or is the wiki page showing output
>> that does not correspond to the input?

>> Q2: If the wiki page is inconsistent, is there an easy fix?

>> Q3: If my installation is correct, why do I get bullet symbols *before*
>>      \starttext ?

> The wiki adds \starttext at the start and \stoptext at the end of each
> example
> and the \starttext/\stoptext pair which is part is just ignored.

> When you try to run the example as is there is no text before \starttext
> because
> no font has been loaded yet (you can add \setupbodyfont[modern] before
> \startitemize to make the text visible).

Hi Wolfgang,

Thanks for the (prompt!) answer.

I did not realize the wiki software did that.  On reflection I suppose that
is useful in many (most?) cases.  But I'd argue that it is not always a good
thing, such as in this case.  (If nothing else, it might mislead a n00b
into thinking that you should get output for text preceding \starttext.)

If you (or some other knowledgeable person reading this) don't (doesn't)
mind another question,...
Is the bullet symbol not from some font?  If so, why is that font loaded in
time to see the bullet?

And finally, might it make sense for the wiki software to do something like
this:
        if grep '\\starttext' <the-wiki-example-to-be-compiled> >/dev/null 2>&1
        then
            process the example from the wiki
        else
            augment the wiki example with \starttext and \stoptext
            process the augmented wiki example
        fi

Cheers.
                                Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 19:48:

> I did not realize the wiki software did that.  On reflection I suppose that
> is useful in many (most?) cases.  But I'd argue that it is not always a good
> thing, such as in this case.  (If nothing else, it might mislead a n00b
> into thinking that you should get output for text preceding \starttext.)

The reason why you get no text isn't that you wrote it before \starttext 
but that no font was loaded yet. By default ConTeXt postpones the 
loading of the default fonts until \starttext because when you use a 
different font on your document this is normally before \starttext and 
with the postponing there is no need to load a unused font.

At the point where you load a font with \setupbodyfont text even if it 
appears before \starttext is shown as expected but this isn't recommended.

> If you (or some other knowledgeable person reading this) don't (doesn't)
> mind another question,...
> Is the bullet symbol not from some font?  If so, why is that font loaded in
> time to see the bullet?

When no font has been loaded yet with \setupbodyfont ConTeXt prints text 
which is put in a \hbox in a monospaced font as shown in the example below.

%%%% begin example
This is before \tex{starttext}.

\hbox{This is also before \tex{starttext}}

\starttext
This is after \tex{starttext}.
\stoptext
%%%% end example

Wolfgang
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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Taco Hoekwater]

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> On 4 Jun 2024, at 20:16, Wolfgang Schuster <wolfgang.schuster.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 19:48:
> 
>> I did not realize the wiki software did that.  On reflection I suppose that
>> is useful in many (most?) cases.  But I'd argue that it is not always a good
>> thing, such as in this case.  (If nothing else, it might mislead a n00b
>> into thinking that you should get output for text preceding \starttext.)

Here is the documentation for the <context> tag extension:

https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Help:Context

Best wishes,
Taco

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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Jim]

On Tue, Jun  4, 2024 at 20:31 (+0200), Taco Hoekwater wrote:

>> On 4 Jun 2024, at 20:16, Wolfgang Schuster <wolfgang.schuster.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 19:48:

>>> I did not realize the wiki software did that.  On reflection I suppose that
>>> is useful in many (most?) cases.  But I'd argue that it is not always a good
>>> thing, such as in this case.  (If nothing else, it might mislead a n00b
>>> into thinking that you should get output for text preceding \starttext.)

> Here is the documentation for the <context> tag extension:

> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Help:Context

Hi Taco,

thanks very much for the link.  But, ummm, what it says there seems to
contradict what Wolfgang told me in the other response to my message.

[[ I see Wolfgang edited the \blank wiki page to move the text in question
   to after \starttext, but I'm sure if you don't believe what I say in the
   next paragraph, you can grab the previous version. ]]

Specifically, the example in the (previous) \blank wiki page does, indeed,
have a \starttext and \stoptext.  So, according to the page you mention
above, another \starttext and \stoptext should *not* be added.  And yet the
(previous) \blank page example does print the text (as well as the bullets)
before the \starttext.  Is there a discrepancy between what
.../Help:Context says and what actually happens?

