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* Re: [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support
       [not found]                 ` <20080508111138.GA10962@Penguin>
@ 2008-05-08 15:53                   ` Khaled Hosny
  2008-05-08 18:02                     ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2008-05-08 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: ntg-context, Idris Samawi Hamid, Taco Hoekwater


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(Moved from lautex mailing list, more bellow)

On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 02:11:38PM +0300, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 12:53:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 12:22:16PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 10:10:23AM +0200, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> >>>>> Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I also tried "Nafees Nastaliq" font
> >>>>>>> http://www.crulp.org/software/localization/Fonts/nafeesNastaleeq.html
> >>>>>>> with also broken result.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> See also the arabic chapter (XIII) in mk.pdf:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>  http://pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mk.pdf
> >>>>>>> I was actually testing the fonts under its guidance :)
> >>>>>> Can you two team up on this issue? the problem is that esp the  
> >>>>>> scripting part of OT is not really defined, only has de facto 
> >>>>>> specs i.e. reversed engineered uniscribe.
> >>>>> I had a quick look at the font with fontforge. It could that 
> >>>>> (part of  the) problems are related to the fact that most of the 
> >>>>> glyph encodings
> >>>>> in the font do not follow unicode, even though the font claims to be a
> >>>>> UnicodeBMP encoded font.  It is quite possible that that confuses the
> >>>>> contextual analyser in MkIV.
> >>>> I'm relaying solely on OpenType here, i.e. the actual glyphs aren't
> >>>> encoded and using isol, init, etc features to map characters to the
> >>>> appropriate glyphs.
> >>>>
> >>>> I tested it with two other OpenType implementations, and I got the
> >>>> expected result.
> >>> this mkmk feature ...
> >>>
> >>> (1) is it directionally sensitive? some features are marked as r2l, some not
> >>
> >> No its not, I think r2l is applicable for cursive anchors and should
> >> mean nothing here (I was trying some thing but forget to remove it
> >> after).
> >> I removed r2l marl from all tables (except curs), but this changed  
> >> nothing.
> >>
> >>> (2) do you use proper mark -> basemark? or just mark to mark?
> >
> > keep in mind that when you update your font, you have to remove the  
> > cached version
> 
> I removed the enteries in fonts/otf of the cache dir, is this enough?
> 

Uploaded Pango output of the same string for comparison,
http://khaled.djihed.com/context/
(Note: the dots are marks, not part of the base glyph; the dot is
basemark and the haraka is mark).

Thanks,
 Khaled

>  Khaled
> 
> >
> > Hans
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> >               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> >      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
> >                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> -- 
>  Khaled Hosny
>  Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support
  2008-05-08 15:53                   ` [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support Khaled Hosny
@ 2008-05-08 18:02                     ` Hans Hagen
  2008-05-09 14:42                       ` Khaled Hosny
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-05-08 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Khaled Hosny; +Cc: ntg-context, Idris Samawi Hamid, Taco Hoekwater

Khaled Hosny wrote:
> (Moved from lautex mailing list, more bellow)



char 1614 and 1617 are to be relatively positioned using mkmk, so we 
need a mark and a basemark match an donly anchor-11 qualifies as 
basemark but ...

   {
    ["anchors"]={
     ["basemark"]={["Anchor-11"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=250,},},
     ["mark"]={["Anchor-13"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=-100,},["Anchor-7" 
]={["x"]=0,["y"]=0,},},
    },
    ["name"]="shadda",
    ["unicode"]=1617,
   },

   {
    ["anchors"]={
 
["mark"]={["Anchor-13"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=-100,},["Anchor-7"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=0,},},
    },
    ["name"]="fatha",
    ["unicode"]=1614,
   },

there is no mark reference in 1614 ...

