Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[morgan.brassel]

Hi,

Sorry but I'm going to talk about indenting again. This time, it seems to me
that there is really something wrong with the indentnext=yes option. Look at the
following example, it speaks for itself (or at least I hope so).

\setupindenting[yes,medium]
\setupformulae[indentnext=yes]
\starttext

This is my first formula:
\startformula x = 1, \stopformula
and this line should not be indented because it's still in the same sentence.
There is no line skip in the source file, and no new paragraph created.

This is my second formula:
\startformula x = 2. \stopformula

This line has to be indented (and it is!), as this is truely a new paragraph.

\stoptext

The option indentnext=yes does not handle properly the first situation. What do
you think?

Thanks for your answers, and sorry to bother you again and again!
Morgan
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[Taco Hoekwater]

morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> The option indentnext=yes does not handle properly the first situation. What do
> you think?

That works for me as it should. My context: 2008.01.28, pdftex 1.40.5
What are your versions?

Best wishes,
Taco





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Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[morgan.brassel]

Selon Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:

> morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> > The option indentnext=yes does not handle properly the first situation.
> What do
> > you think?
>
> That works for me as it should. My context: 2008.01.28, pdftex 1.40.5
> What are your versions?

I'm using the context package in debian sid:
* context: 2008.01.02
* pdftex: 1.40.3

But I also tried with ConTeXt live, and the result is the same... Notice that
the line after the first formula should NOT be indented. How is it with your
installation?

>
> Best wishes,
> Taco
>
>
>
>
>
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
___________________________________________________________________________________
>


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[Taco Hoekwater]

morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> Selon Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:
> 
>> morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
>>> The option indentnext=yes does not handle properly the first situation.
>> What do
>>> you think?
>> That works for me as it should. My context: 2008.01.28, pdftex 1.40.5
>> What are your versions?
> 
> I'm using the context package in debian sid:
> * context: 2008.01.02
> * pdftex: 1.40.3
> 
> But I also tried with ConTeXt live, and the result is the same... Notice that
> the line after the first formula should NOT be indented. How is it with your
> installation?

Ah, misunderstood. You want

   \setupformulae[indentnext=auto]

Best wishes,
Taco
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[morgan.brassel]

Selon Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:

> morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> > Selon Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:
> >
> >> morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> >>> The option indentnext=yes does not handle properly the first situation.
> >> What do
> >>> you think?
> >> That works for me as it should. My context: 2008.01.28, pdftex 1.40.5
> >> What are your versions?
> >
> > I'm using the context package in debian sid:
> > * context: 2008.01.02
> > * pdftex: 1.40.3
> >
> > But I also tried with ConTeXt live, and the result is the same... Notice
> that
> > the line after the first formula should NOT be indented. How is it with
> your
> > installation?
>
> Ah, misunderstood. You want
>
>    \setupformulae[indentnext=auto]

Thank you, Taco! And may I ask the difference with the 'yes' option? Is it
documented somewhere? I'm having a real hard time understanding all the
mechanisms of indenting in ConTeXt...

>
> Best wishes,
> Taco
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
>


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[Taco Hoekwater]

morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
>> Ah, misunderstood. You want
>>
>>    \setupformulae[indentnext=auto]
> 
> Thank you, Taco! And may I ask the difference with the 'yes' option? Is it
> documented somewhere? I'm having a real hard time understanding all the
> mechanisms of indenting in ConTeXt...

The 'auto' indents the next paragraph, but only if it is a separate
paragraph (empty line or \par command following the \stop.. command)

Indenting is not much more complex than this: there is \indenting
with its (pretty long) list of arguments, and then there are the
indentnext=[yes|no|auto] option available after various block-creation
commands.

The indentnext key is relatively new, and is added for requests
similar to yours, but at a smaller scale. Some layouts ask for
indentation after itemizations but not after floats, sometimes there
is a need for 'auto' for formulae but often you really want 'no',
some styles indent after block quotations, others dont, etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[morgan.brassel]

Selon Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:

> morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> >> Ah, misunderstood. You want
> >>
> >>    \setupformulae[indentnext=auto]
> >
> > Thank you, Taco! And may I ask the difference with the 'yes' option? Is it
> > documented somewhere? I'm having a real hard time understanding all the
> > mechanisms of indenting in ConTeXt...
>
> The 'auto' indents the next paragraph, but only if it is a separate
> paragraph (empty line or \par command following the \stop.. command)

Thank you, that's precisely what I needed.

