Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

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Hi,

Yesterday WXP crashed and it took me a whole day to
repair the thing and get it up and running again.

Ha

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

( Oops, pushed inadvertedly some key on my keyboard and the
message was away while in GMail - here's the sequel... )

Having heard Linux is, amongst other things, far more stable
I might be tempted to play with it and progressively build some
experience with it, master the beast and then switch some
applications, amongst which ConTeXt, to it.

As I presently don't know a thing about Linux, which distribution
do you recommend ?

Many thanks,
Alan

At Friday 13/06/2008 12:28, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Yesterday WXP crashed and it took me a whole day to
>repair the thing and get it up and running again.
>
>Ha

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Alan Stone
<software.list.1es9s@gmail.com> wrote:
> ( Oops, pushed inadvertedly some key on my keyboard and the
> message was away while in GMail - here's the sequel... )
>
> Having heard Linux is, amongst other things, far more stable
> I might be tempted to play with it and progressively build some
> experience with it, master the beast and then switch some
> applications, amongst which ConTeXt, to it.
>
> As I presently don't know a thing about Linux, which distribution
> do you recommend ?
I have played with fedora /red-hat, opensuse/suse, debian, ubuntu, slackware .
All goods, actually I'm using ubuntu.
Maybe fedora/opensuse with kde can be confortable for you .

BTW, I don't use tex from these distro, I always put all files under
/opt/luatex , compiling when necessary ;
it's in a someway distro-independent.





-- 
luigi
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Michael Hallgren]

Le vendredi 13 juin 2008 à 12:42 +0200, Alan Stone a écrit :
> ( Oops, pushed inadvertedly some key on my keyboard and the
> message was away while in GMail - here's the sequel... )
> 
> Having heard Linux is, amongst other things, far more stable
> I might be tempted to play with it and progressively build some
> experience with it, master the beast and then switch some
> applications, amongst which ConTeXt, to it.
> 
> As I presently don't know a thing about Linux, which distribution
> do you recommend ?

Hello :)

Over the years, I've been using mainly FreeBSD. But recently I gave the
Ubuntu distribution a chance. It's a really nice, and easier to manage,
distribution based on Debian Linux. I warmly recommend it.

mh

> 
> Many thanks,
> Alan
> 
> At Friday 13/06/2008 12:28, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >Yesterday WXP crashed and it took me a whole day to
> >repair the thing and get it up and running again.
> >
> >Ha
> 
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Olivier Guéry]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Alan Stone
<software.list.1es9s@gmail.com> wrote:
> ( Oops, pushed inadvertedly some key on my keyboard and the
> message was away while in GMail - here's the sequel... )
>
> Having heard Linux is, amongst other things, far more stable
> I might be tempted to play with it and progressively build some
> experience with it, master the beast and then switch some
> applications, amongst which ConTeXt, to it.
>
> As I presently don't know a thing about Linux, which distribution
> do you recommend ?

More than the distribution (all the major ones are less or more the
same), you must choose your desktop environment : Gnome / KDE (or xfce
for a small and speedy one).

No troll, be it's usual to say :
The gnome one is more « run it, it's simple, it works » but it's more
difficult to do really fine tune (even if you can do them).
KDE : run it, it works (too) but you can fine tweaks on each part (the
menues are impressive).

Remember that the liveCDs are your friends : just try them !

I'm using Ubuntu and gnome but all the other choices are good.

Welcome in a « linux » world !
Olivier.

-- 
[Message tapé sur un clavier Bépo : http://www.clavier-dvorak.org ]
Olivier nemolivier@gmail.com http://nemolivier.blogspot.com
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Diego Depaoli]

2008/6/13 Michael Hallgren <m.hallgren@free.fr>:
>> As I presently don't know a thing about Linux, which distribution
>> do you recommend ?
>
> Hello :)
>
> Over the years, I've been using mainly FreeBSD. But recently I gave the
> Ubuntu distribution a chance. It's a really nice, and easier to manage,
> distribution based on Debian Linux. I warmly recommend it.

Ubuntu or Mandriva.are good choices for ex-windows users,
You can try also OpenSolaris which seems very, very promising.


-- 
Diego Depaoli
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Charles P. Schaum]

I had a poor experience with "commercial" design software on Windows (by
Serif, a company based out of the UK.) That pushed me to Linux.

