From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/41293 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Charles P. Schaum" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: InDesign/InCopy vs. TeX and friends Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 12:26:50 -0500 Message-ID: <1212254810.6158.61.camel@elbereth> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1212254917 27918 80.91.229.12 (31 May 2008 17:28:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:28:37 +0000 (UTC) To: ntg-context@ntg.nl Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sat May 31 19:29:17 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl ([131.211.172.88] helo=ronja.ntg.nl) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1K2UtJ-0007FF-4K for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sat, 31 May 2008 19:29:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D56D1FCEF; Sat, 31 May 2008 19:28:27 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 12396-01-32; Sat, 31 May 2008 19:27:45 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5E81FB98; Sat, 31 May 2008 19:27:45 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8208F1FB39 for ; Sat, 31 May 2008 19:27:44 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 14975-02-6 for ; Sat, 31 May 2008 19:27:08 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from smtp112.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com (smtp112.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.198.211]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C76C1FCDE for ; Sat, 31 May 2008 19:27:08 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: (qmail 20295 invoked from network); 31 May 2008 17:26:52 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (verbo.solo@sbcglobal.net@69.155.5.112 with plain) by smtp112.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 May 2008 17:26:51 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: iySanc8VM1lUMMQ4PHwCK83jlXmcEr5jG72hD2cP4zndEaM4rg.aoFSyWqtYmBJuRPvjYL0ADvGSEOtiEV5hKW8tyJWSLQ3J4WveiNkIQC4zxKMlEoD5yAoJE1NPL7NZIjQ- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.1.1 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:41293 Archived-At: I would say that TeX is a way in which a mathematician / theoretical computer scientist that is well-steeped in music, languages, art, literature, and other areas might approach the issue. InDesign is the way in which a large number in the design community might approach the issue. I use mainly InCopy because I'm an editor, but I work closely with the designers. Here's a few things I see that could stand some improvement: 1. What does it mean to have either an overfull hbox or vbox? You might think, duh! But overfull boxes and copyfitting issues are not sets of the same cardinality or topology in the problem domain. First of all, some do make a distinction between intraword and interword spacing, although this need not necessarily be made. It does become helpful, however, when setting Sperrdruck and noting the rules for commas, periods, etc. The soul package in LaTeX does well here, although if there were essentially two realms, intraword and interword, with different letterspacing controls for each, this could result in the following solution: If (overfull hbox) then Apply an algorithm taking into account aesthetic rules for adjusting intra- and interword spacing within tolerance n and produce a warning that says either: Spacing adjusted to fit copy in hbox on line nnnn or Copyfit warning for hbox in line nnnn Similarly, leading (interline spacing) ought to be considered, but horizontal spacing, especially when pagefitting copy to avoid widows and orphans, can be tied with interline spacing to get the desired result. Tweaking the font size is generally a poor solution. Boxes and glue is good if you are modeling classical typesetting. I believe that is what DEK was shooting for. In 1978, that made good sense because electronic means were not well-defined and were sometimes quite displeasing. For modern digital needs, boxes and glue may not be appropriate in every situation. InDesign and InCopy simply pop up a warning when you have copyfitting issues. Still, there must be a standard approach when a designer fixes such issues (apart from an editor doing some rewording) in order to give one's products a good look and feel. Even with InDesign, copyfitting issues are not a no-brainer. That's where generating a preview that would step through copyfitting issues and allow input for heuristics might be helpful. 2. The box or the text frame? Ever use LaTeX and BibTeX to do a bib and footnotes and all of a sudden your URLs go right off the line? How annoying is that? The text frame should have priority over the boxes in it and should trigger copyfitting rules to enforce that priority unless locally or globally suppressed. 3. Multi-author workflow InCopy works with InDesign to allow an editor to work with a "story" that may be in one text frame or spread over multiple frames. It allows check-out and check-in of a story and locks the story when checked out. Of course, this implies that the workflow happens off a central server. Nevertheless, this allows the document to be constructed in parallel with designers, substantial/copy editors, proofreaders, and so on working on different parts as needed. TeX may be batch-oriented, but it is also single-user oriented unless you have a master with lots of linked input. The problem is that InCopy and InDesign can show you your work in relation to the whole, giving a better idea of what you need to do to fit your work in harmony with the others. TeX cannot do that. 4. TeX is still better at some things. Kinda like GraphViz, TeX has its area where it just shines. Those schemata that I was doing are a major pain to do in something else. TeX's ability to intermix math mode and regular mode is probably unique. I would bet that one could do things like sentence diagrams and grammar theory much more easily in TeX than elsewhere. 5. Toward Generalization, but Keep the Good Stuff It would be neat to sit down with experienced designers or professors of design and see where DEK's solutions and those built on them work well for today's expectations and where they do not. Curiously, if you look at Wikipedia on page design, typography, and other design-related issues and TeX does not really show up in the external links. My design books are almost twenty years old. They are: Collier and Cotton. Basic Desktop Design and Layout Murphy and Rowe. How to Design Trade Marks and Logos Devall. Desktop Publishing Styleguide White. Graphic Design for the Electronic Age Craig. Designing with Type, 3rd ed. Still, one can see even there certain relationships of parts to whole that, in the main, ConTeXt has done better than any other TeX variant to address. I find the \setuplayout and related general layout, makeup, sectioning, and other features to be substantially superior to LaTeX, where the publishers do the styles and the scientists write the content, or plain, where you have to do everything (not always bad, but Herculean for a large project). Charles ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________