Re: VTeX and ConTeXt

Re: VTeX and ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 04:10 PM 7/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>It should not be impossible (ot particularly hard) to write drivers for it;
>but with ConTeXt being a system in active development it would be impossible
>(for us) to maintain such drivers for any length of time; the only way here
>if such
>drivers were to be done and maintained by Hans/Pragma (in part, because Hans
>is much more familiar with how ConTeXt drivers should be written).

actually, only one driver is needed, adn i would write it anyway since it's 
not that hard to do (spec-vtx or so); the problem is that i once tried to 
install vtex but quit when it messed up my system fonts; if vtex could 
operate in the texmf tree i could install it in a small separate tree 
(actually i only need the binary and a connection to the texmf tree).

>The additional reason why we currently would not support it is that while
>ConTeXt
>has very few users comparing with Plain or LaTeX, supporting it would in 
>effect
>double the amount of macro support we have to do. [Example: say, such drivers
>are provided. What about our users who use the Function Plot plugin? Should we

hm, many context users use mp so thats no big problem

>be adding a new macro package for use with ConTeXt? Same goes for any other
>GeX-supporting pieces (and there are many now). What about the users
>of our premium fonts? Should we be also adding ConTeXt support styles for
>all of them?
>And the list goes on...]

dunno about the fonts; probably only a matter of a name mapping file; afaik 
vtex fonts work ok, that is, the informal math does.

>Given relatively few ConTeXt users at this time, doing this would be of 
>interest
>to very few people and at the same time would shortchange much larger set
>of our Plain/LaTeX users (because by doing work on supporting ConTeXt we
>would have to do less in other directions).

sure, chicken and egg problem: if there were more people using vtex i would 
be more tempted to look into it -)

>When/if ConTeXt becomes more stable and "mainstream", it would be something
>to consider.

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
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                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
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Re: VTeX and ConTeXt

[Christopher Cardinale]

Here's a message I received from Mike Vulis a while ago:

At 05:26 PM 7/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Is there any way to use the ConTeXt macro package in VTeX? 

At the moment, no. There are no VTeX drivers in Context (these are 
"implementation-specific" parts, like those which deal with hyperreferences
or picture insertions).  Possibly, eventually someone would write them.

>Does VTeX only
>support plain-TeX and LaTeX?

And AmsTeX, and LaTeX 2.09.

At this time supporting Context does not seem to be worthwhile; it has a
very small
user base (<1% of LaTeX) and it is far from clear that it would "take off".
Adding
Context to the supported set would help very few users and impose too much
extra
burden on us (having to worry that the new features -- and, for example, the
forthcoming
8.0 will have a number of them -- are supported in a reasonable way).
Furthermore,
Context is not a stable package -- it changes all the time and gets broken
all too often;
this makes it even more difficult to support.

>
>Thanks,
>Chris Cardinale
>
>
>

---------------------------------------------
Michael Vulis
MicroPress

mailto://support@micropress-inc.com
http://www.micropress-inc.com

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Re: VTeX and ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

At 04:55 AM 7/24/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>user base (<1% of LaTeX) and it is far from clear that it would "take off".

hm, the number of users in still increasing -)

>Context is not a stable package -- it changes all the time and gets broken
>all too often;

hm again; if i would post once a year (as latex) 'new features' undoubtely 
would be more stable, but then users could not use them during that year; 
unstable parts concern tricky things that are complicated to solve in tex 
and need much experimentation and user input; this will not change; most of 
the old stuff is pretty stable (the latex kernel is relatively small, and 
when context would be stripped down to that part, it is stable enough); if 
i look at for instance the pdftex list, i wonder how stability of the more 
advanced latex features is defined anyway, given the frequency of patches 
of hyper code -)

anyhow, if i can find a reason for using it, i will look into a vtex 
driver; as said, it's probably a matter of defining a few spec things 
(rather isolated code)

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: VTeX and ConTeXt

[Martin Kolarík]

> Context is not a stable package -- it changes all the time and gets broken
> all too often;

IMHO it is misleading... ConTeXt (now) is a monolithic package where almost
all code seems to be stable. Changes are done mainly in new or experimental
code (as Hans wrote) and besides, what code is experimental is well
documented. I am using ConTeXt for over a two and half year (yes, real using
is counted for last 3/4 year) and I never had problems with compatibilty.
So, "gets broken all to often" is too strong for me.

> this makes it even more difficult to support.

I have a colleague, who needed to modify some core parts of LaTeX to allow
make some of (compatible) extensions possible. Yes, core is core and nobody
wants to modify it, but he surrendered his effort after year of unsucessfull
negotiations with LaTeX team. The feature was not added, extensions are
unable to be done, and czech users of LaTeX have to do some things very
uncomfortably... And the support of these users?

Support of ConTeXt is immediate, correct and more than sufficient.

I very well know what a commerce product is, so I really respect almost all
arguments of MicroPress. But some of them started to sound too subjective
for me...

I apologize for this a bit off-topic mail,

have a nice day (all :-),

Martin

--------
Martin Kolarik
Moravske Pristroje, a.s., Masarykova 1148, Zlin 76302
tel. +420(603)498498, fax +420(603)490803
web: http://www.mii.cz
--------
e-mail: kolarik@mii.cz
e-mail: kolarik@click.cz
tel. +420(603)535593

Re: VTeX and ConTeXt

[Frans Goddijn]

I agree with Martin Kolarik. If VTeX would include support for ConTeXt and
the users would restrict themselves to the commands and options of the
beginner's set, it will be a very stable package.

When users want to learn more, and need to push their work to (and on) the
cutting edge of the latest options, then they must accept the fact that
because of the prompt modifications and solutions to any upcoming problems,
the entire package needs to be more frequently updated. You can't order a
full menu and at the same time demand that your dinner table remains
cleared.

If you want the simple basic advantages of ConTeXt, no problem, and if you
want to surf way out there with the pros, expect to ride a wave. It's
thrilling and it goes at great speeds, it enables you to do more tricks than
anyone else, and you run the risk of occasionally toppling over with code
and choke on a macro, but your personal lifeguard Hans is always around to
throw you a patch.

Best regards,

Frans

Re: VTeX and ConTeXt

[Idris S Hamid]

On Wednesday 24 July 2002 09:17, Frans Goddijn wrote:
> I agree with Martin Kolarik. If VTeX would include support for ConTeXt and
> the users would restrict themselves to the commands and options of the
> beginner's set, it will be a very stable package.
>
> When users want to learn more, and need to push their work to (and on) the
> cutting edge of the latest options, then they must accept the fact that
> because of the prompt modifications and solutions to any upcoming problems,
> the entire package needs to be more frequently updated. You can't order a
> full menu and at the same time demand that your dinner table remains
> cleared.

This is way too complicated, and will turn into a headache for Hans and 
others. Creating two tiers of ConTeXt user with respect to VTeX is a Very Bad 
Idea IMO. The best thing to do is let VTeX users compile ConTeXt on VTeX and 
see if it's usable or not. Then pressure the VTeX developers to add the 
functionality needed for ConTeXt to compile. Hans and the ConTeXt team should 
definitely NOT get too involved in this distraction (beyond licensing and 
protecting the interests of Pragma). If the VTeX people want to support 
ConTeXt, let them do it on their own time and budget. 

DISCLAIMER:
I purchased/used VTeX a few years back; it produced incorrect dvi files for 
some LaTeX packages and the developers refused to acknowledge or fix the 
problem. With all due respect to Vulis and his many contributions to the TeX 
community, I wasted my money. I don't know how much things have changed but I 
would be very wary of getting entangled with VTeX.

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Dr. Idris S Hamid
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80526