* Itemize without page break @ 2012-03-17 1:47 Kip Warner 2012-03-17 9:21 ` luigi scarso 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-17 1:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 253 bytes --] Hey list, Is there any way to hint to ConTeXt that the contents of a \startitemize \stopitemize pair should try to be all on the same page? -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-17 1:47 Itemize without page break Kip Warner @ 2012-03-17 9:21 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-17 10:21 ` Wolfgang Schuster 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2012-03-17 9:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: > Hey list, > > Is there any way to hint to ConTeXt that the contents of a \startitemize > \stopitemize pair should try to be all on the same page? plain old tex \vbox{% \startitemize \stopitemize% } ? -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-17 9:21 ` luigi scarso @ 2012-03-17 10:21 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-18 23:25 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-17 10:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 17.03.2012 um 10:21 schrieb luigi scarso: > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: >> Hey list, >> >> Is there any way to hint to ConTeXt that the contents of a \startitemize >> \stopitemize pair should try to be all on the same page? > plain old tex > \vbox{% > \startitemize > \stopitemize% > } Better: \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection] … \stopitemize You can control the space before/after the linecorrection environment with the optional argument which accepts all values for \blank, e.g. \startlinecorrection[2*line]. Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-17 10:21 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-18 23:25 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-18 23:29 ` Kip Warner ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-18 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1389 bytes --] On Sat, 2012-03-17 at 11:21 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > Am 17.03.2012 um 10:21 schrieb luigi scarso: > > > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: > >> Hey list, > >> > >> Is there any way to hint to ConTeXt that the contents of a \startitemize > >> \stopitemize pair should try to be all on the same page? > > plain old tex > > \vbox{% > > \startitemize > > \stopitemize% > > } > > Better: > > \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection] > > \stopitemize > > You can control the space before/after the linecorrection environment with the optional > argument which accepts all values for \blank, e.g. \startlinecorrection[2*line]. > > Wolfgang Hey Wolfgang, The good news is that this is probably what I need. The bad news is luatex completely blows itself to pieces, allocating memory until the system crashes. After much grinding of the machine, I managed to finally SIGSTOP and attach gdb to the naughty process. I've cc'd the luatex user mailing list since this is probably, I suppose, a luatex issue more than a ConTeXt one. I am using luatex beta-0.71.0-2012030522 (rev 4364) through context version 2012.03.13 21:26 on amd64 hardware running Ubuntu Maverick. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.1.2: gdb.log --] [-- Type: text/x-log, Size: 7005 bytes --] $ gdb luatex 8477 GNU gdb (GDB) 7.2-ubuntu Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Type "show copying" and "show warranty" for details. This GDB was configured as "x86_64-linux-gnu". For bug reporting instructions, please see: <http://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/bugs/>... Reading symbols from /usr/bin/luatex...Reading symbols from /usr/lib/debug/usr/bin/luatex...done. done. Attaching to program: /usr/bin/luatex, process 8477 Reading symbols from /lib/libpng12.so.0...(no debugging symbols found)...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libpng12.so.0 Reading symbols from /lib/libz.so.1...(no debugging symbols found)...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libz.so.1 Reading symbols from /lib/libdl.so.2...Reading symbols from /usr/lib/debug/lib/libdl-2.12.1.so...done. done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libdl.so.2 Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6...(no debugging symbols found)...done. Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 Reading symbols from /lib/libm.so.6...Reading symbols from /usr/lib/debug/lib/libm-2.12.1.so...done. done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libm.so.6 Reading symbols from /lib/libgcc_s.so.1...(no debugging symbols found)...done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 Reading symbols from /lib/libc.so.6...Reading symbols from /usr/lib/debug/lib/libc-2.12.1.so...done. done. Loaded symbols for /lib/libc.so.6 Reading symbols from /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2...Reading symbols from /usr/lib/debug/lib/ld-2.12.1.so...done. done. Loaded symbols for /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 0x00000000004a24d1 in get_avail () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/textoken.w:154 154 ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/textoken.w: No such file or directory. in ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/textoken.w (gdb) bt full #0 0x00000000004a24d1 in get_avail () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/textoken.w:154 p = 273242622 t = 273242621 #1 0x0000000000471ded in macro_call () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:658 r = 273242622 p = 273242621 q = 273242622 s = -2109026328 t = <value optimised out> u = 1572864 v = <value optimised out> rbrace_ptr = <value optimised out> n = <value optimised out> unbalance = 9 m = 257 ref_count = 163662 save_scanner_status = 0 save_warning_index = 3331 match_chr = 35 #2 0x0000000000472a45 in get_x_token () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:384 No locals. #3 0x0000000000511819 in test_for_cs () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/conditional.w:176 m = <value optimised out> s = <value optimised out> p = 526371 #4 conditional () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/conditional.w:483 b = <value optimised out> r = <value optimised out> m = <value optimised out> n = <value optimised out> p = <value optimised out> ---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit--- q = <value optimised out> save_scanner_status = <value optimised out> save_cond_ptr = 74229 this_if = <value optimised out> #5 0x0000000000472695 in expand () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:236 t = <value optimised out> p = <value optimised out> cur_ptr = <value optimised out> cv_backup = 1 cvl_backup = 0 radix_backup = 0 co_backup = 0 backup_backup = 0 save_scanner_status = 0 #6 0x0000000000472a7d in get_x_token () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:391 No locals. #7 0x000000000048022d in main_control () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/maincontrol.w:892 No locals. #8 0x0000000000477fa7 in main_body () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/mainbody.w:469 pdftex_map = "pdftex.map" #9 0x000000000045818e in main (ac=<value optimised out>, av=<value optimised out>) at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/luatex.c:460 No locals. (gdb) info registers rax 0x104959fe 273242622 rbx 0x104959fd 273242621 rcx 0x104959fe 273242622 rdx 0x2b80e8bbc010 47832660426768 rsi 0x136f35e2 326055394 rdi 0x2b8184356f28 47835268869928 rbp 0x9 0x9 rsp 0x7fff97386740 0x7fff97386740 r8 0x28 40 r9 0x180000 1572864 r10 0x0 0 r11 0x2b80e6dff0b1 47832629244081 r12 0x13fa88 1309320 r13 0x101 257 r14 0x27f4e 163662 r15 0x824acfe8 2185940968 rip 0x4a24d1 0x4a24d1 <get_avail+49> eflags 0x10202 [ IF RF ] cs 0x33 51 ss 0x2b 43 ds 0x0 0 es 0x0 0 fs 0x0 0 gs 0x0 0 (gdb) x/16i $pc => 0x4a24d1 <get_avail+49>: movl $0x0,0x4(%rdx,%rcx,8) 0x4a24d9 <get_avail+57>: addl $0x1,0x963a88(%rip) # 0xe05f68 <dyn_used> 0x4a24e0 <get_avail+64>: pop %rbx 0x4a24e1 <get_avail+65>: retq 0x4a24e2 <get_avail+66>: jmp 0x4a24e8 <get_avail+72> 0x4a24e4 <get_avail+68>: nop 0x4a24e5 <get_avail+69>: nop 0x4a24e6 <get_avail+70>: nop 0x4a24e7 <get_avail+71>: nop 0x4a24e8 <get_avail+72>: mov %esi,%eax 0x4a24ea <get_avail+74>: mov $0xcccccccd,%ebx 0x4a24ef <get_avail+79>: mov 0x963a6a(%rip),%rdi # 0xe05f60 <fixmem> 