I started with Debian "woody" and right away I had to fetch and compile
kernel modules from an Intel code base. I actually got Debian working
well under the 2.4 kernel and KDE (cause Gnome 2 was only just
starting). Then I went with Fedora, Mandrake, and SuSE. Each had strong
and weak points, except Mandrake (now Mandriva) that only had weak
points. I then toured through the BSD's and found that I like the X
implementation there the best, but the desktop experience was not the
best. I even tried Plan 9 and Solaris, which is slow. And I use a Mac
for work. I now run FreeBSD on a server and Ubuntu on desktop.

If you know Windows, then Mac, PC-BSD, and Ubuntu/Kubuntu are the likely
candidates. Increasingly I grow irritated with Gnome, but KDE is also
quite bloated. The Push Button Installer technology of PC-BSD, similar
to Mac and Windows, will feel very "normal."

TeX and friends work out of the box as TeX Live 2007 on Ubuntu and
Kubuntu. There is no "port" for FreeBSD apart from TeTeX AFAIK but there
are binaries that one can install under /usr/local. The BSD's have
better docs than Linux. Period. And their kernel and userland come
together in a full-features OS while Linux is a kernel and GNU, etc.,
userland. Kile for KDE and auctex with emacs are probably what you will
be interested in. TeXmaker forked from Kile and it can be slow. TeXmacs
and LyX are not strictly TeX/LaTeX, but close.

I'm torn between a TeX packaged "distro" and independent construction
either via TeX Live itself or DIY'ing it from CTAN. OTOH it's nice not
to have to build your own texmf tree; but it can be done and I've done
it by following the specs. Then again, if you are not LaTeXing things,
you might not need it. It gives one, however, a certain air of
self-gratification to master mktexlsr and have kpsewhich find stuff.

Also anything Linux-based is likely to have someone's ideology about
"freedom" of some sort butting into otherwise perfectly good software
packages and delimiting the "non-free" stuff, resulting in, for example,
the hyperlinked ConTeXt manuals not finding their links. With the BSD's
you don't have this politicking down on the commune. But TeTeX is a bit
outdated for my tastes.

Charles

On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:42 +0200, Alan Stone wrote:
> ( Oops, pushed inadvertedly some key on my keyboard and the
> message was away while in GMail - here's the sequel... )
> 
> Having heard Linux is, amongst other things, far more stable
> I might be tempted to play with it and progressively build some
> experience with it, master the beast and then switch some
> applications, amongst which ConTeXt, to it.
> 
> As I presently don't know a thing about Linux, which distribution
> do you recommend ?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Alan
> 
> At Friday 13/06/2008 12:28, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >Yesterday WXP crashed and it took me a whole day to
> >repair the thing and get it up and running again.
> >
> >Ha
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[John Devereux]

"Charles P. Schaum" <verbo.solo@sbcglobal.net> writes:


[...]

>
> I'm torn between a TeX packaged "distro" and independent construction
> either via TeX Live itself or DIY'ing it from CTAN. OTOH it's nice not
> to have to build your own texmf tree; but it can be done and I've done
> it by following the specs. Then again, if you are not LaTeXing things,
> you might not need it. It gives one, however, a certain air of
> self-gratification to master mktexlsr and have kpsewhich find stuff.

I use Debian. Context seems to be well supported, with recent packages
(thanks to Norbert Preining I believe). Ubuntu should be fine too (it
is a debian derivative) and perhaps more polished for a new user.


[...]


-- 

John Devereux
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

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Thanks all for kindly posting your precious recommendations and tips.

(K)Ubuntu and PC-BSD Live CD's it will be... as an appetizer.  :O)

For future reference for people considering giving it a go, here are some
useful links:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions
- http://distrowatch.com

Best,
Alan

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

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Wow... this is a good one:

Linux Distribution chooser: answer some questions and there you go...
http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/

Results were *very* close to your suggestions.

Alan

On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 8:20 AM, Alan Stone <software.list.1es9s@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks all for kindly posting your precious recommendations and tips.
>
> (K)Ubuntu and PC-BSD Live CD's it will be... as an appetizer.  :O)
>
> For future reference for people considering giving it a go, here are some
> useful links:
> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution
> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions
> - http://distrowatch.com
>
> Best,
> Alan
>

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Taco Hoekwater]

Alan Stone wrote:
> Wow... this is a good one:
> 
> Linux Distribution chooser: answer some questions and there you go...
> http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/
> 
> Results were *very* close to your suggestions.

That was fun! It actually proposed the distro I'm using (Mandriva).


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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[luigi scarso]

>> Linux Distribution chooser: answer some questions and there you go...
>> http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/
>>
>> Results were *very* close to your suggestions.
>
> That was fun! It actually proposed the distro I'm using (Mandriva).

