* Old-style figures throughout the document
@ 2005-04-27 11:52 varheit
2005-04-27 12:33 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: varheit @ 2005-04-27 11:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
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Hello,
I am experimenting with old-style figures (or text figures, as they are
also called). Basically, I would like every number in my source document
to be typeset in old-style figures (OSF) by default unless stated
otherwise. This means: I want to reverse the mechanism so that I can
explicitly say where NOT to use OSF.
As a work-around I found the following on the list:
\defineconversion[number][\os]
\defineconversion[numbers][\os]
This does not work for plain digits in the text, but it works for
generated numbers like page numbers, and, to some degree, for the
generated numbers of floats.
\starttext
\chapter[sample]{Sample}
\placefigure[here][a]{cap}{test}
Reference: \in{figure}[a]
\section[test]{Test}
\stoptext
In this setup, chapter numbers do not use OSF, and the numbers of
figures (as well as references to them) use a mixed form, which
looks rather odd.
I can add
\setuphead[chapter,section][numberstyle=\os]
which makes heading numbers use OSF, but then again, references like
\in[sample] do not work. Also, the numbering of the section changes
from 1.1 to 1>1 (where > is a right pointing triangle).
To see the results, you can process this:
------------------------ cut here ---------------------
\defineconversion[number][\os]
\defineconversion[numbers][\os]
\setuphead[chapter,section][numberstyle=\os]
\starttext
\chapter[sample]{Sample}
This is chapter \in[sample].
Below is \in{section}[test].
Here is \in{figure}[a] on \at{page}[a]
\placefigure[here][a]{Caption}{FIGURE}
\section[test]{Test}
\stoptext
------------------------ cut here ---------------------
Is there any way, to change the numbering style globally?
Thanks,
Viktor
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Old-style figures throughout the document
2005-04-27 11:52 Old-style figures throughout the document varheit
@ 2005-04-27 12:33 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
2005-04-27 13:33 ` Viktor Varheit
2005-04-27 13:58 ` William F. Adams
0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Eckhart Guthöhrlein @ 2005-04-27 12:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 at 13:52:40+0200, varheit@gmx.de wrote:
> Is there any way, to change the numbering style globally?
We just had a discussion about this. Maybe
http://archive.contextgarden.net/thread/20050413.132347.43f37eb6.html
will be of help.
Greetings,
--
Eckhart
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Old-style figures throughout the document
2005-04-27 12:33 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
@ 2005-04-27 13:33 ` Viktor Varheit
2005-04-27 22:12 ` Adam Lindsay
2005-04-28 7:52 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
2005-04-27 13:58 ` William F. Adams
1 sibling, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Viktor Varheit @ 2005-04-27 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
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> We just had a discussion about this. Maybe
> http://archive.contextgarden.net/thread/20050413.132347.43f37eb6.html
> will be of help.
Thanks, Eckhart. Shame on me, I did not find this thread. I've just
tried the example but it does not work here. I still get ordinary
numbers.
I am using teTeX 3.0, and my ConText is:
ConTeXt ver: 2005.01.31 fmt: 2005.4.27 int: english mes: english
Maybe I have to set up anything else?
Viktor
--------------------------------------------------------------------
\usetypescript[adobekb][\defaultencoding]
\usetypescript [modern][\defaultencoding]
\usetypescript [map] [latin-modern-os] [\defaultencoding]
\setupbodyfont[modern]
\starttext
test 1234 test
\stoptext
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Old-style figures throughout the document
2005-04-27 12:33 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
2005-04-27 13:33 ` Viktor Varheit
@ 2005-04-27 13:58 ` William F. Adams
1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: William F. Adams @ 2005-04-27 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
Idris asked me about this during the previous thread, before I'd joined
this list.
Here's a slightly edited version of my reply about osf in documents
with math:
Well, I did the second-pass macros, and most of the math markup /
editing of a recent translation of Thomas Harriot's _Artis Analyticae
Praxis_ from 1631 or so, and it (of course) uses old style figures
exclusively, pre-dating them, as would any mathematics (or other) text
before the latter part of the 19th century.
Old-style figures are named thusly since the now standard alternative
lining figures are a fairly recent invention --- a Victorian (some
would say debased) convention born out of expedience and a desire for
better looking tabular material --- many railed against them, Charles
Babbage being a notable example of the opposition to them (noting that
in tables of logarithms, when used in difficult circumstances (I
believe the example was an artillery officer doing ballistic
calculations) absolute unambiguous representation could be a matter of
life and death and that the extra differentiation provided by ascenders
and descenders in numbers was highly desirable --- can't recall if Dr.
Asaf Degani revisited this with his NASA reports on typography or no
--- if not, he should've).
Bringhurst's prescription (in his _Elements of Typographic Style) is
perhaps a bit simplistic and doesn't acknowledge the typographical
palette which has since become readily available in newer fonts
(Hoefler Text in Mac OS X for example affords one proportional lining
figures, monospaced lining figures, proportional old-style figures and
lining old-style figures --- a text typeface I've been working on goes
this even better, adding three-quarter height proportional and
monospaced figures, and French versions of the old-style figure
versions as well).
Bringhurst's rule 3.2.3 would seem a better arbiter, ``Refer
typographical disputes to the higher courts of speech and thinking.''.
Knuth, in ``Typesetting Concrete Mathematics'' (_Digital Typography_,
pg. 369) has a cogent observation when he writes, ``This experience
proved to be worthwhile because it taught me that there is a useful and
meaningful distinction between text numerals and mathematical
numbers.''