0x4a24f6 <get_avail+86>: mul %ebx 0x4a24f8 <get_avail+88>: mov %edx,%ebx 0x4a24fa <get_avail+90>: shr $0x2,%ebx 0x4a24fd <get_avail+93>: lea 0x1(%rbx,%rsi,1),%esi (gdb) thread apply all backtrace Thread 1 (process 8477): #0 0x00000000004a24d1 in get_avail () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/textoken.w:154 #1 0x0000000000471ded in macro_call () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:658 #2 0x0000000000472a45 in get_x_token () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:384 #3 0x0000000000511819 in test_for_cs () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/conditional.w:176 #4 conditional () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/conditional.w:483 #5 0x0000000000472695 in expand () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:236 #6 0x0000000000472a7d in get_x_token () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/expand.w:391 #7 0x000000000048022d in main_control () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/maincontrol.w:892 #8 0x0000000000477fa7 in main_body () at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex/mainbody.w:469 #9 0x000000000045818e in main (ac=<value optimised out>, av=<value optimised out>) at ../../../source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/luatex.c:460 (gdb) [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-18 23:25 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-18 23:29 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-19 8:17 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-19 21:49 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-18 23:33 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-19 21:50 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-18 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1654 bytes --] On Sun, 2012-03-18 at 16:25 -0700, Kip Warner wrote: > On Sat, 2012-03-17 at 11:21 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > > Am 17.03.2012 um 10:21 schrieb luigi scarso: > > > > > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: > > >> Hey list, > > >> > > >> Is there any way to hint to ConTeXt that the contents of a \startitemize > > >> \stopitemize pair should try to be all on the same page? > > > plain old tex > > > \vbox{% > > > \startitemize > > > \stopitemize% > > > } > > > > Better: > > > > \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection] > > > > \stopitemize > > > > You can control the space before/after the linecorrection environment with the optional > > argument which accepts all values for \blank, e.g. \startlinecorrection[2*line]. > > > > Wolfgang > > Hey Wolfgang, > > The good news is that this is probably what I need. The bad news is > luatex completely blows itself to pieces, allocating memory until the > system crashes. > > After much grinding of the machine, I managed to finally SIGSTOP and > attach gdb to the naughty process. > > I've cc'd the luatex user mailing list since this is probably, I > suppose, a luatex issue more than a ConTeXt one. > > I am using luatex beta-0.71.0-2012030522 (rev 4364) through context > version 2012.03.13 21:26 on amd64 hardware running Ubuntu Maverick. One other thing that I should have made more clear, this only happens when I insert the aforementioned line correction commands. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-18 23:29 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-19 8:17 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-20 1:04 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-19 21:49 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-19 8:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kip Warner; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. Am 19.03.2012 um 00:29 schrieb Kip Warner: > On Sun, 2012-03-18 at 16:25 -0700, Kip Warner wrote: >> On Sat, 2012-03-17 at 11:21 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >>> Am 17.03.2012 um 10:21 schrieb luigi scarso: >>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: >>>>> Hey list, >>>>> >>>>> Is there any way to hint to ConTeXt that the contents of a \startitemize >>>>> \stopitemize pair should try to be all on the same page? >>>> plain old tex >>>> \vbox{% >>>> \startitemize >>>> \stopitemize% >>>> } >>> >>> Better: >>> >>> \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection] >>> >>> \stopitemize >>> >>> You can control the space before/after the linecorrection environment with the optional >>> argument which accepts all values for \blank, e.g. \startlinecorrection[2*line]. >>> >>> Wolfgang >> >> Hey Wolfgang, >> >> The good news is that this is probably what I need. The bad news is >> luatex completely blows itself to pieces, allocating memory until the >> system crashes. >> >> After much grinding of the machine, I managed to finally SIGSTOP and >> attach gdb to the naughty process. >> >> I've cc'd the luatex user mailing list since this is probably, I >> suppose, a luatex issue more than a ConTeXt one. >> >> I am using luatex beta-0.71.0-2012030522 (rev 4364) through context >> version 2012.03.13 21:26 on amd64 hardware running Ubuntu Maverick. > > One other thing that I should have made more clear, this only happens > when I insert the aforementioned line correction commands. Make a example because this works: \starttext %\dorecurse{2}{\input tufte\par} \dorecurse{3}{\input tufte\par} \startitemize[before={\startlinecorrection[blank]},after=\stoplinecorrection] \dorecurse{4}{\startitem \input ward \stopitem} \stopitemize \dorecurse{3}{\input tufte\par} \stoptext Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-19 8:17 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-20 1:04 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 5:22 ` Wolfgang Schuster 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 1:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Wolfgang Schuster Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3341 bytes --] On Mon, 2012-03-19 at 09:17 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > Make a example because this works: > > \starttext > > %\dorecurse{2}{\input tufte\par} > \dorecurse{3}{\input tufte\par} > > \startitemize[before={\startlinecorrection[blank]},after= > \stoplinecorrection] > \dorecurse{4}{\startitem \input ward \stopitem} > \stopitemize > > \dorecurse{3}{\input tufte\par} > > \stoptext I concur that your example works. Attached is an example of a minimal that does not for me. ConTeXt does its thing, invoking luatex which quickly gets nasty and starts spinning the clock - endlessly allocating memory until a 4GB system is run into the ground. This is what I see: $ context minimal.tex resolvers | resolving | loading configuration file 'selfautodir:/share/texmf/web2c/contextcnf.lua' resolvers | resolving | loading configuration file '/usr/share/texmf/web2c/contextcnf.lua' mtx-context | run 1: luatex --fmt="/home/kip/.texmf-var/luatex-cache/context/e570cb3e0e3ab0118ca08dd148bbec7d/formats/cont-en" --lua="/home/kip/.texmf-var/luatex-cache/context/e570cb3e0e3ab0118ca08dd148bbec7d/formats/cont-en.lui" --backend="pdf" "./minimal.tex" \stoptext This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.71.0-2012030522 (rev 4364) \write18 enabled. resolvers > resolving > loading configuration file '/usr/share/texmf/web2c/contextcnf.lua' (minimal.tex ConTeXt ver: 2012.03.13 21:26 MKIV fmt: 2012.3.14 int: english/english system > cont-new.mkiv loaded (/usr/share/texmf/tex/context/base/cont-new.mkiv system > beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.mkiv ) system > minimal.top loaded (minimal.top) fonts > latin modern fonts are not preloaded languages > language en is active {/usr/share/texmf/fonts/map/pdftex/context/mkiv-base.map} fonts > preloading latin modern fonts (second stage) fonts > typescripts > unknown: library 'loc' {/usr/share/texmf/fonts/map/dvips/lm/lm-math.map}{/usr/share/texmf/fonts/map/dvips/lm/lm-rm.map} fonts > defining > forced type afm of stmary10 not found fonts > defining > font with asked name 'stmary10' is not found using lookup 'file' fonts > virtual math > loading font LMMath7-Regular subfont 9 with name stmary10.afm at 458752 is skipped, not found fonts > defining > forced type afm of stmary10 not found fonts > defining > font with asked name 'stmary10' is not found using lookup 'file' fonts > virtual math > loading font LMMath9-Regular subfont 9 with name stmary10.afm at 589824 is skipped, not found fonts > defining > forced type afm of stmary10 not found fonts > defining > font with asked name 'stmary10' is not found using lookup 'file' fonts > virtual math > loading font LMMath12-Regular subfont 9 with name stmary10.afm at 786432 is skipped, not found fonts > fallback modern rm 12pt is loaded [***hangs at this point***] I am using ConTeXt and LuaTeX packages off of Adam's PPA. These are luatex version beta-0.71.0-2012030522 (rev 4364) under context version 2012.03.13 21:26 on amd64 hardware using Ubuntu Maverick. