Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Hans Hagen wrote:
>At 12:48 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>>I want to set up a font (like Minion, or in this case Hoefler Text) for
>>use in the following way:
>>
>>For all tables    monospaced figures (osf or lining)
>>For all headings and page numbers   proportional lining
>>text  osf
>>footnote markers  superiors
>
>no big deal once i understand what osf oand/or lining is -)

Lining=capital figures, OSF=old-style figures

>>SO my basic question is: how do I do this?  I have tried to set up a
>>"SerifFootnote" fontsynonym (which is to access a specially-encoded
>>"footnote" font), but no matter how I try to access it, I get an
>>"unknown variant" error.
>
>can you make a minimal sample document

This is the latest example that doesn't work (though I tried many 
variations that I don't remember):

First, added following to font map file:

\definefontsynonym [SerifFootnote][ehtr18f][encoding=T1,handling=pure]

The preamble code:

\setupbodyfont[HoeflerText,serif]
\setupfootnotes[style={\switchtobodyfont[SerifFootnote]}]
\starttext
Test.\footnote{A footnote.}
\stoptext

So what piece of the puzzle am I missing?

Bruce

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Jens-Uwe Morawski]

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
"Bruce D'Arcus" <darcusb@muohio.edu> wrote:

> First, added following to font map file:

 map file? Do you really mean the pdftex or dvips map file?

> \definefontsynonym [SerifFootnote][ehtr18f][encoding=T1,handling=pure]

T1 it is called in LaTeX. In ConTeXt it is ec (encoding=ec)

> \setupbodyfont[HoeflerText,serif]

How is HoeflerText defined?

Send a listing of the T1 font file names, their characteristics
(regular,bold,italic,slanted,...,osf,SmallCaps,...) and where
(bodyfont,footnotes,captions) they should be used.
Then we can discuss the set-up.

Jens

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Hans Hagen wrote:

>At 11:50 AM 8/14/2002 -0400, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>
>>Can I please get an answer to this?  I'm happy if someone can tell me
>>how to get the footnote font working, after which I'm pretty sure I can
>>figure out the rest.  I know I'm doing something wrong with defining
>>the font, but just don't understand what...
>
>can you be a bit more specific? for instance there is no t1 vector in 
>context (ec, texnansi, ..)

According to Jens-Uwe, T1 in LaTeX is ec in ConTeXt.  I assume ConTeXt 
defaults to ec, so that's why my having T1 works also?

My issue is basically how do I set up these new fonts (the Footnote and 
MonoSpacedLining, for example) so ConTeXt understands the synonyms when 
I use them in a command?

>also, if you prepare a minimal set of files to test .... (so that i 
don't 
>have to rekey) ...

Sure, but am not sure what kind of sample would be relevant (since you 
don't have the font files themselves).  In the first note in the 
thread, I gave the setupfootnotedefinition command I used.  Is that 
what you mean?Just let me know and I'll send it!

>setting up the footnotes is no problem (bodyfont key)

Right. My problem is I get an "unknown variant" when I do so, but don't 
understand why...

Also, is there a font command that would only apply a font to the body 
text itself (and footnote and caption text), and not to things like 
headings?

Bruce

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Can I please get an answer to this?  I'm happy if someone can tell me 
how to get the footnote font working, after which I'm pretty sure I can 
figure out the rest.  I know I'm doing something wrong with defining 
the font, but just don't understand what...