Even for me (I'm using ubuntu)
-- 
luigi
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Matija Šuklje]

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Dne sobota 14. junija 2008 je luigi scarso napisal(a):
> >> Linux Distribution chooser: answer some questions and there you go...
> >> http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/
> >>
> >> Results were *very* close to your suggestions.
> >
> > That was fun! It actually proposed the distro I'm using (Mandriva).

Nice. I got as results both my current distribution (Gentoo) and my previous 
and first one (Slackware) :]

I have to say this is the first test that where actually got out the distro I 
would choose myself!


Cheers,
Matija

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[John Culleton]

On Saturday 14 June 2008 03:40:58 am Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Alan Stone wrote:
> > Wow... this is a good one:
> >
> > Linux Distribution chooser: answer some questions and there you
> > go... http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/
> >
> > Results were *very* close to your suggestions.
>
> That was fun! It actually proposed the distro I'm using (Mandriva).


It chose Gentoo (too much for me) and Slackware (been using it more 
than ten years.)

-- 
John Culleton
Resources for every author and publisher:
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/packagers.pdf
http://www.creativemindspress.com/newbiefaq.htm
http://www.gropenassoc.com/TopLevelPages/reference%20desk.htm
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

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Hi,

I've have Ubuntu 8.04 running in a VirtualBox under WXP. No dual boot setup
necessary any more. How Cool ! Works like a charm - apart from a USB printer
problem.

Installed TeX, ConTeXt and XeTeX through the Package Manager (to test
whether it worked).

Now trying to update ConTeXt with

ctxtools --updatecontext

which gives

CtxTools | updating
/etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive
CtxTools | unable to change to
/etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive

whether I'm in root or not !???

What's the corresponding command for XeTeX ? ( tried --updatexetex which
failed )

Best,
Alan

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Alan Stone
<software.list.1es9s@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've have Ubuntu 8.04 running in a VirtualBox under WXP. No dual boot setup
> necessary any more. How Cool ! Works like a charm - apart from a USB printer
> problem.
>
> Installed TeX, ConTeXt and XeTeX through the Package Manager (to test
> whether it worked).
>
> Now trying to update ConTeXt with
>
> ctxtools --updatecontext
>
> which gives
>
> CtxTools | updating
> /etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive
> CtxTools | unable to change to
> /etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive
>
> whether I'm in root or not !???
>
> What's the corresponding command for XeTeX ? ( tried --updatexetex which
> failed )

Why should this work, XeTeX is a binary and ConTeXt a TeX macro package
independant of the engine (one fits it all).

Regards
Wolfgang
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

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At least ctxtools --updatecontext should work.
The /etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive are
there.

Or am I (again) missing something ?

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Alan Stone
> <software.list.1es9s@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've have Ubuntu 8.04 running in a VirtualBox under WXP. No dual boot
> setup
> > necessary any more. How Cool ! Works like a charm - apart from a USB
> printer
> > problem.
> >
> > Installed TeX, ConTeXt and XeTeX through the Package Manager (to test
> > whether it worked).
> >
> > Now trying to update ConTeXt with
> >
> > ctxtools --updatecontext
> >
> > which gives
> >
> > CtxTools | updating
> > /etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive
> > CtxTools | unable to change to
> > /etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive
> >
> > whether I'm in root or not !???
> >
> > What's the corresponding command for XeTeX ? ( tried --updatexetex which
> > failed )
>
> Why should this work, XeTeX is a binary and ConTeXt a TeX macro package
> independant of the engine (one fits it all).
>
> Regards
> Wolfgang
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Alan Stone
<software.list.1es9s@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've have Ubuntu 8.04 running in a VirtualBox under WXP. No dual boot setup
> necessary any more. How Cool ! Works like a charm - apart from a USB printer
> problem.
>
> Installed TeX, ConTeXt and XeTeX through the Package Manager (to test
> whether it worked).
>
> Now trying to update ConTeXt with
>
> ctxtools --updatecontext
>
> which gives
>
> CtxTools | updating
> /etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive
> CtxTools | unable to change to
> /etc/texmf:/var/lib/texmf:/usr/share/texmf:/usr/share/texmf-texlive
>
> whether I'm in root or not !???
>
> What's the corresponding command for XeTeX ? ( tried --updatexetex which
> failed )

You cannot update the binaries that way (you are not supposed to :).