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.1.2: minimal.tex --] [-- Type: text/x-tex, Size: 138 bytes --] \starttext \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection][] \item foo \stopitemize \stoptext [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 1:04 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 5:22 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-20 5:31 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-20 5:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kip Warner; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. Am 20.03.2012 um 02:04 schrieb Kip Warner: > On Mon, 2012-03-19 at 09:17 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >> Make a example because this works: >> >> \starttext >> >> %\dorecurse{2}{\input tufte\par} >> \dorecurse{3}{\input tufte\par} >> >> \startitemize[before={\startlinecorrection[blank]},after= >> \stoplinecorrection] >> \dorecurse{4}{\startitem \input ward \stopitem} >> \stopitemize >> >> \dorecurse{3}{\input tufte\par} >> >> \stoptext > > I concur that your example works. Attached is an example of a minimal > that does not for me. ConTeXt does its thing, invoking luatex which > quickly gets nasty and starts spinning the clock - endlessly allocating > memory until a 4GB system is run into the ground. The problem is the empty second argument. \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection][] When you pass two arguments with \startitemize the first argument os for keywords (e.g. packed or fit) and second argument is for assignments (e.g. width=3cm) in your case context is looking for the keywords “before=\startlinecorrection” and “after=\stoplinecorrection” which results in a loop. Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 5:22 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-20 5:31 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 5:46 ` Wolfgang Schuster 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 5:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Wolfgang Schuster Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1154 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:22 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > The problem is the empty second argument. > > \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection][] > > When you pass two arguments with \startitemize the first argument os for keywords (e.g. packed or fit) > and second argument is for assignments (e.g. width=3cm) in your case context is looking for the keywords > “before=\startlinecorrection” and “after=\stoplinecorrection” which results in a loop. Even if that were the case, that's a fragility that no program should its users endure. It should probably have bailed with an error message after seeing that the second argument was empty rather than taking down the entire operating system with it. But regardless, this does not seem to be the case. The following minimal still blows up, even with an assignment in the second parameter. \starttext \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after= \stoplinecorrection][start=11] \item foo \stopitemize \stoptext -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 5:31 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 5:46 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-20 5:49 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 22:18 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-20 5:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kip Warner; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. Am 20.03.2012 um 06:31 schrieb Kip Warner: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:22 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >> The problem is the empty second argument. >> >> \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection][] >> >> When you pass two arguments with \startitemize the first argument os for keywords (e.g. packed or fit) >> and second argument is for assignments (e.g. width=3cm) in your case context is looking for the keywords >> “before=\startlinecorrection” and “after=\stoplinecorrection” which results in a loop. > > Even if that were the case, that's a fragility that no program should > its users endure. It should probably have bailed with an error message > after seeing that the second argument was empty rather than taking down > the entire operating system with it. TeX has it’s problem with certain errors, accept it. > But regardless, this does not seem to be the case. The following minimal > still blows up, even with an assignment in the second parameter. > > \starttext > > \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after= > \stoplinecorrection][start=11] > \item foo > \stopitemize > > \stoptext You can’t have a assignment in both parameters because this would lead to the same problem as before, combine both settings in one argument and it works. Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 5:46 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-20 5:49 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 7:21 ` [luatex] " Patrick Gundlach ` (2 more replies) 2012-03-20 22:18 ` Kip Warner 1 sibling, 3 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 5:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Wolfgang Schuster Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 472 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > TeX has it’s problem with certain errors, accept it. It is not a problem with the program raising an error, it was how it went about doing it. It should not have to take down the entire operating system to indicate to the user that there was a non-intuitive syntactical error in typesetting. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 5:49 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 7:21 ` Patrick Gundlach 2012-03-20 15:02 ` Khaled Hosny 2012-03-20 8:17 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 14:57 ` [luatex] " Khaled Hosny 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Patrick Gundlach @ 2012-03-20 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: General discussion of LuaTeX.; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 20.03.2012 um 06:49 schrieb Kip Warner: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >> TeX has it’s problem with certain errors, accept it. > > It is not a problem with the program raising an error, it was how it > went about doing it. It should not have to take down the entire > operating system to indicate to the user that there was a non-intuitive > syntactical error in typesetting. I also agree that a segfault is not an acceptable behavior of a program, regardless of the input (unless you are doing low level stuff). But it is not clear if this is a problem on the ConTeXt side or the LuaTeX side. Patrick ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 7:21 ` [luatex] " Patrick Gundlach @ 2012-03-20 15:02 ` Khaled Hosny 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Khaled Hosny @ 2012-03-20 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: General discussion of LuaTeX. On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 08:21:35AM +0100, Patrick Gundlach wrote: > > Am 20.03.2012 um 06:49 schrieb Kip Warner: > > > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > >> TeX has it’s problem with certain errors, accept it. > > > > It is not a problem with the program raising an error, it was how it > > went about doing it. It should not have to take down the entire > > operating system to indicate to the user that there was a non-intuitive > > syntactical error in typesetting. > > > I also agree that a segfault is not an acceptable behavior of a > program, regardless of the input (unless you are doing low level > stuff). But it is not clear if this is a problem on the ConTeXt side > or the LuaTeX side. It did not segfault, it just consumed all available