Thanks!
Bruce

Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

>Jens-Uwe Morawski wrote:
>>Send a listing of the T1 font file names, their characteristics
>>(regular,bold,italic,slanted,...,osf,SmallCaps,...) and where
>>(bodyfont,footnotes,captions) they should be used.
>>Then we can discuss the set-up.
>
>Below is the complete contents of the type-HoeflerText file (or was it 
>font-HoeflerText? My email access is via internet cafe right now so I 
>don't have the actual file with me!). Actually, the default of HT has 
>old-style figures, so the ehtr8t font has those.  As I said, all of 
>this works correctly in LaTeX (using the eht.map with pdftex).  I 
>changed the encoding to T1 because the ligatures and the margin kerning 
>weren't working right with whatever I was using before.  Now they work, 
>so I assume there's no problem there.
>
>\definefontsynonym [Serif][ehtr8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SerifBold][ehtc8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SerifItalic][ehtri8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SerifSlanted][ehtri8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SerifBoldItalic][ehtci8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym 
>[SerifBoldSlanted][ehtci8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SerifCaps][ehtrc8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SerifBoldCaps][ehtcc8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SerifFootnote][ehtr18f][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym 
>[SerifMonoLiningFigures][ehtr18l][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
>
>\definefontsynonym [Sans][5sxr8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SansBold][5sxb8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SansBlack][5sxc8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SansItalic][5sxri8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
>\definefontsynonym [SansSlanted][5sxri8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
>
>\definefontsynonym [Mono][pcrr8t][encoding=ec]
>\definefontsynonym [MonoBold][pcrb8t][encoding=ec]
>\definefontsynonym [MonoItalic][pcrro8t][encoding=ec]
>\definefontsynonym [MonoSlanted][pcrro8t][encoding=ec]
>\definefontsynonym [MonoBoldItalic][pcrbo8t][encoding=ec]
>\definefontsynonym [MonoBoldSlanted][pcrbo8t][encoding=ec]
>
>\definebodyfont[14.4pt,12pt,11pt,10pt,9pt,8pt,7pt,6pt,5pt][rm][default]
>
>
>
>

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Hans Hagen]

At 11:50 AM 8/14/2002 -0400, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

>Can I please get an answer to this?  I'm happy if someone can tell me
>how to get the footnote font working, after which I'm pretty sure I can
>figure out the rest.  I know I'm doing something wrong with defining
>the font, but just don't understand what...

can you be a bit more specific? for instance there is no t1 vector in 
context (ec, texnansi, ..)

also, if you prepare a minimal set of files to test .... (so that i don't 
have to rekey) ...

setting up the footnotes is no problem (bodyfont key)

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Jens-Uwe Morawski wrote:
>Send a listing of the T1 font file names, their characteristics
>(regular,bold,italic,slanted,...,osf,SmallCaps,...) and where
>(bodyfont,footnotes,captions) they should be used.
>Then we can discuss the set-up.

Below is the complete contents of the type-HoeflerText file (or was it 
font-HoeflerText? My email access is via internet cafe right now so I 
don't have the actual file with me!). Actually, the default of HT has 
old-style figures, so the ehtr8t font has those.  As I said, all of 
this works correctly in LaTeX (using the eht.map with pdftex).  I 
changed the encoding to T1 because the ligatures and the margin kerning 
weren't working right with whatever I was using before.  Now they work, 
so I assume there's no problem there.

\definefontsynonym [Serif][ehtr8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SerifBold][ehtc8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SerifItalic][ehtri8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SerifSlanted][ehtri8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SerifBoldItalic][ehtci8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym 
[SerifBoldSlanted][ehtci8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SerifCaps][ehtrc8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SerifBoldCaps][ehtcc8t][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SerifFootnote][ehtr18f][encoding=T1,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym 
[SerifMonoLiningFigures][ehtr18l][encoding=T1,handling=pure]

\definefontsynonym [Sans][5sxr8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SansBold][5sxb8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SansBlack][5sxc8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SansItalic][5sxri8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]
\definefontsynonym [SansSlanted][5sxri8t][encoding=8r,handling=pure]

\definefontsynonym [Mono][pcrr8t][encoding=ec]
\definefontsynonym [MonoBold][pcrb8t][encoding=ec]
\definefontsynonym [MonoItalic][pcrro8t][encoding=ec]
\definefontsynonym [MonoSlanted][pcrro8t][encoding=ec]
\definefontsynonym [MonoBoldItalic][pcrbo8t][encoding=ec]
\definefontsynonym [MonoBoldSlanted][pcrbo8t][encoding=ec]

\definebodyfont[14.4pt,12pt,11pt,10pt,9pt,8pt,7pt,6pt,5pt][rm][default]

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Jens-Uwe Morawski wrote:

>IMO, the main problem is that there is no standard encoding
>for those glyphs. The most common font encodings texnansi and
>ec do not include oldstyle figures and other interesting expert
>glyphs.