Thanks.
                                Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 21:29:
> On Tue, Jun  4, 2024 at 20:31 (+0200), Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> 
>>> On 4 Jun 2024, at 20:16, Wolfgang Schuster <wolfgang.schuster.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 19:48:
> 
>>>> I did not realize the wiki software did that.  On reflection I suppose that
>>>> is useful in many (most?) cases.  But I'd argue that it is not always a good
>>>> thing, such as in this case.  (If nothing else, it might mislead a n00b
>>>> into thinking that you should get output for text preceding \starttext.)
> 
>> Here is the documentation for the <context> tag extension:
> 
>> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Help:Context
> 
> Hi Taco,
> 
> thanks very much for the link.  But, ummm, what it says there seems to
> contradict what Wolfgang told me in the other response to my message.
> 
> [[ I see Wolfgang edited the \blank wiki page to move the text in question
>     to after \starttext, but I'm sure if you don't believe what I say in the
>     next paragraph, you can grab the previous version. ]]
> 
> Specifically, the example in the (previous) \blank wiki page does, indeed,
> have a \starttext and \stoptext.  So, according to the page you mention
> above, another \starttext and \stoptext should *not* be added.  And yet the
> (previous) \blank page example does print the text (as well as the bullets)
> before the \starttext.  Is there a discrepancy between what
> .../Help:Context says and what actually happens?

When you take a look at the settings which are applied here you can see 
\setupbodyfont[8pt] which is the reason why the text appears, compare

%%%% begin example
Before \tex{starttext}

\starttext
After \tex{starttext}.
\stoptext
%%%% end example

with

%%%% begin example
\setupbodyfont[12pt]

Before \tex{starttext}

\starttext
After \tex{starttext}.
\stoptext
%%%% end example

The second example loads a font before the text appear in the document 
which is the reason why you can see it.

Wolfgang
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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Jim]

On Tue, Jun  4, 2024 at 21:50 (+0200), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 21:29:
>> On Tue, Jun  4, 2024 at 20:31 (+0200), Taco Hoekwater wrote:

>>>> On 4 Jun 2024, at 20:16, Wolfgang Schuster <wolfgang.schuster.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 19:48:

>>>> > I did not realize the wiki software did that.  On reflection I suppose that
>>>> > is useful in many (most?) cases.  But I'd argue that it is not always a good
>>>> > thing, such as in this case.  (If nothing else, it might mislead a n00b
>>>> > into thinking that you should get output for text preceding \starttext.)

>>> Here is the documentation for the <context> tag extension:

>>> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Help:Context

>> Hi Taco,

>> thanks very much for the link.  But, ummm, what it says there seems to
>> contradict what Wolfgang told me in the other response to my message.

>> [[ I see Wolfgang edited the \blank wiki page to move the text in question
>> to after \starttext, but I'm sure if you don't believe what I say in the
>> next paragraph, you can grab the previous version. ]]

>> Specifically, the example in the (previous) \blank wiki page does, indeed,
>> have a \starttext and \stoptext.  So, according to the page you mention
>> above, another \starttext and \stoptext should *not* be added.  And yet the
>> (previous) \blank page example does print the text (as well as the bullets)
>> before the \starttext.  Is there a discrepancy between what
>> .../Help:Context says and what actually happens?

> When you take a look at the settings which are applied here you can see
> \setupbodyfont[8pt] which is the reason why the text appears, compare

> %%%% begin example
> Before \tex{starttext}

> \starttext
> After \tex{starttext}.
> \stoptext
> %%%% end example

> with

> %%%% begin example
> \setupbodyfont[12pt]

> Before \tex{starttext}

> \starttext
> After \tex{starttext}.
> \stoptext
> %%%% end example

> The second example loads a font before the text appear in the document which
> is the reason why you can see it.

Thanks Wolfgang,

all is now becoming clear.  :-)

                                Jim

P.S. Well, "all" about this, I still have lots of questions about other things.
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[NTG-context] Re: https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/blank

[Jim]

On Tue, Jun  4, 2024 at 20:14 (+0200), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Jim schrieb am 04.06.2024 um 19:48:

>> I did not realize the wiki software did that.  On reflection I suppose that
>> is useful in many (most?) cases.  But I'd argue that it is not always a good
>> thing, such as in this case.  (If nothing else, it might mislead a n00b
>> into thinking that you should get output for text preceding \starttext.)

> The reason why you get no text isn't that you wrote it before \starttext but
> that no font was loaded yet. By default ConTeXt postpones the loading of the
> default fonts until \starttext because when you use a different font on your
> document this is normally before \starttext and with the postponing there is
> no need to load a unused font.

> At the point where you load a font with \setupbodyfont text even if it
> appears before \starttext is shown as expected but this isn't recommended.

>> If you (or some other knowledgeable person reading this) don't (doesn't)
>> mind another question,...
>> Is the bullet symbol not from some font?  If so, why is that font loaded in
>> time to see the bullet?

> When no font has been loaded yet with \setupbodyfont ConTeXt prints text
> which is put in a \hbox in a monospaced font as shown in the example below.

> %%%% begin example
> This is before \tex{starttext}.

> \hbox{This is also before \tex{starttext}}

> \starttext
> This is after \tex{starttext}.
> \stoptext
> %%%% end example

Thanks again.  Without looking at the code, I (boldly) conclude that the
bullet is in an \hbox.

While I'm curious about why text in an \hbox is printed, I'm thinking that
I may not have need to know.  ;-)

                                Jim
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