From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/77170 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Rogers, Michael K" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: clutter with \start and \stop Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 07:16:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19AD29AC-C288-4C25-B10C-C3F306F0D999@emory.edu> References: <87fw98e9wl.fsf@micropit.couberia.bzh> <4FF3F9A5.2070107@wxs.nl> <87wr2jclse.fsf@micropit.couberia.bzh> <16AB29D5-539E-4639-A2F9-631D9FBDBB1E@emory.edu> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0633979478==" X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1341472608 22777 80.91.229.3 (5 Jul 2012 07:16:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 07:16:48 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Thu Jul 05 09:16:48 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SmgIv-0005ke-Nj for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 09:16:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3C2101DF; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:16:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id UFP9Keg0aAvK; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:16:40 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446A1101F8; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:16:40 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57733101F8 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:16:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id IO+Ia1pmi2Dr for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:16:38 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from filter2-til.mf.surf.net (filter2-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.218]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2432D101DF for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:16:37 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ndb-mr3.cc.emory.edu (ndb-mr3.cc.emory.edu [170.140.53.253]) by filter2-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id q657GZ0i015600 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:16:36 +0200 Original-Received: from e14edge2w.Emory.Edu (emoryfloatdmz.cc.emory.edu [170.140.52.254]) by ndb-mr3.cc.emory.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q657GXgA015026 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 03:16:33 -0400 Original-Received: from E14CH1W.Enterprise.emory.net (10.240.10.113) by e14edge2w.Emory.Edu (170.140.108.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.283.3; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 03:16:33 -0400 Original-Received: from E14MBX23N.Enterprise.emory.net ([fe80::b473:ef05:b37f:5ccd]) by e14ch1w.Enterprise.emory.net ([::1]) with mapi id 14.02.0283.003; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 03:16:33 -0400 Thread-Topic: [NTG-context] clutter with \start and \stop Thread-Index: AQHNWW57f3cxxu/woUugvdxeMeTh1JcZCCyAgACMuemAAGhdgIAAeKyAgAAWdoA= In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [170.140.30.131] X-Emory-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-Emory-MailScanner-ID: q657GXgA015026 X-Emory-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Emory-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-0.009, required 8, autolearn=disabled, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD -0.01) X-Emory-MailScanner-From: mroge02@emory.edu X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=170.140.53.253; country=US; region=GA; city=Atlanta; postalcode=30322; latitude=33.7952; longitude=-84.3248; metrocode=524; areacode=404; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=33.7952,-84.3248&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0THuvgzxM - dcf4c372511a - 20120705 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 194.171.167.218 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:77170 Archived-At: --===============0633979478== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_19AD29ACC2884C25B10CC3F306F0D999emoryedu_" --_000_19AD29ACC2884C25B10CC3F306F0D999emoryedu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:56 PM, luigi scarso wrote: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Rogers, Michael K > wrote: XML seems a nice way for machines to deal with data. But it's not a very h= uman way to speak. I mean, if I write "\section{One}...\section{Two}" isn'= t it obvious that section One ends when section Two begins? Why should I h= ave to write \endsection, when the machine can do the bookkeeping for me? = The start/stop mechanism is nice as an option, if you plan to produce an XM= L document from ConTeXt. However the XML translator could implement 'if no= t first section then "
" else "
"' and add "if in= _a_section then "
"' when \stoptext is reached. Hm, consider this \section{One} \input knuth Text \section{Two} \input knuth and \startsection{One} \input knuth \stopsection Text \startsection{Two} \input knuth \stopsection In the last one it's clear that Text is not in the section One or in the s= ection Two: In the first one, Text is in section One --- but how can I put= Text so that is not in section One and not in section Two ? Most of the time section One ends where section Two begins, but it's not = true that *always* section One ends where section Two begins : infact the= last one is a legal example. I agree. When I said start/stop mechanisms are nice options, I had in mind= they are useful, even indispensable, alternatives for certain sorts of str= ucturing, as your example shows -- at the time of writing, I focused on XML= . I could equally say \section is a nice option. Still, if I want to writ= e a paper that consists of a sequence of sections, it's easier to just use = \section, and an XML translator could be written to mark it up accordingly. ________________________________ This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments). --_000_19AD29ACC2884C25B10CC3F306F0D999emoryedu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:56 PM, luigi scarso wrote:
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Rogers, Michael= K <mroge02@emory.ed= u> wrote:

XML seems a nice way for machines to deal with data.  But it's not a v= ery human way to speak.  I mean, if I write "\section{One}...\sec= tion{Two}" isn't it obvious that section One ends when section Two beg= ins?  Why should I have to write \endsection, when the machine can do the bookkeeping for me?  The start/stop mechanism is n= ice as an option, if you plan to produce an XML document from ConTeXt. &nbs= p;However the XML translator could implement 'if not first section then &qu= ot;</section><section>" else "<section>"' = and add "if in_a_section then "</section>"' when \stoptext is= reached.

Hm, consider this
\section{One} \input knuth
Text
\section{Two} \input knuth
and
\startsection{One} \input knuth
\stopsection
Text
\startsection{Two} \input knuth
\stopsection

In the last one it's clear that Text is not in the section One  o= r in the section Two: In the first one, Text is in section One ---  bu= t how can I put Text so that is not in section One and not in section Two ?=
Most of the time section One  ends where section Two begins, but =  it's not true that *always* section One  ends where se= ction Two begins :  infact the last one is a legal example.

I agree.  When I said start/stop mechanisms are nice options, I had in= mind they are useful, even indispensable, alternatives for certain sorts o= f structuring, as your example shows -- at the time of writing, I focused o= n XML.  I could equally say \section is a nice option.  Still, if I want to write a paper that consis= ts of a sequence of sections, it's easier to just use \section, and an XML = translator could be written to mark it up accordingly.

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