Partly OT: some luatex questions

Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Ulrike Fischer]

I'm currently trying if I can use luatex on my miktex installation and
together with LaTeX. 

I have downloaded the executable (Version snapshot-0.29.0-2008071816)
from the context-minimals and made a simple texmf.cnf and build some
formats (the formats don't contain something luatex specific, they
simply load latex.ltx). Things works quite fine, my (pdf)lualatex is
running and is finding all the ressources (fonts, styles etc) from my
miktex-trees. 

But I have some problems I don't know how to solve.

1. In the following document there is no space between the a and the y:

\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\noindent a\\y 

\bigskip  

a\par y
\end{document}

It looks as if the lines have only the depth from their content. 

2. I found here some code to use truetype and opentype fonts:
http://luatex.bluwiki.com/go/Use_a_TrueType_font

But while testing the code I run in two two problems:
a) I tested it with a latin modern font and arial and with both fonts
all lines of a text are printed one above the other. It looks as if none
of the lines have a height and a depth. 

b) I also tried MnSymbol5.otf and there I get an error "invalid
character". (I tried to get an "A"). With xetex the font works fine. 

I would be quite grateful if someone could tell me how to solve this
problems. 

-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Arthur Reutenauer]

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	Hello Ulrike,

> 1. In the following document there is no space between the a and the y:
> 
> \documentclass{article}
> \begin{document}
> \noindent a\\y 
> 
> \bigskip  
> 
> a\par y
> \end{document}
> 
> It looks as if the lines have only the depth from their content. 

  I don't seem to see that (see attachment).  How did you generate the
format?  I used “luatex -ini pdflualatex.ini” where pdflualatex.ini
contains

	\pdfoutput1
	\input latex.ltx

> 2. I found here some code to use truetype and opentype fonts:
> http://luatex.bluwiki.com/go/Use_a_TrueType_font

  Oh, that ;-)  You really have to realize that these lines of code are
nothing more than an experiment I wrote one and a half year ago, and you
should be prepared to extend it if you want complete TrueType support
(not to mention OpenType features, which are absent altogether).  That
said, the problems should not be as bad as the ones you report below:

> a) I tested it with a latin modern font and arial and with both fonts
> all lines of a text are printed one above the other.
> of the lines have a height and a depth. 

  That's not what happens to me, you should really send a precise example.

> b) I also tried MnSymbol5.otf and there I get an error "invalid
> character". (I tried to get an "A"). With xetex the font works fine. 

  I can't confirm that.  I get the A all right (see attachment).  Again,
please send the precise example that fails.

	Arthur

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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Ulrike Fischer]

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Am Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:07:43 +0200 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer:

> 	Hello Ulrike,
> 
>> 1. In the following document there is no space between the a and the y:
>> 
>> \documentclass{article}
>> \begin{document}
>> \noindent a\\y 
>> 
>> \bigskip  
>> 
>> a\par y
>> \end{document}
>> 
>> It looks as if the lines have only the depth from their content. 
> 
>   I don't seem to see that (see attachment).  How did you generate the
> format?  I used “luatex -ini pdflualatex.ini” where pdflualatex.ini
> contains
> 
> 	\pdfoutput1
> 	\input latex.ltx

I tried it with a format generated by simply inputting latex.ltx (and
then \pdfoutput=1 in the document), with one which loads also
pdftexconfig.tex, and with a plain one:
% Thomas Esser, 1998. public domain.
% hyphenation tables are now set up in language.dat
\input pdftexconfig.tex
\input plain
\dump
\endinput

In all cases (also if I try dvi-output) the lines glue together. The
attachment text-lua is the pdf of the latex try. 


>> 2. I found here some code to use truetype and opentype fonts:
>> http://luatex.bluwiki.com/go/Use_a_TrueType_font
> 
>   Oh, that ;-)  You really have to realize that these lines of code are
> nothing more than an experiment I wrote one and a half year ago, and you
> should be prepared to extend it if you want complete TrueType support
> (not to mention OpenType features, which are absent altogether).  

Yes I realized that ;-). Currently I'm trying simple code to understand
the principles so that I can later steal the right things from the
context files. 

> That said, the problems should not be as bad as the ones you report
> below:
> 
>> a) I tested it with a latin modern font and arial and with both fonts
>> all lines of a text are printed one above the other.
>> of the lines have a height and a depth. 
> 
>   That's not what happens to me, you should really send a precise example.

