* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 2:17 ` Arthur Reutenauer
@ 2008-01-28 16:15 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-28 17:07 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2008-01-28 16:26 ` Wolfgang Schuster
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-28 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> Thanks for this comprehensive review. If I'm not mistaken, there is
> no specific code for CJKV typesetting in Mark IV; the examples in mk.pdf
> seem to use the generic font loading mechanism.
>
> I would like to answer more completely, but don't have much time for
> the moment. About some of your remarks:
actually, there is code in there but you need to specify chinese as feature
\definefontfeature
[chinese-traditional]
[mode=node,script=hang,lang=zht]
\definefontfeature
[chinese-simple]
[mode=node,script=hang,lang=zhs]
>> so I think a new feature should be added to map all the Chinese puncts
>> into english while at the same time, a space should be added after the
>> English punct marks.
> Would it not be better to automatically add shrinkable glue after
> Chinese punctuation, rather than replacing the character by force? This
> would be very much in line with the general TeX philosophy of setting
> text (and would probably suppress the need for half-width forms in the
> font altogether).
there are penalties and glus nodes injected (based on specs given by
some users)
>> - pp118, penultimate example, box 2, line1, the ' punct mark should
>> not appear at the end of the line
probably an old mk.pdf (i'm awating some feedback before i post a new one)
> This should be taken care of by adding an appropriate penalty before
> the character.
adding penalties is done based on a couple of tables
>> - pp118, ultimate example, box 2, line2, in fact, if you want do
>> perfect Chinese typesetting, all the puncts which begin a line or end
>> a line should be closed to the margin line
>
> Do you mean simply closer to the margin, or in the margin itself
> (protruding)? Protruding is already possible in pdfTeX; I believe it is
> available in LuaTeX as well, although it might be broken for the moment
> (Taco?). Setting the character closer to the margin should be possible
> as well, as a modified form of protruding, I trust.
thisis always a bit of a trade off; i use samples with small width so at
some point you run into tex optimizing situations; i'll make things
configurable
>> A small skip should be left between Chinese and English which makes
>> the result much better. usually the space is a quarter of a chinese
>> character width. A TeX expression should like:
>> \hspace{0.25em plus 0.125em minus 0.08em}
>
> Again, this can be taken care of by automatically adding this glue
> between pairs of character of the appropriate category.
>
>> The last important thing for English and Chinese bi-lingual
>> typesetting is that: do not use English glyphs in Chinese fonts
>
> Sure, there should be a possibility of specifying a Western font to be
> used inside Chinese text.
font swichting; i still have to look into mixed fonts
>> - the following script produce an error: Invalid field id penalty for
>> node type glyph (1).
>
> I don't have that error here. This is very big font; are you sure it
> has been read entirely and correctly written to the cache? Lua crashed
> on my machine when I first compiled your example, and only a partial
> font hash was written to the cache (ConTeXt didn't crash, so the first
> compilation apparently ended well, but the cache was already filled with
> a partial font). I can imagine that problems will arise in the presence
> of a partially hashed font in the cache.
>
> Anyway, the code looks quite weird to me:
>
>> \definefontfeature[chinese][mode=node,script=hang,lang=zht,script=hani,lang=dlft]
>
> This means that you activate two different scripts at the same time
> (hang == Hangul and hani == Han ideographs), and also two languages at
> the same time (zht == Chinese Traditional and dlft is probably a typo
> for dflt == default). I can't imagine what that is supposed to mean,
> and activating Traditional Chinese is probably wrong with Adobe Song Std
> which is a Simplified Chinese font. A saner definition of that feature
> would be in my opinion:
indeed this disables chinese ...
> \definefontfeature[chinese-traditional][mode=node,script=hani,lang=zhs]
>
> I know this code comes from mk.pdf, but I think it is a mistake.
>
> Finally, there is an interesting article by Jin-Hwan Cho (the dvipdfmx
> author) and Haruhiko Okumura about CJKV typesetting with Omega a couple
> of years ago. They have implemented all of the rules you mention above
> and a bit more; and although they used OTPs at the time, it should be
> quite straighforward to transpose it in Lua code (actually, I've done it
> a couple of months ago, but I have used plain LuaTeX, and in ConTeXt it
> should probably done using node processors or something).
indeed
> http://project.ktug.or.kr/omega-cjk/tug2004-preprint.pdf
i'll have a look
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 2:17 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2008-01-28 16:15 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-01-28 16:26 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2008-01-28 23:19 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2008-01-28 16:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-01-28 17:05 ` Yue Wang
3 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2008-01-28 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jan 28, 2008 3:17 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thanks for this comprehensive review. If I'm not mistaken, there is
> no specific code for CJKV typesetting in Mark IV; the examples in mk.pdf
> seem to use the generic font loading mechanism.
