From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/66886 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Florian Wobbe Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:29 +0100 Message-ID: <1B7D7EDC-2721-4DBF-9682-34E57A19FF26@awi.de> References: <874o7bvy5r.fsf@boreebo.bornier.net> <25576DBA-7D75-4B8F-8934-35CC9DBECA05@uni-bonn.de> <87ei6cvlfr.fsf@boreebo.bornier.net> <430B533D-33EE-4697-94E0-04DB7744060A@awi.de> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1299932532 4087 80.91.229.12 (12 Mar 2011 12:22:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 12:22:12 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sat Mar 12 13:21:56 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PyNpO-0003sG-2Q for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F59ACAAEB; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:49 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Xz3fVGsGGUs3; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:46 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE43CCAAE0; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:46 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6110CAAE0 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:44 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id qJ8pG91ZwuKF for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:42 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter4-til.mf.surf.net (filter4-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.220]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE83CAADF for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:42 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mails3.awi.de (mails3.awi.de [134.1.2.14]) by filter4-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p2CCLf4o019680 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mails3.awi.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F63115A1E for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:40 +0100 (MET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at awi.de Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mails3.awi.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10025) with ESMTP id kQYGPUb+vstV for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:31 +0100 (MET) Original-Received: from msg.awi.de (msg.awi.de [134.1.3.16]) by mails3.awi.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EE8115A16 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:31 +0100 (MET) Original-Received: from [192.168.22.100] ([unknown] [91.61.60.154]) by msg.awi.de (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u3-12.01 64bit (built Oct 15 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0LHY0043B2BUKY60@msg.awi.de> for ntg-context@ntg.nl; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:21:31 +0100 (MET) In-reply-to: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=134.1.2.14; country=DE; region=03; city=Bremerhaven; latitude=53.5500; longitude=8.5833; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.5500,8.5833&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 05EiclFB8 - e5dfb95ae361 - 20110312 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 194.171.167.216 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:66886 Archived-At: Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out: 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii? 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals? 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers? 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for search engine requests? 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users? Especially answers from new users to the first three points would be helpful to answer the fifth point I guess. >> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii related information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to make it easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections, independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline? > Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be able to make everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a new user on the list who asks about "installing mkiv" and doesn't realize that it is not really something which you have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those users because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly identical, so that would be an arguments against a too stric separation. I understand the problem. Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should be renamed to "installing/using context". Maybe it would help to include a little box "important things to know" on the installation page and explain shortly that for historical reasons mkii and mkiv are distributed together and that the former is regarded deprecated. Maybe link to a new page: Differences between miiv/mkii and how both are invoked (context vs. texexec). Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead. > But of course you're also right that it's frustrating for users if they can't find relevant information for the areas where the two differ. As long as mkiv hasn't settled, this is not easy... In deed. I guess this has most relevance for people new to context, especially those who know latex already and are used to find help easily. >> We should add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki (Bibliography MKIV page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv). > > You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on bibliographies right now (he promised to finish something which I need for a project in March, so that leaves him another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a bit. OK, fine. I'm curious what new feature this will bring to us! > criterium=cite should work as well, but doesn't right now. > >> In the beginning it was not clear to me, that http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the MKII implementation of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest to rename Bibliography to Bibliography_mkii and create an alias Bibliography that redirects to Bibliography_mkiv instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that the page is related to mkii/mkiv only and link to the other page. Do you think this is reasonable? > > I had begun rewriting the page. There is now http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliographies which links to the other pages, and which is linked to on the front page. But another context-related project kept me away from this and I never finished this, so fell free to shuffle and rewrite things! I see. I was not aware of this page. I usually find information on the wiki by searching for: "site:wiki.contextgarden.net placepublications". So if there are actually disambiguation pages for mkiv/mkii it makes sense to include mkiv/mkii on both pages (not just one). >> I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle files and add space for sharing reference styles of different journals. What do you think? > > Again, that's a very good idea, but we should maybe wait just a bit till the dust settles a bit. All right. Best, Florian ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________