See test-lua2.tex + pdf

> 
>> b) I also tried MnSymbol5.otf and there I get an error "invalid
>> character". (I tried to get an "A"). With xetex the font works fine. 
> 
>   I can't confirm that.  I get the A all right (see attachment).  Again,
> please send the precise example that fails.

The MnSymbol-Bold5 you used works fine for me too. MnSymbol5 is the font
doesn't work (the code is  -- commented -- in test-lua2):

<c:/PROGRAMME/MIKTEX2.7/fonts/opentype/public/mnsymbol/MnSymbol5.otf
!luaTeX error (file
c:/PROGRAMME/MIKTEX2.7/fonts/opentype/public/mnsymbol/MnSym
bol5.otf): Invalid character.
 ==> Fatal error occurred, no output PDF file produced!


-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Wolfgang Schuster]

2008/8/14 Ulrike Fischer <news2@nililand.de>:
> Am Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:07:43 +0200 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer:
>
>>       Hello Ulrike,
>>
>>> 1. In the following document there is no space between the a and the y:
>>>
>>> \documentclass{article}
>>> \begin{document}
>>> \noindent a\\y
>>>
>>> \bigskip
>>>
>>> a\par y
>>> \end{document}
>>>
>>> It looks as if the lines have only the depth from their content.
>>
>>   I don't seem to see that (see attachment).  How did you generate the
>> format?  I used "luatex -ini pdflualatex.ini" where pdflualatex.ini
>> contains
>>
>>       \pdfoutput1
>>       \input latex.ltx
>
> I tried it with a format generated by simply inputting latex.ltx (and
> then \pdfoutput=1 in the document), with one which loads also
> pdftexconfig.tex, and with a plain one:
> % Thomas Esser, 1998. public domain.
> % hyphenation tables are now set up in language.dat
> \input pdftexconfig.tex
> \input plain
> \dump
> \endinput
>
> In all cases (also if I try dvi-output) the lines glue together. The
> attachment text-lua is the pdf of the latex try.
>
>
>>> 2. I found here some code to use truetype and opentype fonts:
>>> http://luatex.bluwiki.com/go/Use_a_TrueType_font
>>
>>   Oh, that ;-)  You really have to realize that these lines of code are
>> nothing more than an experiment I wrote one and a half year ago, and you
>> should be prepared to extend it if you want complete TrueType support
>> (not to mention OpenType features, which are absent altogether).
>
> Yes I realized that ;-). Currently I'm trying simple code to understand
> the principles so that I can later steal the right things from the
> context files.
>
>> That said, the problems should not be as bad as the ones you report
>> below:
>>
>>> a) I tested it with a latin modern font and arial and with both fonts
>>> all lines of a text are printed one above the other.
>>> of the lines have a height and a depth.
>>
>>   That's not what happens to me, you should really send a precise example.
>
> See test-lua2.tex + pdf

This was a bug, you need a newer luaTeX.

http://www.mail-archive.com/dev-luatex@ntg.nl/msg00033.html

>>> b) I also tried MnSymbol5.otf and there I get an error "invalid
>>> character". (I tried to get an "A"). With xetex the font works fine.
>>
>>   I can't confirm that.  I get the A all right (see attachment).  Again,
>> please send the precise example that fails.
>
> The MnSymbol-Bold5 you used works fine for me too. MnSymbol5 is the font
> doesn't work (the code is  -- commented -- in test-lua2):
>
> <c:/PROGRAMME/MIKTEX2.7/fonts/opentype/public/mnsymbol/MnSymbol5.otf
> !luaTeX error (file
> c:/PROGRAMME/MIKTEX2.7/fonts/opentype/public/mnsymbol/MnSym
> bol5.otf): Invalid character.
>  ==> Fatal error occurred, no output PDF file produced!

Wolfgang
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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Hans Hagen]

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

>> In all cases (also if I try dvi-output) the lines glue together. The
>> attachment text-lua is the pdf of the latex try.

you can make a plain format operating in the same 'space' as context with

   luatools --make plain

you then can process files with

   luatools --fmt=plain test

eventually i will make a plain variant (probably a bit more more plain 
than plain) with basic open type support (for other formats you might 
need to add --compile to the make call)

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:58:14 +0200 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:

>>>> a) I tested it with a latin modern font and arial and with both fonts
>>>> all lines of a text are printed one above the other.

>>>
>>>   That's not what happens to me, you should really send a precise example.
>>
>> See test-lua2.tex + pdf
> 
> This was a bug, you need a newer luaTeX.
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/dev-luatex@ntg.nl/msg00033.html

Ah. Fine. Then I will have to wait until a new binary for win is
available. 