memory :) A sane operating system wouldn't allow any program to do this (mine is not sane, I know, but luatex is hardly the only program that does this to me). Regards, Khaled ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 5:49 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 7:21 ` [luatex] " Patrick Gundlach @ 2012-03-20 8:17 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 10:05 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-20 18:50 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 14:57 ` [luatex] " Khaled Hosny 2 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 8:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Kip Warner, General discussion of LuaTeX. On 20-3-2012 06:49, Kip Warner wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >> TeX has it’s problem with certain errors, accept it. > > It is not a problem with the program raising an error, it was how it > went about doing it. It should not have to take down the entire > operating system to indicate to the user that there was a non-intuitive > syntactical error in typesetting. tex is a macro language and that has benefits but also drawbacks; as soon as you end up in unwanted expansion things can get nasty; anyhow, I get Runaway argument? {before=\startlinecorrection ,after= \stoplinecorrection }]{\dodoubleemptyYESone \ETC. ! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [token memory size=90996078]. which is not really a crash of my operating system; there is not much I can do about this issue I fear. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 8:17 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 10:05 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-20 18:50 ` Kip Warner 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2012-03-20 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 20-3-2012 06:49, Kip Warner wrote: >> >> On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >>> >>> TeX has it’s problem with certain errors, accept it. >> >> >> It is not a problem with the program raising an error, it was how it >> went about doing it. It should not have to take down the entire >> operating system to indicate to the user that there was a non-intuitive >> syntactical error in typesetting. > > > tex is a macro language and that has benefits but also drawbacks; as soon as > you end up in unwanted expansion things can get nasty; anyhow, I get > > Runaway argument? > {before=\startlinecorrection ,after= \stoplinecorrection > }]{\dodoubleemptyYESone \ETC. > ! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [token memory size=90996078]. > > which is not really a crash of my operating system; there is not much I can > do about this issue I fear. > Even here Runaway argument? {before=\startlinecorrection ,after=\stoplinecorrection }]{\dodoubleemptyYESone \ETC. ! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [token memory size=188689465]. on Linux 32bit kernel (on a 64bit processor) -- is the example on a 64bit kernel ? -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 8:17 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 10:05 ` luigi scarso @ 2012-03-20 18:50 ` Kip Warner 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 344 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 09:17 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: > which is not really a crash of my operating system; there is not much > I > can do about this issue I fear. Totally up to you. I just wanted to bring it to your attention. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 5:49 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 7:21 ` [luatex] " Patrick Gundlach 2012-03-20 8:17 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 14:57 ` Khaled Hosny 2012-03-20 18:59 ` Kip Warner 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Khaled Hosny @ 2012-03-20 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: General discussion of LuaTeX.; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:49:48PM -0700, Kip Warner wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > > TeX has it’s problem with certain errors, accept it. > > It is not a problem with the program raising an error, it was how it > went about doing it. It should not have to take down the entire > operating system to indicate to the user that there was a non-intuitive > syntactical error in typesetting. Older TeX engines had hard memory limit, so in case of such "syntactical" errors the engine would consume all its allocated memory and die (with a misleading error message), LuaTeX dynamically allocates memory (for good reasons) so it won't stop before consuming all your available memory, its the responsibility of an operating system to prevent such a faulty application from taking the whole system down. Regards, Khaled ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 14:57 ` [luatex] " Khaled Hosny @ 2012-03-20 18:59 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 19:26 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 714 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 16:57 +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote: > Older TeX engines had hard memory limit, so in case of such > "syntactical" errors the engine would consume all its allocated memory > and die (with a misleading error message), LuaTeX dynamically allocates > memory (for good reasons) so it won't stop before consuming all your > available memory, its the responsibility of an operating system to > prevent such a faulty application from taking the whole system down. I'd be very interested in seeing the operating system memory manager's algorithm that could do such a remarkable thing. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 18:59 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 19:26 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 19:59 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Kip Warner, General discussion of LuaTeX. On 20-3-2012 19:59, Kip Warner wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 16:57 +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote: >> Older TeX engines had hard memory limit, so in case of such >> "syntactical" errors the engine would consume all its allocated memory >> and die (with a misleading error message), LuaTeX dynamically allocates >> memory (for good reasons) so it won't stop before consuming all your >> available memory, its the responsibility of an operating system to >> prevent such a faulty application from taking the whole system down. > > I'd be very interested in seeing the operating system memory manager's > algorithm that could do such a remarkable thing. well you can try what happens if you run stock lua: local t = { } while true do t[#t+1] = "just a bogus string: " .. (#t+1) end at some point your system will run out of (virtual) memory or lua will run out of whatever its limits are Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 19:26 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 19:59 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 20:39 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-20 20:44 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 616 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 20:26 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: > well you can try what happens if you run stock lua: > > local t = { } > while true do > t[#t+1] = "just a bogus string: " .. (#t+1) > end > > at some point your system will run out of (virtual) memory or lua will > run out of whatever its limits are Of course. And the same could be done in C, C++, or really any language that supports dynamic memory allocation. We just hope that programs that are built from them won't do that. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 19:59 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 20:39 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-20 21:24 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 20:44 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2012-03-20 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 8:59 PM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 20:26 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: >> well you can try what happens if you run stock lua: >> >> local t = { } >> while true do >> t[#t+1] = "just a bogus string: " .. (#t+1) >> end >> >> at some point your system will run out of (virtual) memory or lua will >> run out of whatever its limits are > > Of course. And the same could be done in C, C++, or really any language > that supports dynamic memory allocation. We just hope that programs that > are built from them won't do that. When TeX says ! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [token memory size=<...>] it is its graceful way to exit from an irreversible situation. It can be caused by luatex or ConTeXt mkiv but it's *not* a segmentation fault, as you said early: >Actually highly probably, since the seg fault is raised in luatex and >not context. Even if context is feeding it malformed input, luatex >should not ever crash. Only luatex can do a segmentation fault -- of course due a tex macro /lua function possibly called from ConTeXt. What happen for me (linux ubuntu 10lts 32bit) and Hans (windows (7 professional 64bit ?) ) is a "TeX capacity exceeded," , not a seg. fault, and sometime happen if one calls a macro in a wrong way. So, do you have a segmentation fault or a TeX capacity exceeded on you linux 64bit box ? -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 20:39 ` luigi scarso @ 2012-03-20 21:24 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 21:41 ` luigi scarso 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1295 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 21:39 +0100, luigi scarso wrote: > When TeX says > ! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [token memory size=<...>] > it is its graceful way to exit from an irreversible situation. > It can be caused by luatex or ConTeXt mkiv > but it's *not* a segmentation fault, as you said early: > >Actually highly probably, since the seg fault is raised in luatex and > >not context. Even if context is feeding it malformed input, luatex > >should not ever crash. > Only luatex can do a segmentation fault -- of course due a tex macro > /lua function possibly called from ConTeXt. > What happen for me (linux ubuntu 10lts 32bit) and Hans (windows (7 > professional 64bit ?) ) is a "TeX capacity exceeded," , not a seg. > fault, and sometime happen if one calls a macro in a wrong way. > So, do you have a segmentation fault or a TeX capacity exceeded on you > linux 64bit box ? As I said earlier, I get a segmentation fault if I leave it to run, but I always have to kill it before it takes down the entire operating system with it (apparently this is normal). I don't get the TeX capacity exceeded error message, as you saw from my earlier console output. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 21:24 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 21:41 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-22 1:50 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2012-03-20 21:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 21:39 +0100, luigi scarso wrote: >> When TeX says >> ! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [token memory size=<...>] >> it is its graceful way to exit from an irreversible situation. >> It can be caused by luatex or ConTeXt mkiv >> but it's *not* a segmentation fault, as you said early: >> >Actually highly probably, since the seg fault is raised in luatex and >> >not context. Even if context is feeding it malformed input, luatex >> >should not ever crash. >> Only luatex can do a segmentation fault -- of course due a tex macro >> /lua function possibly called from ConTeXt. >> What happen for me (linux ubuntu 10lts 32bit) and Hans (windows (7 >> professional 64bit ?) ) is a "TeX capacity exceeded," , not a seg. >> fault, and sometime happen if one calls a macro in a wrong way. >> So, do you have a segmentation fault or a TeX capacity exceeded on you >> linux 64bit box ? > > As I said earlier, I get a segmentation fault if I leave it to run, but > I always have to kill it before it takes down the entire operating > system with it (apparently this is normal). I don't get the TeX capacity > exceeded error message, as you saw from my earlier console output. Ok, this is not normal and I suspect that it's linux 64bit issue -- can be bug of luatex then. Can anyone confirm that on linux 64bit the following \starttext \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection][] \item foo \stopitemize \stoptext gives a segmentation fault ? -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 21:41 ` luigi scarso @ 2012-03-22 1:50 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-22 1:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1097 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 22:41 +0100, luigi scarso wrote: > > As I said earlier, I get a segmentation fault if I leave it to run, but > > I always have to kill it before it takes down the entire operating > > system with it (apparently this is normal). I don't get the TeX capacity > > exceeded error message, as you saw from my earlier console output. > Ok, this is not normal and I suspect that it's linux 64bit issue -- > can be bug of luatex then. > Can anyone confirm that on linux 64bit the following > \starttext > > \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection][] > \item foo > \stopitemize > \stoptext > gives a segmentation fault ? What's probably happening is eventually the system runs out of memory, the swap gets depleted as well, and as a last act of desperation, the kernel finally denies an allocation request to luatex which is pretty rare. The latter probably then dereferences the null pointer and then it blows. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 19:59 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 20:39 ` luigi scarso @ 2012-03-20 20:44 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 21:26 ` Kip Warner 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kip Warner; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. On 20-3-2012 20:59, Kip Warner wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 20:26 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: >> well you can try what happens if you run stock lua: >> >> local t = { } >> while true do >> t[#t+1] = "just a bogus string: " .. (#t+1) >> end >> >> at some point your system will run out of (virtual) memory or lua will >> run out of whatever its limits are > > Of course. And the same could be done in C, C++, or really any language > that supports dynamic memory allocation. We just hope that programs that > are built from them won't do that. sure, but mu experience is that browsers of email clients are way more demanding than tex when it comes to memory usage for tex it depends how much memory is permitted (there are some maxima that can be set in configuration files) ... i must say that I never run out of memory, although with doing extreme torture tests with many fonts one can come pretty close Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [luatex] Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 20:44 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 21:26 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 21:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 906 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 21:44 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: > sure, but mu experience is that browsers of email clients are way more > demanding than tex when it comes to memory usage I've never had either take down the entire operating system. There is a different from intended memory usage and unintended anyways. In this case, we are talking about the latter. > for tex it depends how much memory is permitted (there are some maxima > that can be set in configuration files) ... i must say that I never run > out of memory, although with doing extreme torture tests with many fonts > one can come pretty close Well, you saw what happened with my sample minimal. Anyways, if this is normal behaviour, that's fine, I just wanted to bring it to the list's attention. That's all. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 5:46 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-20 5:49 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 22:18 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 22:22 ` Aditya Mahajan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 22:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Wolfgang Schuster; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 616 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: > You can’t have a assignment in both parameters because this would lead > to the same problem as before, > combine both settings in one argument and it works. I must not be doing it right because the item numbers are gone now and replaced with hyphens: \startitemize[R,2*broad,before=\startlinecorrection,after= \stoplinecorrection,start=11] \setupitemize[left=(, right=)] \item foo. \item foo. \stopitemize -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 22:18 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 22:22 ` Aditya Mahajan 2012-03-22 2:01 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2012-03-20 22:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 1084 bytes --] On Tue, 20 Mar 2012, Kip Warner wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 06:46 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >> You can’t have a assignment in both parameters because this would lead >> to the same problem as before, >> combine both settings in one argument and it works. > > I must not be doing it right because the item numbers are gone now and > replaced with hyphens: > > \startitemize[R,2*broad,before=\startlinecorrection,after= > \stoplinecorrection,start=11] > \setupitemize[left=(, right=)] > \item foo. > \item foo. > \stopitemize You are back to square one :) You cannot mix options (R, 2*broad, anything without an = sign) with assignments (before=..., after=..., anything with an = sign). The format of \startitemize is \startitemize[options][assignments] or \startitemize[options] or \startitemize[assignments] Anything else will leave to undersirable behaviour (or segfaults :) ) As I had said in one of my earlier emails, this is the case for ALL context macros that take both options and assignments. Aditya [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 22:22 ` Aditya Mahajan @ 2012-03-22 2:01 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec 2012-03-22 12:05 ` luigi scarso 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-22 2:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1288 bytes --] On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 18:22 -0400, Aditya Mahajan wrote: > Anything else will leave to undersirable behaviour (or segfaults :) ) As I > had said in one of my earlier emails, this is the case for ALL context > macros that take both options and assignments. Fair enough. I got it to work now with, \startitemize[R,2*broad][start=11,before=\startlinecorrection,after= \stoplinecorrection] My only concern here is that, for something as incredibly fundamental and recurring in the world of ConTeXt, the caveats and distinctions to be made between options and assignments, that can and have taken down entire operating systems, or cause hour after hour of no end of vague syntactical errors, or even successful compilations with the wrong effects, shouldn't that probably have been mentioned at least once, even if only in passing, somewhere within the 369 page user manual? The word "assignment" I couldn't locate once. I'm not sure if this is a concept inherited from TeX, but if it is, it's probably not a good idea for the documentation and the user interface to assume that ConTeXt users have a background with TeX or derived. Thanks for the help, -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 2:01 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen ` (3 more replies) 2012-03-22 12:05 ` luigi scarso 1 sibling, 4 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Mojca Miklavec @ 2012-03-22 10:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 03:01, Kip Warner wrote: > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 18:22 -0400, Aditya Mahajan wrote: >> Anything else will leave to undersirable behaviour (or segfaults :) ) As I >> had said in one of my earlier emails, this is the case for ALL context >> macros that take both options and assignments. > > Fair enough. I got it to work now with, > > \startitemize[R,2*broad][start=11,before=\startlinecorrection,after= > \stoplinecorrection] > > My only concern here is that, for something as incredibly fundamental > and recurring in the world of ConTeXt, the caveats and distinctions to > be made between options and assignments, that can and have taken down > entire operating systems, or cause hour after hour of no end of vague > syntactical errors, or even successful compilations with the wrong > effects, shouldn't that probably have been mentioned at least once, even > if only in passing, somewhere within the 369 page user manual? The word > "assignment" I couldn't locate once. - The fact that assignments and simple options have to be separated is not a limitation of TeX, but the way how ConTeXt is programmed. Hans uses a single command that takes all options inside brackets at once that defines (results in) something similar to (syntax is not exact and is probably completely different in MKIV) \@@itmstart -> 11, \@@itmbefore -> \startlinecorrection, etc. - Maybe it could be more explicit, but if you ever take a look at documentation, for example http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupitemgroup you will notice that some brackets are depicted with [...,...] and others with [...,...=...,...] - The fact that luatex crashes is simply a bug that should be fixed, so if you didn't do it already, please add a ticket to the tracker. It would help a lot if somebody could come up with plain LuaTeX example that does approximately the same since it might happen that until the bug gets fixed, Hans might reimplement some functionality and then LuaTeX won't crash on the same input any more. Lots and lots of bugs in LuaTeX have been fixed in past, but most of them happened on regular/proper/allowed input. Not many people use wrong ConTeXt syntax on regular basis to be able to spot such problems. I also bet that if somebody else would start writing his own TeX format comparable to ConTeXt, quite some new bugs might have surfaced that one would never stumble upon during regular use. Mojca ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec @ 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-22 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Mojca Miklavec On 22-3-2012 11:38, Mojca Miklavec wrote: > - The fact that assignments and simple options have to be separated is > not a limitation of TeX, but the way how ConTeXt is programmed. Hans > uses a single command that takes all options inside brackets at once > that defines (results in) something similar to (syntax is not exact > and is probably completely different in MKIV) \@@itmstart -> 11, > \@@itmbefore -> \startlinecorrection, etc. fyi: In mkiv the principle is the same but it's a bit more more dynamic: \<namespace><instance>:<key> with namespace being efficiently shortcut deep down in context. The new fashion is then \<namespace>parameter{key} given that \current<namespace> == <instance> is set. This is the new commandhandler approach that we use in overhauled core code as well as in Wolfgangs and Adityas modules. The dynamic approach is somewhat slower but it's compensated by way less hash entries and other speedups in the overhaul. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-22 11:21 ` Philipp Gesang 2012-03-22 22:40 ` Kip Warner 3 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-22 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 22-3-2012 11:38, Mojca Miklavec wrote: > - The fact that assignments and simple options have to be separated is > not a limitation of TeX, but the way how ConTeXt is programmed. Hans > uses a single command that takes all options inside brackets at once > that defines (results in) something similar to (syntax is not exact > and is probably completely different in MKIV) \@@itmstart -> 11, > \@@itmbefore -> \startlinecorrection, etc. fyi: In mkiv the principle is the same but it's a bit more more dynamic: \<namespace><instance>:<key> with namespace being efficiently shortcut deep down in context. The new fashion is then \<namespace>parameter{key} given that \current<namespace> == <instance> is set. This is the new commandhandler approach that we use in overhauled core code as well as in Wolfgangs and Adityas modules. The dynamic approach is somewhat slower but it's compensated by way less hash entries and other speedups in the overhaul. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-22 11:21 ` Philipp Gesang 2012-03-22 11:58 ` Philipp Gesang 2012-03-22 22:46 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 22:40 ` Kip Warner 3 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Philipp Gesang @ 2012-03-22 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: kip [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2471 bytes --] On 2012-03-22 11:38, Mojca Miklavec wrote: > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 03:01, Kip Warner wrote: > > On Tue, 2012-03-20 at 18:22 -0400, Aditya Mahajan wrote: > >> Anything else will leave to undersirable behaviour (or segfaults :) ) As I > >> had said in one of my earlier emails, this is the case for ALL context > >> macros that take both options and assignments. > > > > Fair enough. I got it to work now with, > > > > \startitemize[R,2*broad][start=11,before=\startlinecorrection,after= > > \stoplinecorrection] > > > > My only concern here is that, for something as incredibly fundamental > > and recurring in the world of ConTeXt, the caveats and distinctions to > > be made between options and assignments, that can and have taken down > > entire operating systems, or cause hour after hour of no end of vague > > syntactical errors, or even successful compilations with the wrong > > effects, shouldn't that probably have been mentioned at least once, even > > if only in passing, somewhere within the 369 page user manual? The word > > "assignment" I couldn't locate once. You’re right, it can cause confusion to people migrating from Latex where package options, afair, allows mixed key-value/list syntax (like e.g. Lua does as well). Random example from the KOMA-Script manual: \documentclass[BCOR=12mm,DIV=calc,twoside]{scrartcl} ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ assignment … switch Therefore the difference to Context deserves mention at least somewhere in <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/From_LaTeX_to_ConTeXt> which said migrators are most likely to consult first. > - Maybe it could be more explicit, but if you ever take a look at > documentation, for example > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupitemgroup > you will notice that some brackets are depicted with [...,...] and > others with [...,...=...,...] And while we are handing out reading assignments (pun intended) here are two wiki links that provide background information: <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/System_Macros/Comma_Separated_Lists> <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/System_Macros/Key_Value_Assignments> Perhaps it makes most sense to think of Comma Lists v. Assignment Lists in terms of the two different argument parsers being used to process them. Regards Philipp -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 11:21 ` Philipp Gesang @ 2012-03-22 11:58 ` Philipp Gesang 2012-03-22 22:47 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 22:46 ` Kip Warner 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Philipp Gesang @ 2012-03-22 11:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 539 bytes --] On 2012-03-22 12:21, Philipp Gesang wrote: > Therefore the difference to Context deserves mention at least > somewhere in > <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/From_LaTeX_to_ConTeXt> > which said migrators are most likely to consult first. Fyi I just added a couple words to the article: <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/From_LaTeX_to_ConTeXt#Optional_Arguments_and_Setups> please expand as needed! Regards Philipp -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 11:58 ` Philipp Gesang @ 2012-03-22 22:47 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-22 22:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 346 bytes --] On Thu, 2012-03-22 at 12:58 +0100, Philipp Gesang wrote: > Fyi I just added a couple words to the article: > <http://wiki.contextgarden.net/From_LaTeX_to_ConTeXt#Optional_Arguments_and_Setups> > please expand as needed! Thank you. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 11:21 ` Philipp Gesang 2012-03-22 11:58 ` Philipp Gesang @ 2012-03-22 22:46 ` Kip Warner 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-22 22:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1260 bytes --] On Thu, 2012-03-22 at 12:21 +0100, Philipp Gesang wrote: > You’re right, it can cause confusion to people migrating from > Latex where package options, afair, allows mixed key-value/list > syntax (like e.g. Lua does as well). Random example from the > KOMA-Script manual: > > \documentclass[BCOR=12mm,DIV=calc,twoside]{scrartcl} > ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ > assignment … switch Thanks Philipp. I'm finding that one of the big weaknesses of ConTeXt is similar to a common criticism of the first one listed on Git here: https://steveko.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/10-things-i-hate-about-git/ It requires users to know too much about how ConTeXt actually works internally (e.g. its information model). Maybe this is necessary. Maybe it isn't. I'm fairly new to typesetting and never came from a background of decades of experience with TeX. But it seems to me like any programming language, and ConTeXt is a kind of one for document engineering, should have users focusing on creating beautiful books and not on the language's information and processing model. Just my two cents. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2012-03-22 11:21 ` Philipp Gesang @ 2012-03-22 22:40 ` Kip Warner 3 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-22 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1118 bytes --] On Thu, 2012-03-22 at 11:38 +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote: > - Maybe it could be more explicit, but if you ever take a look at > documentation Sorry, but which documentation should one obviously be looking at? The half a dozen PDFs, the several versions of the wiki, the mailing list, one of the actual hard copy books, the source code? Bits and pieces are scattered everywhere with little rhyme or reason at times. > , for example > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupitemgroup > you will notice that some brackets are depicted with [...,...] and > others with [...,...=...,...] Yes, and where was the thinking behind that explained in the user manual? It wasn't. Look for the word "assignment". > - The fact that luatex crashes is simply a bug that should be fixed, > so if you didn't do it already, please add a ticket to the tracker. I cc'd the minimal example to the luatex mailing list, but I won't have time right now to get more details for them on their tracker. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 2:01 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec @ 2012-03-22 12:05 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-22 16:38 ` luigi scarso 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2012-03-22 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: >What's probably happening is eventually the system runs out of memory, >the swap gets depleted as well, and as a last act of desperation, the >kernel finally denies an allocation request to luatex which is pretty >rare. The latter probably then dereferences the null pointer and then it >blows. Yes, can be, but LuaTex has it's memory manager that should manage this situation just to avoid segmentation faults. I will see if I'm able to setup a vm . > > I'm not sure if this is a concept inherited from TeX, but if it is, it's > probably not a good idea for the documentation and the user interface to > assume that ConTeXt users have a background with TeX or derived. Hm, ConTeXt is rooted in TeX and plain TeX. It helps a lot to know TeX (and eTeX and pdfTeX). -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-22 12:05 ` luigi scarso @ 2012-03-22 16:38 ` luigi scarso 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2012-03-22 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 1:05 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: > >>What's probably happening is eventually the system runs out of memory, >>the swap gets depleted as well, and as a last act of desperation, the >>kernel finally denies an allocation request to luatex which is pretty >>rare. The latter probably then dereferences the null pointer and then it >>blows. > Yes, can be, but LuaTex has it's memory manager that should manage > this situation > just to avoid segmentation faults. I will see if I'm able to setup a vm . On a qemu vm Suse 11.3 Linux linux 2.6.34-12-desktop #1 SMP PREEMPT 2010-06-29 02:39:08 +0200 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux at runlevel 3 after 7minuts I have Runaway argument? {before=\startlinecorrection ,after=\stoplinecorrection }]{\dodoubleemptyYESone \ETC. ! