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From: mf <massifr@fastwebnet.it>
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Subject: Re: italian index: "I" and "J" under "I", "U" and "V" under "V"
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 21:59:34 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1498507174.2664.1.camel@fastwebnet.it> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <2f3aef6b-a570-1675-fe43-e9fb29d1ec96@wxs.nl>

> in sort-lan.lua you can fix the table:
> 
> definitions["it"] = {
>      entries = {
> 
> (not sure which italian is responsible for it)
> 
> Hans
> 
> 

Thank you, Hans.
Looking at the code, there's a revealing comment before the definitions
for the Latin language: 

-- Treating the post-classical fricatives “j” and “v” as “i” and “u”
-- respectively.

When I saw the bug, I suspected something like that, because "U" and
"V" are written as "V" in Latin, but not in Italian.
The letter "j" replaces "i" also in Italian when it's between vowels
or  when it's at the beginning of a word, followed by a vowel. But this
is the Italian of a century or at least decades ago; in modern Italian
it is rarely used and you won't find it i.e. in newspapers.

Quoting from Wikipedia (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfabeto_italiano
):

"Il latino classico non distingueva graficamente la U dalla V (il
latino classico aveva solo la U e scriveva parole come divvs per  per
/ˈdiːwus/); in epoca classica e soprattutto nel latino medievale (che è
arrivato fino a noi tramite l'uso ecclesiastico) iniziò a farsi sentire
una distinzione tra U e V e quindi la nuova consonante venne creata
modificando la V in U..."

Classical latin did not distinguish graphically "U" from "V"
(classical  latin had only the "U" letter and wrote words like "divvus"
for /ˈdiːwus/); during classical antiquity and even more in medieval
latin (which arrived to us through ecclesiastical use) a distinction
between "U" and "V" started to emerge, so the new consonant had been
created modifying the "V" letter into "U"...

"La J inizia ad essere usata nel '500 fino all'inizio del XX secolo,
sia per indicare il suono semiconsonantico della I (jella), ovvero la
"i" intervocalica (grondaja, aja), e come segno tipografico per la
doppia i (principj).
Le lettere I e J erano ancora considerate equivalenti, per quanto 
riguarda l'ordine alfabetico nei dizionari e nelle enciclopedie 
italiani, fino alla metà del XX secolo."

The "J" letter started to be used in XVI century until the beginning of
the XX century, to suggest the semiconsonantic sound of "I" (jella) or
the "i" between vowels (grondaja, aja), and also as a typographic sign
for the double "i" (principj).
"I" and "J" letters were still considered equivalent in the alphabetic
order for italian dictionaries and encyclopedias until the midst of XX
century.

Getting back, to sort-lan.lua, it should be like this:
-------------------------------
definitions["it"] = {
  entries = {
      ["a"] = "a", ["á"] = "a", ["b"] = "b", ["c"] = "c", ["d"] = "d",
      ["e"] = "e", ["é"] = "e", ["è"] = "e", ["f"] = "f", ["g"] = "g",
      ["h"] = "h", ["i"] = "i", ["í"] = "i", ["ì"] = "i", ["j"] = "j",
      ["k"] = "k", ["l"] = "l", ["m"] = "m", ["n"] = "n", ["o"] = "o",
      ["ó"] = "o", ["ò"] = "o", ["p"] = "p", ["q"] = "q", ["r"] = "r",
      ["s"] = "s", ["t"] = "t", ["u"] = "u", ["ú"] = "u", ["ù"] = "u",
      ["v"] = "v", ["w"] = "w", ["x"] = "x", ["y"] = "y", ["z"] = "z",
  },
-------------------------------

Thank you again,
best regards,
Massi
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  reply	other threads:[~2017-06-26 19:59 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 6+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-06-26 12:48 MF
2017-06-26 13:34 ` Hans Hagen
2017-06-26 19:59   ` mf [this message]
2017-06-26 21:39   ` Hans Åberg
2017-06-27  7:06     ` Hans Hagen
2017-06-27  8:43       ` Hans Åberg

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