What I did to get it working with LaTeX was to modify the encoding 
files I used to create the tfm and vf files to map what I need 
(smallcaps, superiors, monospaced figures, etc.) into the standard T1 
encoding.  The issue isn't the fonts (since I have them working in 
LaTeX); it's how to tell ConTeXt how to use them.  What I want, in 
essence, is to define things like SerifFootnote (serif, because it 
shouldn't be specific to Hoefler Text), SerifMonoLining, SerifMonoOSF, 
etc., and then to tell ConTeXt: "use the footnote font for footnotes, 
the monoOSF fonts for tables, etc."

I'll send a simple sample file later, per Hans' suggestion...

Bruce

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:48 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>OK, I've gone through all the manuals, and tried hard to figure this
>out, but obviously don't quite get the details of the font system in
>ConTeXt.
>
>I want to set up a font (like Minion, or in this case Hoefler Text) for
>use in the following way:
>
>For all tables    monospaced figures (osf or lining)
>For all headings and page numbers   proportional lining
>text  osf
>footnote markers  superiors

no big deal once i understand what osf oand/or lining is -)

>SO my basic question is: how do I do this?  I have tried to set up a
>"SerifFootnote" fontsynonym (which is to access a specially-encoded
>"footnote" font), but no matter how I try to access it, I get an
>"unknown variant" error.

can you make a minimal sample document

>More generally, there's an interesting article on using so-called "rich
>font" (like Hoefler Text, but in the future, OpenType) with TeX, in
>which the author argues that TeX macros need to take the more complex
>capabilities of these fonts into account.  A relevant excerpt
>(http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~stoledo/Pubs/richfonts.ps):

hm, tugboat article, somehow missed it; quite some ugly bitmaps in there, 
and since it fails to print i ran it through distiller; interestingly 
distiller also downsamples bitmap fonts (in some modes), which is weird. 
Anyway, i'll have a look at it.

>Why not in ConTeXt then?  If one has a complete expert set of a font
>like Minion, shouldn't what I outlined above be the default behavior of
>a TeX macro system?  Once TeX supports OpenType this will become all
>the more relevant...

you can set up a lot, like fonts and conversions of numbers so it's possible,

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Bruce D'Arcus]

OK, I've gone through all the manuals, and tried hard to figure this 
out, but obviously don't quite get the details of the font system in 
ConTeXt.

I want to set up a font (like Minion, or in this case Hoefler Text) for 
use in the following way:

For all tables    monospaced figures (osf or lining)
For all headings and page numbers   proportional lining
text  osf
footnote markers  superiors

SO my basic question is: how do I do this?  I have tried to set up a 
"SerifFootnote" fontsynonym (which is to access a specially-encoded 
"footnote" font), but no matter how I try to access it, I get an 
"unknown variant" error.

More generally, there's an interesting article on using so-called "rich 
font" (like Hoefler Text, but in the future, OpenType) with TeX, in 
which the author argues that TeX macros need to take the more complex 
capabilities of these fonts into account.  A relevant excerpt 
(http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~stoledo/Pubs/richfonts.ps):

"Macro packages, especially LATEX, should support
the features of rich fonts. In particular, I believe
that macro packages should automatically select
the correct numerals for most situations. The enhancement 
to LATEX that I envision would automatically
select fixed-width numerals in tables, and
would automatically select lining numerals when there
numerals are isolated (as in page numbers and the
table of contents) or when the numeral is likely to
be followed by a capital (as in section numbers).
There are also cases where the LATEX style can also
automatically select the best punctuation, especially
parentheses, brackets, and braces. Essentially, when
lining figures are enclosed alone in parentheses, the
parentheses should also be lining, as in reference
number in many bibTEX styles and in equation numbers."