On your own risk, you may update the binaries from minimals
    rsync -av \
    rsync://contextgarden.net/minimals/current/bin/xetex/linux/bin/ \
    /path/to/bin/with/xetex

Mojca
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

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I don't understand. Please explain...

(1) >You cannot update the binaries that way (you are not supposed to :).

Why can't the binaries be updated that way (why aren't we supposed to) ?


(2) >On your own risk, you may update the binaries from minimals
>   rsync -av \
>   rsync://contextgarden.net/minimals/current/bin/xetex/linux/bin/ \
>   /path/to/bin/with/xetex

Why on your own risk ?


Thanks a lot for clearing up the mist,
Alan


On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Mojca Miklavec <
mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> You cannot update the binaries that way (you are not supposed to :).
>
> On your own risk, you may update the binaries from minimals
>    rsync -av \
>    rsync://contextgarden.net/minimals/current/bin/xetex/linux/bin/ \
>    /path/to/bin/with/xetex
>
> Mojca
>
>

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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

The more I research, the less I understand...

>From http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Minimals :

   --- quote ---

   Updating
   For now, the main recipe to update is to run first-setup again. A
command similar to
   ctxtools --updatecontext might be provided in the future.

   --- unquote ---

If ctxtools can't be used to update the OS's ConTeXt installation and
there isn't a
corresponding one to update the minimals' ConTeXt installation, what's
its use then ?

Also...

   --- quote ---

   Author: Mojca Miklavec
   Date: 2007-12-22 00:42 +100
   To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
   Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Keeping up-to-date under TeXLive
   On Dec 21, 2007 6:22 PM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
   > My new Ubuntu installation includes TeXLive version 2007-10. Is there
   > a way for me to keep the ConTeXt part of this up-to-date with current
   > (stable) versions?

   ctxtools --updatecontext

   --- unquote ---

Uh ???

Best,
Alan

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Alan Stone
<software.list.1es9s@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't understand. Please explain...
>
> (1) >You cannot update the binaries that way (you are not supposed to :).
>
> Why can't the binaries be updated that way (why aren't we supposed to) ?
>
>
> (2) >On your own risk, you may update the binaries from minimals
> >   rsync -av \
> >   rsync://contextgarden.net/minimals/current/bin/xetex/linux/bin/ \
> >   /path/to/bin/with/xetex
>
> Why on your own risk ?
>
>
> Thanks a lot for clearing up the mist,
> Alan
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Mojca Miklavec <mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You cannot update the binaries that way (you are not supposed to :).
>>
>> On your own risk, you may update the binaries from minimals
>>    rsync -av \
>>    rsync://contextgarden.net/minimals/current/bin/xetex/linux/bin/ \
>>    /path/to/bin/with/xetex
>>
>> Mojca
>>
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Alan Stone
<software.list.1es9s@gmail.com> wrote:
> The more I research, the less I understand...
>
> >From http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Minimals :
>
>   --- quote ---
>
>   Updating
>   For now, the main recipe to update is to run first-setup again. A
> command similar to
>   ctxtools --updatecontext might be provided in the future.
>
>   --- unquote ---
>
> If ctxtools can't be used to update the OS's ConTeXt installation and
> there isn't a
> corresponding one to update the minimals' ConTeXt installation, what's
> its use then ?
>
> Also...
>
>   --- quote ---
>
>   Author: Mojca Miklavec
>   Date: 2007-12-22 00:42 +100
>   To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
>   Subject: Re: [NTG-context] Keeping up-to-date under TeXLive
>   On Dec 21, 2007 6:22 PM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
>   > My new Ubuntu installation includes TeXLive version 2007-10. Is there
>   > a way for me to keep the ConTeXt part of this up-to-date with current
>   > (stable) versions?
>
>   ctxtools --updatecontext
>
>   --- unquote ---
>
> Uh ???

The next step is going back to windows ;-)

Regards
Wolfgang
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

Hi Wolfgang,

Hmmm... There's Mac too.

However, I don't give up so quickly.  :O)

I find Linux rather cool. At the same time
finding Windows' desktop/window manager
more and more boring, considering the
personalisation capabilities of GNU/Linux'
desktops, etc...

Hence, for the time being, I'll keep on truckin'.
Stimulates my grey cells.

So I'd really like this issue figured out.

Any clues ?