There's been some discussion of old-style figures for mathematics on
comp.text.tex, but I don't think any absolute statement could
reasonably be made. It's certainly valid that using lining figures for
mathematics does provide a useful distinction (and it also greatly
eases typographic issues such as the placement of super and
sub-scripts), but the counter-argument that mathematics is a valid
textual discussion form is certainly appropriate as well.
Arguably this would be a good place to use Bruce Roger's ``allusive
typography'' principle. Anything set in a design more recent than
Baskerville should use of lining figures in the absence of a reason
not, while older texts could consider the use of old-style figures if
concerns such as super and sub script placement can be worked out. But
perhaps even that's too simplistic and formulaic.
A far more productive thing probably would be to look at actual sample
pages to consider things in context (sorry, couldn't resist the pun).
Anyway, I hope this helps somewhat and is of use in your consideration.
William
--
William Adams, publishing specialist
voice - 717-731-6707 | Fax - 717-731-6708
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Old-style figures throughout the document
2005-04-27 13:33 ` Viktor Varheit
@ 2005-04-27 22:12 ` Adam Lindsay
2005-04-28 7:52 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Adam Lindsay @ 2005-04-27 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
Viktor Varheit said this at Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:33:12 +0200:
>ConTeXt ver: 2005.01.31 fmt: 2005.4.27 int: english mes: english
>
>Maybe I have to set up anything else?
I'm not entirely certain the magic mapfile is in the main release. (Can't
check--on the road currently.)
>\usetypescript[adobekb][\defaultencoding]
This is an unnecessary line.
>\usetypescript [modern][\defaultencoding]
>\usetypescript [map] [latin-modern-os] [\defaultencoding]
>\setupbodyfont[modern]
Okay, this should (once you get it to work with the LM fonts) work, but
only partially to your requirements--the mapfile magic re-encodes all
fonts so all numerals are text figures. In order to get lining figures on
command in every context, it'll take a bunch more typescripts (and a few
fontvariants defined).
For something a little more tractable, we can have a (not very robust)
hack that switches to math mode (and therefore CM, not LM) when you want
the occasional lining figure. I'll leave auto detection of bold vs normal
weight as an exercise for the reader:
\usetypescript [modern][\defaultencoding]
\usetypescript [map] [latin-modern-os] [\defaultencoding]
\definetypeface[boldmath][mm][boldmath][computer-modern]
[computer-modern][encoding=default]
\setupbodyfont[modern]
\def\Lining{\formula}
\def\BoldLining{\formula[boldmath]}
\starttext
test 1234 test
\ss test 1234 test
\rm test \Lining{1234} test
\bf test \BoldLining{1234} test
\stoptext
And this is all pretty much specific to Latin Modern at the moment.
You're looking at fontvariants, most likely, if you want it with your own
fonts. (Recommendation (and PracTeX Journal plug:) this is done fairly
easily with rich OpenType fonts.)
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept. atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
Lancaster University, InfoLab21 +44(0)1524/510.514
Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Old-style figures throughout the document
2005-04-27 13:33 ` Viktor Varheit
2005-04-27 22:12 ` Adam Lindsay
@ 2005-04-28 7:52 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
2005-04-28 12:35 ` Adam Lindsay
1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Eckhart Guthöhrlein @ 2005-04-28 7:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 at 15:33:12+0200, Viktor Varheit wrote:
> Thanks, Eckhart. Shame on me, I did not find this thread. I've just
> tried the example but it does not work here. I still get ordinary
> numbers.
>
> I am using teTeX 3.0, and my ConText is:
> ConTeXt ver: 2005.01.31 fmt: 2005.4.27 int: english mes: english
>
> Maybe I have to set up anything else?
>
> Viktor
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> \usetypescript[adobekb][\defaultencoding]
> \usetypescript [modern][\defaultencoding]
> \usetypescript [map] [latin-modern-os] [\defaultencoding]
> \setupbodyfont[modern]
>
> \starttext
>
> test 1234 test
>
> \stoptext
Works here. I have
pdfeTeX, Version 3.14159-1.10a-RC3-2.1 (Web2C 7.4.3)
ConTeXt ver: 2005.04.19 fmt: 2005.4.27 int: english mes: english
I am no font expert, so I don't really know what additional setups can
be done for this, sorry.
--
Eckhart
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Old-style figures throughout the document
2005-04-28 7:52 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
@ 2005-04-28 12:35 ` Adam Lindsay
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Adam Lindsay @ 2005-04-28 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
Eckhart Guthöhrlein said this at Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:52:50 +0200:
>Works here. I have
>
>pdfeTeX, Version 3.14159-1.10a-RC3-2.1 (Web2C 7.4.3)
>ConTeXt ver: 2005.04.19 fmt: 2005.4.27 int: english mes: english
Right. I checked the latest main branch release (2005.02.03) from the
website, and it's missing the magic map file that Idris originally cited.
So the solution to Viktor is to update to the beta or wait for a main release.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept. atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
Lancaster University, InfoLab21 +44(0)1524/510.514
Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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2005-04-27 11:52 Old-style figures throughout the document varheit
2005-04-27 12:33 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
2005-04-27 13:33 ` Viktor Varheit
2005-04-27 22:12 ` Adam Lindsay
2005-04-28 7:52 ` Eckhart Guthöhrlein
2005-04-28 12:35 ` Adam Lindsay
2005-04-27 13:58 ` William F. Adams
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