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [token memory size=226427358]. The vm was slow but usable, the max load factor was 2.3 . No segmentation fault. -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-18 23:29 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-19 8:17 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2012-03-19 21:49 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 0:43 ` Kip Warner 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-19 21:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Kip Warner, General discussion of LuaTeX. On 19-3-2012 00:29, Kip Warner wrote: >> I've cc'd the luatex user mailing list since this is probably, I >> suppose, a luatex issue more than a ConTeXt one. not that probable > One other thing that I should have made more clear, this only happens > when I insert the aforementioned line correction commands. test needed Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-19 21:49 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 0:43 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 8:11 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 0:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 640 bytes --] On Mon, 2012-03-19 at 22:49 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: > On 19-3-2012 00:29, Kip Warner wrote: > > >> I've cc'd the luatex user mailing list since this is probably, I > >> suppose, a luatex issue more than a ConTeXt one. > > not that probable Actually highly probably, since the seg fault is raised in luatex and not context. Even if context is feeding it malformed input, luatex should not ever crash. > test needed On it. My book is a couple hundred pages long, so hopefully I will be able to come up with one. -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-20 0:43 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 8:11 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 8:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kip Warner; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, General discussion of LuaTeX. On 20-3-2012 01:43, Kip Warner wrote: > On Mon, 2012-03-19 at 22:49 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: >> On 19-3-2012 00:29, Kip Warner wrote: >> >>>> I've cc'd the luatex user mailing list since this is probably, I >>>> suppose, a luatex issue more than a ConTeXt one. >> >> not that probable > > Actually highly probably, since the seg fault is raised in luatex and > not context. Even if context is feeding it malformed input, luatex > should not ever crash. it depends ... if some node list juggling happens in macros/lua code and something is done wrong there, one can run out of memory (for instance) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-18 23:25 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-18 23:29 ` Kip Warner @ 2012-03-18 23:33 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-19 21:50 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2012-03-18 23:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: > On Sat, 2012-03-17 at 11:21 +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote: >> Am 17.03.2012 um 10:21 schrieb luigi scarso: >> >> > On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Kip Warner <kip@thevertigo.com> wrote: >> >> Hey list, >> >> >> >> Is there any way to hint to ConTeXt that the contents of a \startitemize >> >> \stopitemize pair should try to be all on the same page? >> > plain old tex >> > \vbox{% >> > \startitemize >> > \stopitemize% >> > } >> >> Better: >> >> \startitemize[before=\startlinecorrection,after=\stoplinecorrection] >> >> \stopitemize >> >> You can control the space before/after the linecorrection environment with the optional >> argument which accepts all values for \blank, e.g. \startlinecorrection[2*line]. >> >> Wolfgang > > Hey Wolfgang, > > The good news is that this is probably what I need. The bad news is > luatex completely blows itself to pieces, allocating memory until the > system crashes. example ? -- luigi ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-18 23:25 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-18 23:29 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-18 23:33 ` luigi scarso @ 2012-03-19 21:50 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 0:41 ` Kip Warner 2 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-19 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Kip Warner, General discussion of LuaTeX. On 19-3-2012 00:25, Kip Warner wrote: > The good news is that this is probably what I need. The bad news is > luatex completely blows itself to pieces, allocating memory until the > system crashes. Packaging itemizes are on a todo list as I sometimes need it myself, but it has a low priority Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Itemize without page break 2012-03-19 21:50 ` Hans Hagen @ 2012-03-20 0:41 ` Kip Warner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Kip Warner @ 2012-03-20 0:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 328 bytes --] On Mon, 2012-03-19 at 22:50 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote: > Packaging itemizes are on a todo list as I sometimes need it myself, but > it has a low priority Ok, but I thought they were already "packaged" with context? -- Kip Warner -- Software Engineer OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred http://www.thevertigo.com [-- Attachment #1.2: This is a digitally signed message part --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 45+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-03-22 22:47 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 45+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2012-03-17 1:47 Itemize without page break Kip Warner 2012-03-17 9:21 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-17 10:21 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-18 23:25 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-18 23:29 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-19 8:17 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-20 1:04 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 5:22 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-20 5:31 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 5:46 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2012-03-20 5:49 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 7:21 ` [luatex] " Patrick Gundlach 2012-03-20 15:02 ` Khaled Hosny 2012-03-20 8:17 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 10:05 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-20 18:50 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 14:57 ` [luatex] " Khaled Hosny 2012-03-20 18:59 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 19:26 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 19:59 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 20:39 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-20 21:24 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 21:41 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-22 1:50 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 20:44 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 21:26 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 22:18 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 22:22 ` Aditya Mahajan 2012-03-22 2:01 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 10:38 ` Mojca Miklavec 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-22 11:21 ` Philipp Gesang 2012-03-22 11:58 ` Philipp Gesang 2012-03-22 22:47 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 22:46 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 22:40 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-22 12:05 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-22 16:38 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-19 21:49 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 0:43 ` Kip Warner 2012-03-20 8:11 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-18 23:33 ` luigi scarso 2012-03-19 21:50 ` Hans Hagen 2012-03-20 0:41 ` Kip Warner
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