Best,
Alan

> The next step is going back to windows ;-)
>
> Regards
> Wolfgang
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Alan Stone wrote:
> Hi Wolfgang,
>
> Hmmm... There's Mac too.
>
> However, I don't give up so quickly.  :O)
>
> I find Linux rather cool. At the same time
> finding Windows' desktop/window manager
> more and more boring, considering the
> personalisation capabilities of GNU/Linux'
> desktops, etc...
>
> Hence, for the time being, I'll keep on truckin'.
> Stimulates my grey cells.
>
> So I'd really like this issue figured out.
>
> Any clues ?

ctxtools --updatecontext has been written before minimals were
existing. And since there is (or was) no reliable source to take the
binaries from, it didn't ever update any binaries.

All it does is:
- download the zip
- unzip it
- make the formats

If you are lucky, it puts the files where you want them to be, but
since every installation works its own way, it's hard to predict where
to put them; on MikTeX it behaved a bit bad. And with gwTeX that
provides incremental updates, the updates by ConTeXt and updates by
gwTeX didn't really like each other (I mean - updates by gwTeX were
shielded by the version you downloaded with ctxtools).

Also, a similar problem existed with format generation which fly to
the proper place if you are lucky. If you are not, then format fly to
some weird place, but in general it worked.

you can theoretically use mtxrun --script update --update --make
--force, but I fear that it will only work with the minimals since
many things are hardcoded (and not worked out perfectly yet).

> (1) >You cannot update the binaries that way (you are not supposed to :).
>
> Why can't the binaries be updated that way (why aren't we supposed to) ?

Of course you can. But if you happen to update TL package, your
additions will be destroyed. And you need to rebuild all the other
formats. It's not so harmful.

Supposed to relates to "your system would be supposed to update its
own packages", but for ConTeXt it obviously doesn't do.

> (2) >On your own risk, you may update the binaries from minimals
>>   rsync -av \
>>   rsync://contextgarden.net/minimals/current/bin/xetex/linux/bin/ \
>>   /path/to/bin/with/xetex
>
> Why on your own risk ?

If you destroy (overwrite) the old binary :) - if you dowload the
wrong binary, then you have neither working. Generally, it should work
OK.

Mojca
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

Thanks Mojca.

> If you are lucky, it puts the files where you want them to be, but
> since every installation works its own way, it's hard to predict where
> to put them;
>...
> Of course you can. But if you happen to update TL package, your
> additions will be destroyed. And you need to rebuild all the other
> formats. It's not so harmful.
>
> Supposed to relates to "your system would be supposed to update its
> own packages", but for ConTeXt it obviously doesn't do.
>...
> If you destroy (overwrite) the old binary :) - if you dowload the
> wrong binary, then you have neither working. Generally, it should work
> OK.

Caramba! Tricky, tricky stuff.

FYI, http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation_hints mentions, under the
"Updating" paragraph, (after calling ctxtools --updatecontext) "then you
have to regenerate the format(s)...", while you wrote

> All it does is:
> - download the zip
> - unzip it
> - make the formats

I wonder, for the record, ...

Is there any (installation) process which enables ctxtools to update ConTeXt
without risking to #@!&X% it up ?

Side-question: "But if you happen to update TL package" - what does TL
stand for ?

Best,
Alan
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Alan Stone wrote:

> Thanks Mojca.
>
>> If you are lucky, it puts the files where you want them to be, but
>> since every installation works its own way, it's hard to predict where
>> to put them;
>> ...
>> Of course you can. But if you happen to update TL package, your
>> additions will be destroyed. And you need to rebuild all the other
>> formats. It's not so harmful.
>>
>> Supposed to relates to "your system would be supposed to update its
>> own packages", but for ConTeXt it obviously doesn't do.
>> ...
>> If you destroy (overwrite) the old binary :) - if you dowload the
>> wrong binary, then you have neither working. Generally, it should work
>> OK.
>
> Caramba! Tricky, tricky stuff.
>
> FYI, http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation_hints mentions, under the
> "Updating" paragraph, (after calling ctxtools --updatecontext) "then you
> have to regenerate the format(s)...", while you wrote
>
>> All it does is:
>> - download the zip
>> - unzip it
>> - make the formats
>
> I wonder, for the record, ...
>
> Is there any (installation) process which enables ctxtools to update ConTeXt
> without risking to #@!&X% it up ?

Yes. If you do not need latex, the safest thing to not install anything 
tex related from your distribution and only install the minimals from the 
garden. (You need to update using the mechanism provided by the minimals, 
and not ctxtools).

The trouble with this is two-fold. First, you may need to use latex, and 
second, many packages on linux require tex, so you get a tex from the 
distribution also.