Why not in ConTeXt then?  If one has a complete expert set of a font 
like Minion, shouldn't what I outlined above be the default behavior of 
a TeX macro system?  Once TeX supports OpenType this will become all 
the more relevant...

Bruce

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Frans Goddijn]

Hi Bruce,

> OK, I've gone through all the manuals, and
> tried hard to figure this out, but obviously
> don't quite get the details of the font system
> in ConTeXt.

There are two relatively simple ways to install a font under ConTeXt. Which
of the two applies to depends.

1) If you're really very smart, like a couple of guys I know who only have
to look at certain things, and play with them a few minutes before they
start understanding how it all works and at the same time they discover even
more options... then you can find the examples on the list archives
http://ml-archives.mini.pw.edu.pl/ntg-context.html and from those you can
easily create your own setup. There's even s perl script to do lots of stuff
for you. Also, at
http://home.salamander.com/~wmcclain/context-help.html
there's much to be learned from.

2) If you're like me, you just need to find someone who knows how it works,
and work out some arrangement so you can send him your font files and
receive back the necessary files and their location specifics plus a short
message telling you which files to put where and what mappings to add to
certain existing font config files.

I've tried to promote myself to the 1st category a few times but until I get
smarter or the system gets even simpler than it already is, I remain in the
second category...

Groet!

Frans
www.goddijn.com

Re: ConTeXt and expert fonts

[Jens-Uwe Morawski]

On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:48:12 -0400 (EDT)
"Bruce D'Arcus" <darcusb@muohio.edu> wrote:

> OK, I've gone through all the manuals, and tried hard to figure this 
> out, but obviously don't quite get the details of the font system in 
> ConTeXt.
> 
> I want to set up a font (like Minion, or in this case Hoefler Text) for 
> use in the following way:
> 
> For all tables    monospaced figures (osf or lining)
> For all headings and page numbers   proportional lining
> text  osf
> footnote markers  superiors

IMO, the main problem is that there is no standard encoding
for those glyphs. The most common font encodings texnansi and
ec do not include oldstyle figures and other interesting expert
glyphs.

Another problem is that some fonts are available as expert fonts
(Adobe Garamond) others are a package of normal fonts with a special
small caps and osf font (Adobe Palatino). But these are not in expert
encoding. This makes it difficult to set up these fonts for TeX.

The only way i know is to use fontinst. Then you can, for example,
build an normal font (HoeflerTextNormal) and a variant that
replaces the normal numbers with osf numbers (HoeflerTextOSF).

Look at http://home.vr-web.de/was/fonts.html, there Walter Schmidt
has set up many commercial fonts for LaTeX using fontinst.

fontinst has direct suport for real expert fonts, look in the
fontinst manual, there you can find an example how to install
Adobe Garamond expert fonts. But since the result will be
ec-encoded fonts some glyph are still missing.

This problem can only be solved with an new TeX-font-encoding.
Okay, one can of course develop a module that gives access to
those glyphs, but then each application has to develop this
support from scratch. That is IMO a bad solution.

> Why not in ConTeXt then?  If one has a complete expert set of a font 
> like Minion, shouldn't what I outlined above be the default behavior of 
> a TeX macro system?  Once TeX supports OpenType this will become all 
> the more relevant...

Currently TeX doesn't support OT since it has no 16Bit font encoding.
Okay, i know, Omega has, but this is not the common way.
I think we, the users , should first encourage the developers to
merge all the different TeX-developments (e-TeX,pdftex,NTS,Omega) and
establish this way a new standard for TeX, esp a new standard font encoding.

I hope Hans can say more, since he is involved in some of these projects.

Best,
  Jens