>
> Indenting is not much more complex than this: there is \indenting
> with its (pretty long) list of arguments, and then there are the
> indentnext=[yes|no|auto] option available after various block-creation
> commands.
>
> The indentnext key is relatively new, and is added for requests
> similar to yours, but at a smaller scale. Some layouts ask for
> indentation after itemizations but not after floats, sometimes there
> is a need for 'auto' for formulae but often you really want 'no',
> some styles indent after block quotations, others dont, etc. etc.

Ok, it's clearer to me now. Then I've got one last question on the subject: I
didn't manage to have paragraph indented inside an 'enumeration' block, is there
an option to do that? Thank you for your patience!

I still think that it would be great to have one option to indent absolutely all
paragraphs...

Best regards,
Morgan


>
> Best wishes,
> Taco
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
>


___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[Taco Hoekwater]

morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> 
> Ok, it's clearer to me now. Then I've got one last question on the subject: I
> didn't manage to have paragraph indented inside an 'enumeration' block, is there
> an option to do that? Thank you for your patience!

It is indeed possible, but the how is not very intuitive:

   \startitemize[command=\indent] % or \setupitemize[each][command...]
   \item ....
   \stopitemize

the output looks dreadful to my eyes, and I really doubt this
will ever become more easily supported.

> I still think that it would be great to have one option to indent absolutely all
> paragraphs...

Is 'absolutely all' including the one above? What about float captions?
And multi-line entries in tables? Or table of contents items? Or synonym
entries? Footnotes?

Best wishes,
Taco

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[morgan.brassel]

Selon Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:

> morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> >
> > Ok, it's clearer to me now. Then I've got one last question on the subject:
> I
> > didn't manage to have paragraph indented inside an 'enumeration' block, is
> there
> > an option to do that? Thank you for your patience!
>
> It is indeed possible, but the how is not very intuitive:
>
>    \startitemize[command=\indent] % or \setupitemize[each][command...]
>    \item ....
>    \stopitemize
>
> the output looks dreadful to my eyes, and I really doubt this
> will ever become more easily supported.

Sorry, I wasn't precise enough: I would like to indent paragraphs inside a block
created with \defineenumeration (like theorems...), not inside an itemize block.
The output in this latter case is indeed quite awful.

>
> > I still think that it would be great to have one option to indent
> absolutely all
> > paragraphs...
>
> Is 'absolutely all' including the one above? What about float captions?
> And multi-line entries in tables? Or table of contents items? Or synonym
> entries? Footnotes?

By 'absolutely all', I mean just like when you use \setlength{\parindent}{1em}
in LaTeX (plus eventually the indentfirst package for indenting after heads).
Every paragraph (preceded by an empty line or \par) in the "text flow" will get
indented, independently of:
* what is above (formula, float, etc)
* what environment it belongs to (quote, theorem, abstract, etc.), as long as
this environment doesn't need alignment (like itemize, tabular, etc.)

Of course, "particular" objects like captions, tables, footnotes, won't be
concerned by indenting.

I hope my explanations were clear enough... If needed, I can write a small LaTeX
example and send it to the list.

Best regards,
Morgan
___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[Taco Hoekwater]

morgan.brassel@free.fr wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I wasn't precise enough: I would like to indent paragraphs inside a block
> created with \defineenumeration (like theorems...), not inside an itemize block.
> The output in this latter case is indeed quite awful.

\defineenumeration[theorem][indenting=always]

This is actually easier to find, because it actually is documented
in texshow:  http://texshow.contextgarden.net/

> Every paragraph (preceded by an empty line or \par) in the "text flow" will get
> indented, independently of:
> * what is above (formula, float, etc)
> * what environment it belongs to (quote, theorem, abstract, etc.), as long as
> this environment doesn't need alignment (like itemize, tabular, etc.)
> 
> Of course, "particular" objects like captions, tables, footnotes, won't be
> concerned by indenting.
> 
> I hope my explanations were clear enough... If needed, I can write a small LaTeX
> example and send it to the list.

The thing is that the formal specification is not clearly defined,
not even if you mention all cases. _You_ may not want indented
footnotes, but _I_ have typeset a book that did.

And consider this:

   Text text text text
   \startquotation
     Quoted text quoted text
   \stopquotation
   Text text text text

is the next "Text" indented, yes or no? Whether this is a 'display' or
a standalone paragraph is very much up to the document designer.

In english mathematical texts, Theorems and such are often seen as a
kind of run-in header, so that "Theorem 1.  Text text text" is not
indented, but that usually does not apply to "Proof.  Text text text"
and "Remark 1.  Text text text": those usually _are_ indented.