-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Wolfgang Schuster]

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Ulrike Fischer <news2@nililand.de> wrote:
> Am Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:58:14 +0200 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
>
>>>>> a) I tested it with a latin modern font and arial and with both fonts
>>>>> all lines of a text are printed one above the other.
>
>>>>
>>>>   That's not what happens to me, you should really send a precise example.
>>>
>>> See test-lua2.tex + pdf
>>
>> This was a bug, you need a newer luaTeX.
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/dev-luatex@ntg.nl/msg00033.html
>
> Ah. Fine. Then I will have to wait until a new binary for win is
> available.

You could use the binary from Akiras site.

You need the dev-version, look at the bottom.

http://www.fsci.fuk.kindai.ac.jp/kakuto/win32-ptex/web2c75-e.html

Wolfgang
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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:44:20 +0200 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:


>> Ah. Fine. Then I will have to wait until a new binary for win is
>> available.
> 
> You could use the binary from Akiras site.
> 
> You need the dev-version, look at the bottom.
> 
> http://www.fsci.fuk.kindai.ac.jp/kakuto/win32-ptex/web2c75-e.html

Perfect. With this version both spacing problems are solved.

-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:11:45 +0200 schrieb Hans Hagen:


>>> In all cases (also if I try dvi-output) the lines glue together. The
>>> attachment text-lua is the pdf of the latex try.
> 
> you can make a plain format operating in the same 'space' as context with
> 
>    luatools --make plain

I tried plain only for testing purposes. My goal is to be able to use
LaTeX. Also I don't have a "context space": As non-Miktex-files I use
currently only the executables luatex, mktexlsr (and kpswhich) and a
texmf.cnf-file. 


> eventually i will make a plain variant (probably a bit more more plain 
> than plain) with basic open type support (for other formats you might 
> need to add --compile to the make call)

If you mean a complete plainTeX-format: I at least don't need it much
;-) 

But what would be really fine were extracts of the context code: E.g. a
bundle of self contained lua-code and tex-code that leds to an extended
\font command (or a \font command with extended syntax similar to xetex)
with opentype/ttf-support. If such a primitive were present it would be
probably quite easy to write the LaTeX support e.g. by adapting
fontspec. Or a bundle which can be used to convert other input encodings
to utf8. Or a bundle of the code which sets catcodes and lccode etc. 

 


-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Perfect. With this version both spacing problems are solved.

  Glad to hear that.  But the problem with MnSymbol is still there,
isn't it?  I can reproduce it using MnSymbol5.otf with my code and
-- what's more worrying -- with ConTeXt itself.  I'm not sure what's at
fault, LuaTeX or the font.

	Arthur
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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Hans Hagen]

Ulrike Fischer wrote:

> But what would be really fine were extracts of the context code: E.g. a
> bundle of self contained lua-code and tex-code that leds to an extended
> \font command (or a \font command with extended syntax similar to xetex)
> with opentype/ttf-support. If such a primitive were present it would be
> probably quite easy to write the LaTeX support e.g. by adapting
> fontspec. Or a bundle which can be used to convert other input encodings
> to utf8. Or a bundle of the code which sets catcodes and lccode etc. 

wel, if there is some kind of plain mode, then using that other macro 
packages is possible too, but it has no high priority; first most of the 
font stuff needs to be in place, then i start working on a more layered 
context setup (so that one can use components for other purposes)

Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:49:54 +0200 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer:

>> Perfect. With this version both spacing problems are solved.
> 
>   Glad to hear that.  But the problem with MnSymbol is still there,
> isn't it? 

Yes.

> I can reproduce it using MnSymbol5.otf with my code and
> -- what's more worrying -- with ConTeXt itself. 

I don't find this very worrying: Bugs which can be reproduced on common
systems can be solved more easily. ;-)


-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: Partly OT: some luatex questions

[Hans Hagen]

Ulrike Fischer wrote:
> Am Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:49:54 +0200 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer:
> 
>>> Perfect. With this version both spacing problems are solved.
>>   Glad to hear that.  But the problem with MnSymbol is still there,
>> isn't it? 
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> I can reproduce it using MnSymbol5.otf with my code and
>> -- what's more worrying -- with ConTeXt itself. 
> 
> I don't find this very worrying: Bugs which can be reproduced on common
> systems can be solved more easily. ;-)

taco and i spent quite some time today in testing lots of fonts, and we 
think that in the latest beta locating by name works ok; however, there 
are so many weird fonts out there that we probably need to spend a week 
figuring out what to do with them .. be tolerant or just reject them; 
currently our tests with many (also very huge) fonts run into problems 
due to memory usage when finalizing the pdf file (we're talking gig's of 
memory here) so that's another issue we will try to address (sometime 
after the context conference)

in any case in mkiv we will have some mechanism where certain fonts are 
rejected from the name database (one can still load them by file: but at 
least they dont get reported then by --list); think of those cm super 
fonts

Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Intraword spacing proof of concept

[Charles P. Schaum]

Hi all,

Quite a while ago I mentioned letter spacing, or the normal absence
thereof, in TeX and friends. True, you could skin this cat by
mathematically scaling the text (font size) by steps to fit the box ---
the code is out there. But that was not the only way, thought I. Some
programs also call this general idea tracking, that is, inserting
positive or negative kerns independent of the \spacingfactor.

Just for grins I nabbed two snippets from, respectively, manmac.tex and
texbook.tex. I then added a bit of my own hackery that was inspired by
DEK's length macro. I realized that a non-counting version of the length
macro was a memory-friendly way to insert a symbol between any two
others in a given sequence. What I wanted to insert was a negative kern.

The negative kern must be small, less than \negthinspace, or else you
start getting weird effects like a practically chiastic ordering of
letters, and certainly a chaotic one. The smallest that one dare go
seems to be -.066667em, the point where the serifs can start running
together. Using -.033333em really does not show any letters running
together, yet it still saves space. I got those figures as suggested by
Knuth's own selections for tightness in the interword spacing.

And yes, you could theoretically space out the letters, like the soul
package that does proper Sperrdruck. One major drawback with my kludge
is the need to use control spaces, else all spaces evaporate. If soul
were ported to ConTeXt, and it seems like the code might allow that,
then a version that "spaces in" and "spaces out" could well be possible.

So here's the proof of concept, for those so interested.

Charles

\starttext
% macros for non-centered displays
\outer\def\begindisplay{\obeylines\startdisplay}
{\obeylines\gdef\startdisplay#1
  {\catcode`\^^M=5$$#1\halign\bgroup\indent##\hfil&&\qquad##\hfil\cr}}
\outer\def\enddisplay{\crcr\egroup$$}

{\catcode`@=11
\gdef\PackText#1{\@TextPack#1\@end}
\gdef\@TextPack#1{\ifx#1\@end \let\next=\relax \else \let\next=
\@TextPack#1\fi \kern-0.066667em\next}}

\PackText{pack}\par
\PackText{packity\ pack\ pack}\thinspace.

\begindisplay \hbadness10000
\hbox spread-.666667em{The badness of this line is 100.}&
  \quad(very tight)\cr
\hbox spread-.666667em{\PackText{The\ badness\ of\ this\ line\ is\
100}\thinspace.}&
  \quad(\PackText{So\ baaaad}\thinspace!)\cr
\hbox spread-.333333em{The badness of this line is 12.}&
  \quad(somewhat tight)\cr
\hbox{The badness of this line is 0.}&
  \quad(perfect)\cr
\hbox spread.5em{The badness of this line is 12.}&
  \quad(somewhat loose)\cr
%\hbox spread 1em{The badness of this line is 100.}&
% \quad(loose)\cr % then "looser"
\hbox spread 1.259921em{The badness of this line is 200.}&
  \quad(loose)\cr
%\hbox spread 1.713em{The badness of this line is 500.}&
% \quad(bad)\cr % then "worse"
\hbox spread 2.155em{The badness of this line is 1000.}&
  \quad(bad)\cr
\hbox spread 3.684em{The badness of this line is 5000.}& % actually
4995!
  \quad(awful)\cr
\enddisplay
\stoptext


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Re: Intraword spacing proof of concept

[Hans Hagen]