This is wrong, fon-otf contains a few lua macros about linebreaking
and char-def has information about the character width (full width,
half width ...)
and other information like opening punctuation, parenthesis but none
of them is finished.
> I would like to answer more completely, but don't have much time for
> the moment. About some of your remarks:
>
> > so I think a new feature should be added to map all the Chinese puncts
> > into english while at the same time, a space should be added after the
> > English punct marks.
>
> Would it not be better to automatically add shrinkable glue after
> Chinese punctuation, rather than replacing the character by force? This
> would be very much in line with the general TeX philosophy of setting
> text (and would probably suppress the need for half-width forms in the
> font altogether).
>
> > - pp118, penultimate example, box 2, line1, the ' punct mark should
> > not appear at the end of the line
>
> This should be taken care of by adding an appropriate penalty before
> the character.
>
> > - pp118, ultimate example, box 2, line2, in fact, if you want do
> > perfect Chinese typesetting, all the puncts which begin a line or end
> > a line should be closed to the margin line
>
> Do you mean simply closer to the margin, or in the margin itself
> (protruding)? Protruding is already possible in pdfTeX; I believe it is
> available in LuaTeX as well, although it might be broken for the moment
> (Taco?). Setting the character closer to the margin should be possible
> as well, as a modified form of protruding, I trust.
>
> > A small skip should be left between Chinese and English which makes
> > the result much better. usually the space is a quarter of a chinese
> > character width. A TeX expression should like:
> > \hspace{0.25em plus 0.125em minus 0.08em}
>
> Again, this can be taken care of by automatically adding this glue
> between pairs of character of the appropriate category.
>
> > The last important thing for English and Chinese bi-lingual
> > typesetting is that: do not use English glyphs in Chinese fonts
>
> Sure, there should be a possibility of specifying a Western font to be
> used inside Chinese text.
Could be done with cirtual fonts but we need a interface.
> > - the following script produce an error: Invalid field id penalty for
> > node type glyph (1).
>
> I don't have that error here. This is very big font; are you sure it
> has been read entirely and correctly written to the cache? Lua crashed
> on my machine when I first compiled your example, and only a partial
> font hash was written to the cache (ConTeXt didn't crash, so the first
> compilation apparently ended well, but the cache was already filled with
> a partial font). I can imagine that problems will arise in the presence
> of a partially hashed font in the cache.
>
> Anyway, the code looks quite weird to me:
>
> > \definefontfeature[chinese][mode=node,script=hang,lang=zht,script=hani,lang=dlft]
>
> This means that you activate two different scripts at the same time
> (hang == Hangul and hani == Han ideographs), and also two languages at
> the same time (zht == Chinese Traditional and dlft is probably a typo
> for dflt == default). I can't imagine what that is supposed to mean,
> and activating Traditional Chinese is probably wrong with Adobe Song Std
> which is a Simplified Chinese font. A saner definition of that feature
> would be in my opinion:
>
> \definefontfeature[chinese-traditional][mode=node,script=hani,lang=zhs]
You need the hang script, it takes care about the linebreak.
> I know this code comes from mk.pdf, but I think it is a mistake.
>
> Finally, there is an interesting article by Jin-Hwan Cho (the dvipdfmx
> author) and Haruhiko Okumura about CJKV typesetting with Omega a couple
> of years ago. They have implemented all of the rules you mention above
> and a bit more; and although they used OTPs at the time, it should be
> quite straighforward to transpose it in Lua code (actually, I've done it
> a couple of months ago, but I have used plain LuaTeX, and in ConTeXt it
> should probably done using node processors or something).
>
> http://project.ktug.or.kr/omega-cjk/tug2004-preprint.pdf
This this currently done in font-otf.lua.
Greetings,
Wolfgang
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 16:26 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2008-01-28 23:19 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2008-01-28 23:22 ` Hans Hagen
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2008-01-28 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
> This is wrong, fon-otf contains a few lua macros about linebreaking
> and char-def has information about the character width (full width,
> half width ...)
> and other information like opening punctuation, parenthesis but none
> of them is finished.
OK, I thought line breaking would be managed in node-*, so I didn't
look in font-otf for it.
>> Sure, there should be a possibility of specifying a Western font to be
>> used inside Chinese text.