Now you have two options: Either isolate minimal context from the one 
provided by the distribution, or make them co-exist. Isolating them is 
easy, the minimals even come with a script "setuptex" which does that. So, 
you just source setuptex before running context. If you want minimals and 
distribution tex to coexits, things are a bit tricky. You need to 
understand how the tex distribution works, which is an intangled (for the 
want of a better word) mess.

However, the more fundamental question is: why do you need to update tex 
manually, why doesn't the distribution update tex frequently. Part of the 
reason is that it did not need to. Before luatex and xetex, tex binaries 
got updated occasionally. So, a periodic update of the binaries was good 
enough. As for macro packages, the biggest component is LaTeX, and LaTeX 
core is updated *very* slowly. So, again a periodic update was good 
enough.

ConTeXt somehow spoils the party by adding features at an alarmingly fast 
rate. So, if you want to use new features you must update. So, someone 
needs to package everything for the distribution so that all users can 
frequently update context.

Currently the only distribution that does that is Debian. Norbert Preining 
maintains a .deb for context macros which is updated fairly regularly. So, 
if you are on a debian based system, you can use Norbert's context 
package, and have a fairly recent context (~1-2 months old) distribution. 
For most cases this would work, unless you want to test the latest 
features.


> Side-question: "But if you happen to update TL package" - what does TL
> stand for ?

Texlive. Currently TUG (Tex User group) releases a DVD each year 
containing the recent copy of all tex/latex/context packages and all 
binaries needed to run tex and friends on Windows, linux and mac. These 
days, most linux distributions use texlive as a source of tex packages 
that they include.

Aditya
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Re: Geeze, I might try Linux after all... (not too off-tpic I hope)

[Alan Stone]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4014 bytes --]

Thanks for your extensive comments Aditya. It's (finally) *much* clearer
now.

> Now you have two options: Either isolate minimal context from the one
> provided by the distribution, or make them co-exist. Isolating them is
> easy, the minimals even come with a script "setuptex" which does that. So,
> you just source setuptex before running context. If you want minimals and
> distribution tex to coexits, things are a bit tricky. You need to
> understand how the tex distribution works, which is an intangled (for the
> want of a better word) mess.

I'll take the isolation option then.

A question about the minimals...

http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Minimals
mentions<http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Minimals%20mentions>
"The
Minimals are an attempt to provide the same functionality as the
current Pragma's
minimal ConTeXt distributions <http://www.pragma-ade.com/download-1.htm> in
the zip files."

What's the difference (in provided functionalities) between the
contextgarden minimals and the pragma ones ?

Alan


On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:
> Yes. If you do not need latex, the safest thing to not install anything
> tex related from your distribution and only install the minimals from the
> garden. (You need to update using the mechanism provided by the minimals,
> and not ctxtools).
>
> The trouble with this is two-fold. First, you may need to use latex, and
> second, many packages on linux require tex, so you get a tex from the
> distribution also.
>
> Now you have two options: Either isolate minimal context from the one
> provided by the distribution, or make them co-exist. Isolating them is
> easy, the minimals even come with a script "setuptex" which does that. So,
> you just source setuptex before running context. If you want minimals and
> distribution tex to coexits, things are a bit tricky. You need to
> understand how the tex distribution works, which is an intangled (for the
> want of a better word) mess.
>
> However, the more fundamental question is: why do you need to update tex
> manually, why doesn't the distribution update tex frequently. Part of the
> reason is that it did not need to. Before luatex and xetex, tex binaries
> got updated occasionally. So, a periodic update of the binaries was good
> enough. As for macro packages, the biggest component is LaTeX, and LaTeX
> core is updated *very* slowly. So, again a periodic update was good
> enough.
>
> ConTeXt somehow spoils the party by adding features at an alarmingly fast
> rate. So, if you want to use new features you must update. So, someone
> needs to package everything for the distribution so that all users can
> frequently update context.
>
> Currently the only distribution that does that is Debian. Norbert Preining
> maintains a .deb for context macros which is updated fairly regularly. So,
> if you are on a debian based system, you can use Norbert's context
> package, and have a fairly recent context (~1-2 months old) distribution.
> For most cases this would work, unless you want to test the latest
> features.
>
>
>> Side-question: "But if you happen to update TL package" - what does TL
>> stand for ?
>
> Texlive. Currently TUG (Tex User group) releases a DVD each year
> containing the recent copy of all tex/latex/context packages and all
> binaries needed to run tex and friends on Windows, linux and mac. These
> days, most linux distributions use texlive as a source of tex packages
> that they include.
>
> Aditya
>
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> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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