I am being hesitant about a 'global switch' because I fear that any
automated solution only takes care of one particular set of settings,
and so does will really help that much and will become a documentation
nightmare. Imagine:

    The command \indentallparagraphs will  make sure that every
    paragraph in the document will get indented, regardless of its
    surroundings, with the following exceptions:

    * the bodies of the predefined floating objects figures, tables,
      intermezzos, graphics.
    * the bodies of the predefined footnotes & endnotes, and floating
      marginals
    * the contents of float captions
    * the paragraph following a \stopformula, if that formula is
      not preceded by \placeformula, and there is not empty line
      inbetween.
    * any itemgroups, enumerations, descriptions, floats etc. that
      were not predefined in the context core.
    * ...

I hope you see the problem with that. Even a simple command like

    \setupindentnext[yes]

does not work out-of-the-box, because you actually wanted

   \setupformulae[indentnext=auto] % not yes


As I said before, it may be much easier to put all this in a module
(by you, or someone else, but I guess you now have the list of desired
commands pretty much at hand?). Then you can say

    \usemodule[indentall]

and the context core would not have to think about all these border
cases.


Best wishes,
Taco
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Indenting (again!): a real problem in indentnext=yes

[morgan.brassel]

Selon Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:

> \defineenumeration[theorem][indenting=always]
>
> This is actually easier to find, because it actually is documented
> in texshow:  http://texshow.contextgarden.net/

You're right. I found it there just after I sent the mail... Thank you, and
sorry I didn't look at it first.

> The thing is that the formal specification is not clearly defined,
> not even if you mention all cases. _You_ may not want indented
> footnotes, but _I_ have typeset a book that did.

It's not exactly about what _I_ want: my only wish was to recover the LaTeX
specification. And actually, I don't know if it is clearly defined or not. Maybe
I'm too used to LaTeX choices.

> And consider this:
>
>    Text text text text
>    \startquotation
>      Quoted text quoted text
>    \stopquotation
>    Text text text text
>
> is the next "Text" indented, yes or no? Whether this is a 'display' or
> a standalone paragraph is very much up to the document designer.

Without an empty line over it, it "should not" be indented. It's the rule in
LaTeX, and it seems quite natural (to me). If you want it indented, you have to
start a new paragraph, with an empty line or \par. All this because quotation
can be part of a paragraph. Formulae, itemize, can also be part of a paragraph,
that's why the rule should be the same for them.

Floats, footnotes, etc. "can't" be part of a paragraph, that's why the rule is
different for them.

> In english mathematical texts, Theorems and such are often seen as a
> kind of run-in header, so that "Theorem 1.  Text text text" is not
> indented, but that usually does not apply to "Proof.  Text text text"
> and "Remark 1.  Text text text": those usually _are_ indented.

For theorem like environments, I'd follow the choices of the AMS. The text
inside theorems should follow the same rule as the main text outside. The "head"
of theorems never get indented (by default).

> I am being hesitant about a 'global switch' because I fear that any
> automated solution only takes care of one particular set of settings,
> and so does will really help that much and will become a documentation
> nightmare. Imagine:
>
>     The command \indentallparagraphs will  make sure that every
>     paragraph in the document will get indented, regardless of its
>     surroundings, with the following exceptions:
>
>     * the bodies of the predefined floating objects figures, tables,
>       intermezzos, graphics.
>     * the bodies of the predefined footnotes & endnotes, and floating
>       marginals
>     * the contents of float captions
>     * the paragraph following a \stopformula, if that formula is
>       not preceded by \placeformula, and there is not empty line
>       inbetween.

\placeformula shouldn't modify anything there...

>     * any itemgroups, enumerations, descriptions, floats etc. that
>       were not predefined in the context core.
>     * ...
>
> I hope you see the problem with that. Even a simple command like
>
>     \setupindentnext[yes]
>
> does not work out-of-the-box, because you actually wanted
>
>    \setupformulae[indentnext=auto] % not yes

auto seems indeed to be the default in LaTeX.

>
>
> As I said before, it may be much easier to put all this in a module
> (by you, or someone else, but I guess you now have the list of desired
> commands pretty much at hand?). Then you can say
>
>     \usemodule[indentall]
>
> and the context core would not have to think about all these border
> cases.

I understand that it's delicate to modify the core for such questions. My point
is that I always found indenting "clear" or "coherent" in LaTeX: you want an
indented line, then leave an empty line before. In ConTeXt, I had to fight a bit
to recover this "simple" rule. But as I said, maybe I'm too used to LaTeX
choices...

As you suggest, I will put every command I used in a separate file, and try to
produce a module out of it. I'm not sure I have sufficient knowledge for this
yet, but I'll try.

Last of all, I want to thank you for all your answers, and apologize for my poor
english: I might seem a bit "rude", but this is clearly not my wish.

Best regards,
Morgan

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___________________________________________________________________________________