i'm not that fluent in fontforge so i cannot play further


> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 02:11:38PM +0300, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 12:53:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 12:22:16PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 10:10:23AM +0200, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
>>>>>>> Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>>>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also tried "Nafees Nastaliq" font
>>>>>>>>> http://www.crulp.org/software/localization/Fonts/nafeesNastaleeq.html
>>>>>>>>> with also broken result.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> See also the arabic chapter (XIII) in mk.pdf:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  http://pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mk.pdf
>>>>>>>>> I was actually testing the fonts under its guidance :)
>>>>>>>> Can you two team up on this issue? the problem is that esp the  
>>>>>>>> scripting part of OT is not really defined, only has de facto 
>>>>>>>> specs i.e. reversed engineered uniscribe.
>>>>>>> I had a quick look at the font with fontforge. It could that 
>>>>>>> (part of  the) problems are related to the fact that most of the 
>>>>>>> glyph encodings
>>>>>>> in the font do not follow unicode, even though the font claims to be a
>>>>>>> UnicodeBMP encoded font.  It is quite possible that that confuses the
>>>>>>> contextual analyser in MkIV.
>>>>>> I'm relaying solely on OpenType here, i.e. the actual glyphs aren't
>>>>>> encoded and using isol, init, etc features to map characters to the
>>>>>> appropriate glyphs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tested it with two other OpenType implementations, and I got the
>>>>>> expected result.
>>>>> this mkmk feature ...
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) is it directionally sensitive? some features are marked as r2l, some not
>>>> No its not, I think r2l is applicable for cursive anchors and should
>>>> mean nothing here (I was trying some thing but forget to remove it
>>>> after).
>>>> I removed r2l marl from all tables (except curs), but this changed  
>>>> nothing.
>>>>
>>>>> (2) do you use proper mark -> basemark? or just mark to mark?
>>> keep in mind that when you update your font, you have to remove the  
>>> cached version
>> I removed the enteries in fonts/otf of the cache dir, is this enough?
>>
> 
> Uploaded Pango output of the same string for comparison,
> http://khaled.djihed.com/context/
> (Note: the dots are marks, not part of the base glyph; the dot is
> basemark and the haraka is mark).
> 
> Thanks,
>  Khaled
> 
>>  Khaled
>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>>>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>>>      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>>>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> -- 
>>  Khaled Hosny
>>  Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
> 


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support
  2008-05-08 18:02                     ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-05-09 14:42                       ` Khaled Hosny
  2008-05-09 16:34                         ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2008-05-09 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: ntg-context, Idris Samawi Hamid, Taco Hoekwater


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4624 bytes --]

On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 08:02:10PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> (Moved from lautex mailing list, more bellow)
>
>
>
> char 1614 and 1617 are to be relatively positioned using mkmk, so we  
> need a mark and a basemark match an donly anchor-11 qualifies as  
> basemark but ...

Actually, 1617 (shadda) and 1615 (fatha) will form a shadda-fatha
ligature, thus there is no proper mkmk anchors between both. 

But, for example, 1615 (damma) has the appropriate anchor.

>
>   {
>    ["anchors"]={
>     ["basemark"]={["Anchor-11"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=250,},},
>     ["mark"]={["Anchor-13"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=-100,},["Anchor-7"  
> ]={["x"]=0,["y"]=0,},},
>    },
>    ["name"]="shadda",
>    ["unicode"]=1617,
>   },
>
>   {
>    ["anchors"]={
>
> ["mark"]={["Anchor-13"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=-100,},["Anchor-7"]={["x"]=0,["y"]=0,},},
>    },
>    ["name"]="fatha",
>    ["unicode"]=1614,
>   },
>
> there is no mark reference in 1614 ...
>
> i'm not that fluent in fontforge so i cannot play further
>
>
>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 02:11:38PM +0300, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 12:53:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 12:22:16PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 10:10:23AM +0200, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also tried "Nafees Nastaliq" font
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.crulp.org/software/localization/Fonts/nafeesNastaleeq.html
>>>>>>>>>> with also broken result.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> See also the arabic chapter (XIII) in mk.pdf:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  http://pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mk.pdf
>>>>>>>>>> I was actually testing the fonts under its guidance :)
>>>>>>>>> Can you two team up on this issue? the problem is that 
>>>>>>>>> esp the  scripting part of OT is not really defined, only 
>>>>>>>>> has de facto specs i.e. reversed engineered uniscribe.
>>>>>>>> I had a quick look at the font with fontforge. It could 
>>>>>>>> that (part of  the) problems are related to the fact that 
>>>>>>>> most of the glyph encodings
>>>>>>>> in the font do not follow unicode, even though the font claims to be a
>>>>>>>> UnicodeBMP encoded font.  It is quite possible that that confuses the
>>>>>>>> contextual analyser in MkIV.
>>>>>>> I'm relaying solely on OpenType here, i.e. the actual glyphs aren't
>>>>>>> encoded and using isol, init, etc features to map characters to the
>>>>>>> appropriate glyphs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tested it with two other OpenType implementations, and I got the
>>>>>>> expected result.
>>>>>> this mkmk feature ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) is it directionally sensitive? some features are marked as r2l, some not
>>>>> No its not, I think r2l is applicable for cursive anchors and should
>>>>> mean nothing here (I was trying some thing but forget to remove it
>>>>> after).
>>>>> I removed r2l marl from all tables (except curs), but this 
>>>>> changed  nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) do you use proper mark -> basemark? or just mark to mark?
>>>> keep in mind that when you update your font, you have to remove the 
>>>>  cached version
>>> I removed the enteries in fonts/otf of the cache dir, is this enough?
>>>
>>
>> Uploaded Pango output of the same string for comparison,
>> http://khaled.djihed.com/context/
>> (Note: the dots are marks, not part of the base glyph; the dot is
>> basemark and the haraka is mark).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>  Khaled
>>
>>>  Khaled
>>>
>>>> Hans
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>>>>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>>>>      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>>>>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -- 
>>>  Khaled Hosny
>>>  Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support
  2008-05-09 14:42                       ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2008-05-09 16:34                         ` Hans Hagen
  2008-05-09 17:11                           ` Khaled Hosny
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-05-09 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Khaled Hosny; +Cc: ntg-context, Idris Samawi Hamid, Taco Hoekwater

Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 08:02:10PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>> (Moved from lautex mailing list, more bellow)
>>
>>
>> char 1614 and 1617 are to be relatively positioned using mkmk, so we  
>> need a mark and a basemark match an donly anchor-11 qualifies as  
>> basemark but ...
> 
> Actually, 1617 (shadda) and 1615 (fatha) will form a shadda-fatha
> ligature, thus there is no proper mkmk anchors between both. 

hm, they won't because 1615 becomes an initial and therefore an other 
character

also, i wonder if this is ok:

     ["char"]="shaddaKasra",
     ["components"]="shadda fatha",



-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support
  2008-05-09 16:34                         ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-05-09 17:11                           ` Khaled Hosny
  2008-05-09 17:16                             ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2008-05-09 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: ntg-context, Idris Samawi Hamid, Taco Hoekwater


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1419 bytes --]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 06:34:22PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 08:02:10PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>> (Moved from lautex mailing list, more bellow)
>>>
>>>
>>> char 1614 and 1617 are to be relatively positioned using mkmk, so we  
>>> need a mark and a basemark match an donly anchor-11 qualifies as   
>>> basemark but ...
>>
>> Actually, 1617 (shadda) and 1615 (fatha) will form a shadda-fatha
>> ligature, thus there is no proper mkmk anchors between both. 
>
> hm, they won't because 1615 becomes an initial and therefore an other  
> character

I'm not sure if I understand this, do marks have initial and other
forms?

>
> also, i wonder if this is ok:
>
>     ["char"]="shaddaKasra",
>     ["components"]="shadda fatha",

The ligature is OK, just the name is wrong (I named it wrongly while
asleep or something).


>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team

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[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support
  2008-05-09 17:11                           ` Khaled Hosny
@ 2008-05-09 17:16                             ` Hans Hagen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-05-09 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Khaled Hosny; +Cc: ntg-context, Idris Samawi Hamid, Taco Hoekwater

Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 06:34:22PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 08:02:10PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>>> (Moved from lautex mailing list, more bellow)
>>>>
>>>> char 1614 and 1617 are to be relatively positioned using mkmk, so we  
>>>> need a mark and a basemark match an donly anchor-11 qualifies as   
>>>> basemark but ...
>>> Actually, 1617 (shadda) and 1615 (fatha) will form a shadda-fatha
>>> ligature, thus there is no proper mkmk anchors between both. 
>> hm, they won't because 1615 becomes an initial and therefore an other  
>> character
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand this, do marks have initial and other
> forms?
> 
>> also, i wonder if this is ok:
>>
>>     ["char"]="shaddaKasra",
>>     ["components"]="shadda fatha",
> 
> The ligature is OK, just the name is wrong (I named it wrongly while
> asleep or something).

no, but we have

\char 1605\char1617\char1614

which becomes:

\char57392\char1617\char1614\par

so, if you want such a ligature you need to ligature

\char57392\char1617

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-05-09 17:16 UTC | newest]

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2008-05-08 15:53                   ` [Dev-luatex] State of OpenType support Khaled Hosny
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