Charles P. Schaum wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Quite a while ago I mentioned letter spacing, or the normal absence
> thereof, in TeX and friends. True, you could skin this cat by
> mathematically scaling the text (font size) by steps to fit the box ---
> the code is out there. But that was not the only way, thought I. Some
> programs also call this general idea tracking, that is, inserting
> positive or negative kerns independent of the \spacingfactor.
> 
> Just for grins I nabbed two snippets from, respectively, manmac.tex and
> texbook.tex. I then added a bit of my own hackery that was inspired by
> DEK's length macro. I realized that a non-counting version of the length
> macro was a memory-friendly way to insert a symbol between any two
> others in a given sequence. What I wanted to insert was a negative kern.
> 
> The negative kern must be small, less than \negthinspace, or else you
> start getting weird effects like a practically chiastic ordering of
> letters, and certainly a chaotic one. The smallest that one dare go
> seems to be -.066667em, the point where the serifs can start running
> together. Using -.033333em really does not show any letters running
> together, yet it still saves space. I got those figures as suggested by
> Knuth's own selections for tightness in the interword spacing.
> 
> And yes, you could theoretically space out the letters, like the soul
> package that does proper Sperrdruck. One major drawback with my kludge
> is the need to use control spaces, else all spaces evaporate. If soul
> were ported to ConTeXt, and it seems like the code might allow that,
> then a version that "spaces in" and "spaces out" could well be possible.

in my opinion letterspacing only makes sense in titles, not in the main 
body of text (i consider kerning to be part of the font design)

anyhow, since we have to letterspace titles and such, there is provision 
for it in the core (non advertised low level stuff)

\stretched {The badness of this line is very bad.}

\hbox spread 2cm{\stretched {The badness of this line is very bad.}}

\def\stretchedspaceamount{.25em}
\stretchednormalcase {The badness of this line is very bad.}

\def\stretchedspaceamount{.5em}
\stretchednormalcase {The badness of this line is very bad.}


\def\stretchedspaceamount{-.125em}
\def\stretchedspacefactor{-4}
\stretchednormalcase {The badness of this line is very bad.}

\hbox{The badness of this line is very bad.}

ps. the negative kerning was not supported, but i enabled it in the beta

ps. in mkiv there is another model, one that permits kerning of 
arbitrary text

Hans

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Re: Intraword spacing proof of concept

[Charles P. Schaum]

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 09:49 +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:

> in my opinion letterspacing only makes sense in titles, not in the main 
> body of text (i consider kerning to be part of the font design)
> 
Thanks, Hans!

Actually titles is where I would have used it. ;-) I generally agree
with you there. Another place to slightly pack text is in ad copy, where
perhaps your marketer got some text that must go in because corporate
wants it, and the design calls for a space that is a touch too small,
and deadlines are looming, and, and...

Usually, however, messing with letter spacing decreases the aesthetics.
Fonts are best left alone. But of course, what good is a rule if you
can't break it occasionally?

I had a subtitle that was pretty long, and I got around that by using
thinspaces. It worked quite well. That was a couple months ago and I
know a little more now.

I also wanted to see if some of the exact same code that runs in plain
would run in ConTeXt. I actually have had a fair bit of success using
ConTeXt to take stuff from plain as a drop-in. Certain types of texts
are easier to work with in plain than, for example, LaTeX. For example,
I wanted to import about 30 pages of Questions and Answers in ASCII.
With plain and ConTeXt I had much less fussing than in LaTeX. The same
for some ASCII game FAQ's. My tinkering has even extended to Lollipop,
but all \ turn into `` because I am ignorant and cannot figure out what
the deal with computer modern fonts is in that format.

The point of all this, with the TeXbook, TeX by Topic, and source code
as guides, is to figure out what the deal is in different formats. It
seems that (1) understanding catcodes and the finer points of macro
expansion and modes really unlocks TeX; (2) reading source code for TeX
and various formats is an essential part of getting a handle on things;
and (3) buying the books really does help.

But I'm glad I had 36 comp sci credit hours. Without a few courses on
algorithms and data structures, I'd be lost.

Charles

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AUCTeX issues not necessarily ConTeXt-related

[Charles P. Schaum]

A while ago I mentioned a ``Problems after [n] pages'' issue in AUCTeX
when using ConTeXt with it.

Recently I used LaTeX and, hey presto, I was able to reproduce the same
message. I ran LaTeX, then re-ran it to get the references right. I then
ran it again and got a ``Problems after [0] pages'' message. But there
were no problems. I ran LaTeX again, and this time it formatted 220
pages successfully.

I really don't know the cause of the message, but there may be some kind
of corner case. At least you know that it probably is not ConTeXt that
is the source.

Either way, I can live with the situation as long as my output is
correct.

Charles

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Re: AUCTeX issues not necessarily ConTeXt-related

[Peter Münster]

On Fri, Aug 15 2008, Charles P. Schaum wrote:

> A while ago I mentioned a ``Problems after [n] pages'' issue in AUCTeX
> when using ConTeXt with it.

Hello,

Probably you just need to update AUCTeX. On my system, this issue has gone
away after upgrading to version 11.85.

Cheers, Peter

-- 
http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

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