>
> Could be done with cirtual fonts but we need a interface.
Sure, no need to rush things.
> You need the hang script, it takes care about the linebreak.
What do you mean? How does it take care about the linebreak? And how
can it be relevant for Chinese characters? Default Chinese fonts from
Adobe like AdobeSongStd don't have a "hang" script at all anyway. Do
you know fonts that have?
Arthur
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 23:19 ` Arthur Reutenauer
@ 2008-01-28 23:22 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-28 23:25 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-29 11:25 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-28 23:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
>> You need the hang script, it takes care about the linebreak.
>
> What do you mean? How does it take care about the linebreak? And how
> can it be relevant for Chinese characters? Default Chinese fonts from
> Adobe like AdobeSongStd don't have a "hang" script at all anyway. Do
> you know fonts that have?
hey, i just gambled ... it's you who have to tell me what script/lang
combinations to use; i just needed a value to kickstart the analyser and
nobody bothered to correct me
(same for arab, i just picked some)
you don't seriousy think that i can read chinese eh?
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 23:19 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2008-01-28 23:22 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-01-28 23:25 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-29 11:25 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-28 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> Adobe like AdobeSongStd don't have a "hang" script at all anyway. Do
> you know fonts that have?
btw, the same is true for japanese and korean ... i like these glyphs
and playing with them but i need input from users on how to organize
things, i.e. script/lang combinations and rules for treating them so
that i can write the analyzers
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 23:19 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2008-01-28 23:22 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-28 23:25 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-01-29 11:25 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2008-01-29 11:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Jan 29, 2008 12:19 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
> > This is wrong, fon-otf contains a few lua macros about linebreaking
> > and char-def has information about the character width (full width,
> > half width ...)
> > and other information like opening punctuation, parenthesis but none
> > of them is finished.
>
> OK, I thought line breaking would be managed in node-*, so I didn't
> look in font-otf for it.
>
> >> Sure, there should be a possibility of specifying a Western font to be
> >> used inside Chinese text.
> >
> > Could be done with cirtual fonts but we need a interface.
>
> Sure, no need to rush things.
>
> > You need the hang script, it takes care about the linebreak.
>
> What do you mean? How does it take care about the linebreak? And how
> can it be relevant for Chinese characters? Default Chinese fonts from
> Adobe like AdobeSongStd don't have a "hang" script at all anyway. Do
> you know fonts that have?
You need the hang script in \definefontfeature to enable ConTeXt linebreak
for CJK, don't ask me why I you have to use it as value for script.
Wolfgang
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 2:17 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2008-01-28 16:15 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-28 16:26 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2008-01-28 16:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-01-28 20:17 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-28 17:05 ` Yue Wang
3 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2008-01-28 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
>
> Do you mean simply closer to the margin, or in the margin itself
> (protruding)? Protruding is already possible in pdfTeX; I believe it is
> available in LuaTeX as well, although it might be broken for the moment
> (Taco?).
Protrusion should be available in luatex as well, but it may be
incompatible with the mkiv code.
Best wishes,
Taco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 16:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2008-01-28 20:17 ` Hans Hagen
2008-01-28 20:24 ` Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-28 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
>> Do you mean simply closer to the margin, or in the margin itself
>> (protruding)? Protruding is already possible in pdfTeX; I believe it is
>> available in LuaTeX as well, although it might be broken for the moment
>> (Taco?).
>
> Protrusion should be available in luatex as well, but it may be
> incompatible with the mkiv code.
i'm not going to waste time on protruding in mkiv, later this year we
will have proper font related protruding and hz tables and then i will
pick up that thread
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: MKIV Chinese typesetting
2008-01-28 2:17 ` Arthur Reutenauer
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2008-01-28 16:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2008-01-28 17:05 ` Yue Wang
3 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Yue Wang @ 2008-01-28 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
Thank you very much for your mail!
On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thanks for this comprehensive review. If I'm not mistaken, there is
> no specific code for CJKV typesetting in Mark IV; the examples in mk.pdf
> seem to use the generic font loading mechanism.
>
yes, there are. see the last part of font-otf.lua
> I would like to answer more completely, but don't have much time for
> the moment. About some of your remarks:
>
>
Thank you for your time and effort:)
> > so I think a new feature should be added to map all the Chinese puncts
> > into english while at the same time, a space should be added after the
> > English punct marks.
>
> Would it not be better to automatically add shrinkable glue after
> Chinese punctuation, rather than replacing the character by force? This
> would be very much in line with the general TeX philosophy of setting
> text (and would probably suppress the need for half-width forms in the
> font altogether).
>
Sorry I am making a mistake here, forgive me.
According to the rules made by Chinese official, Chinese puncts should
not map to English one, sorry about that.
but there are two kinds of full stop in Chinese, one is a circle,
another is a dot, usually we should map the circle full stop to dot
stop in Chinese scientific typesetting.
>
> > - pp118, penultimate example, box 2, line1, the ' punct mark should
> > not appear at the end of the line
>
> This should be taken care of by adding an appropriate penalty before
> the character.
You are right:) There must be some problems in the penalty settings in
font-otf.lua but I need some time to trace where. I think we should do
something after the three elseif: line4563 , 4579 and 4588.
>
>
> > - pp118, ultimate example, box 2, line2, in fact, if you want do
> > perfect Chinese typesetting, all the puncts which begin a line or end
> > a line should be closed to the margin line
>
> Do you mean simply closer to the margin, or in the margin itself
> (protruding)? Protruding is already possible in pdfTeX; I believe it is
> available in LuaTeX as well, although it might be broken for the moment
> (Taco?). Setting the character closer to the margin should be possible
> as well, as a modified form of protruding, I trust.
closer to the margin, not in the margin.
It is possible, but we don't know how much width we should adjust
because the puncts in different font have different position. Of
course, we can adjust the space according to most of the fonts.
>
>
> > A small skip should be left between Chinese and English which makes
> > the result much better. usually the space is a quarter of a chinese
> > character width. A TeX expression should like:
> > \hspace{0.25em plus 0.125em minus 0.08em}
>
> Again, this can be taken care of by automatically adding this glue
> between pairs of character of the appropriate category.
>
Yes, and I think they should be added into font-otf.lua as well.
>
> > The last important thing for English and Chinese bi-lingual
> > typesetting is that: do not use English glyphs in Chinese fonts
>
> Sure, there should be a possibility of specifying a Western font to be
> used inside Chinese text.
Yes, and I think there should be an option left for the user when they
setup their accompany fonts.
>
>
> > - the following script produce an error: Invalid field id penalty for
> > node type glyph (1).
>
> I don't have that error here. This is very big font; are you sure it
> has been read entirely and correctly written to the cache? Lua crashed
> on my machine when I first compiled your example, and only a partial
> font hash was written to the cache (ConTeXt didn't crash, so the first
> compilation apparently ended well, but the cache was already filled with
> a partial font). I can imagine that problems will arise in the presence
> of a partially hashed font in the cache.
>
I am sure lua parse it correctly (I get the tma and tmc file in the cache).
I am using the 01.16 beta.
> Anyway, the code looks quite weird to me:
>
>
> > \definefontfeature[chinese][mode=node,script=hang,lang=zht,script=hani,lang=dlft]
>
> This means that you activate two different scripts at the same time
> (hang == Hangul and hani == Han ideographs), and also two languages at
> the same time (zht == Chinese Traditional and dlft is probably a typo
> for dflt == default). I can't imagine what that is supposed to mean,
> and activating Traditional Chinese is probably wrong with Adobe Song Std
> which is a Simplified Chinese font. A saner definition of that feature
> would be in my opinion:
>
> \definefontfeature[chinese-traditional][mode=node,script=hani,lang=zhs]
>
> I know this code comes from mk.pdf, but I think it is a mistake.
>
umm... it is a mess.....
what does the the hang mean?
maybe fonts.analyzers.methods.hang and fonts.analyzers. method.hani in
font-otf.lua
line 4505 and 4583 which is used to adjust the penalty between
different CJK categories?
> Finally, there is an interesting article by Jin-Hwan Cho (the dvipdfmx
> author) and Haruhiko Okumura about CJKV typesetting with Omega a couple
> of years ago. They have implemented all of the rules you mention above
> and a bit more; and although they used OTPs at the time, it should be
> quite straighforward to transpose it in Lua code (actually, I've done it
> a couple of months ago, but I have used plain LuaTeX, and in ConTeXt it
> should probably done using node processors or something).
Thank you for the link. In fact, many rules appear in the last part of
font-otf.lua but it is incomplete.
Chinese typesetting is easier than English typesetting because in
Chinese we can break the line at any characters and no hyphenating
algorithms is needed.
The only thing is about the spaces between puncts and the penalty
before and after the puncts.
When English words are introduced, we should also take font switching
and glue between chinese and english words into account.
>
> http://project.ktug.or.kr/omega-cjk/tug2004-preprint.pdf
>
> Arthur
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
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