* French punctuation : tests @ 2008-09-25 19:40 Olivier Guéry 2008-09-25 20:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2008-09-29 20:13 ` Peter Münster 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Olivier Guéry @ 2008-09-25 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 856 bytes --] Hello, It seem's that there's some changes on the « frenchpunctuation front » ! Thank's. I modified my test file and ad more precise rules to the wiki : http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation I test it with luatex 0.29 and context 2008.09.21 * Strange bug : the space After the openning quote («) is twice bigger than the one before the closing one (»). Look at test 3 * Wolfgang change the wiki about the compose word, but using this (with the syntax compose||word) I get an endash (–) and not the normal sign (-). Test 5 * There should't be space between two sign. Test 2 * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with othe fonts). Test 4 As usual, if you need more information, just ask ! Cheers, Olivier. -- [Message tapé sur un clavier Bépo : http://www.clavier-dvorak.org ] http://nemolivier.blogspot.com [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1184 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: test-french-punctuation.tex --] [-- Type: application/x-tex, Size: 1498 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: test-french-punctuation.pdf --] [-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 18088 bytes --] [-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-25 19:40 French punctuation : tests Olivier Guéry @ 2008-09-25 20:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2008-09-26 8:05 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-09-29 20:13 ` Peter Münster 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2008-09-25 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 25.09.2008 um 21:40 schrieb Olivier Guéry: > Hello, > > It seem's that there's some changes on the « frenchpunctuation front » > ! Thank's. > > I modified my test file and ad more precise rules to the wiki : > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation > I test it with luatex 0.29 and context 2008.09.21 > > * Strange bug : the space After the openning quote («) is twice bigger > than the one before the closing one (»). Look at test 3 > * Wolfgang change the wiki about the compose word, but using this > (with the syntax compose||word) I get an endash (–) and not the normal > sign (-). Test 5 > * There should't be space between two sign. Test 2 > * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with > othe fonts). Test 4 Point 3: \definehspace[fr][quote][\zeropoint] \installlanguage [fr] [leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote, rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote, leftquotation=\leftguillemot, rightquotation=\rightguillemot] Point 4: \definehspace[fr][footnote][.1667\emspaceamount] \definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}] \setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}] Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-25 20:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2008-09-26 8:05 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-09-26 9:57 ` Olivier Guéry 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Olivier Guéry @ 2008-09-26 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1595 bytes --] 2008/9/25 Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> > > Am 25.09.2008 um 21:40 schrieb Olivier Guéry: > > > Hello, > > > > It seem's that there's some changes on the « frenchpunctuation front » > > ! Thank's. > > > > I modified my test file and ad more precise rules to the wiki : > > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation > > I test it with luatex 0.29 and context 2008.09.21 > > > > * Strange bug : the space After the openning quote («) is twice bigger > > than the one before the closing one (»). Look at test 3 > > * Wolfgang change the wiki about the compose word, but using this > > (with the syntax compose||word) I get an endash (–) and not the normal > > sign (-). Test 5 > > * There should't be space between two sign. Test 2 > > * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with > > othe fonts). Test 4 > > > Point 3: > > \definehspace[fr][quote][\zeropoint] > > \installlanguage > [fr] > [leftquote=\upperleftdoublesixquote, > rightquote=\upperrightdoubleninequote, > leftquotation=\leftguillemot, > rightquotation=\rightguillemot] > > Point 4: > > \definehspace[fr][footnote][.1667\emspaceamount] > > \definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}] > > \setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}] Wolfgang is definitly the super hero of this list \o/. Hans, is there a « legal » procedure to have this inclued by default in the \frenchpunctuation command ? Cheers, Olivier. -- [Message tapé sur un clavier Bépo : http://www.clavier-dvorak.org ] http://nemolivier.blogspot.com [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2331 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-26 8:05 ` Olivier Guéry @ 2008-09-26 9:57 ` Olivier Guéry 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Olivier Guéry @ 2008-09-26 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1374 bytes --] Ok, aftre some test… It seem's that it's linked to the fonts… damn ! The value in « \definehspace[fr][footnote][-.2667\emspaceamount] » need to be negative, as I set it (work with my fontin_sans font, too big for lmodern font). Then I found two problems : — the space after is way too big :o) — how can I set other values of the \setupfootnotes ? I tried this : \setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}, bodyfont=\tfxx, width=70mm] But I get an error. Here is a minimal test about footnotes. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% \mainlanguage [fr] \language [fr] \usemodule [french] \setcharacterspacing [frenchpunctuation] \starttext \definehspace[fr][footnote][.1667\emspaceamount] \definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}] \setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}] This texte, with a footnote\footnote{there's a point just after}. \definehspace[fr][footnote][-.05\emspaceamount] \definehspace[footnote][\hspaceamount\currentlanguage{footnote}] \setupfootnotes[textcommand={\hspace[footnote]\nobreak\high}] Same thing, with a negative value\footnote{look at the space after…}. \stoptext %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Cheers, Olivier. PS : Context version : 2008.09.21 22:31, luatex 0.29.0 beta. -- [Message tapé sur un clavier Bépo : http://www.clavier-dvorak.org ] http://nemolivier.blogspot.com [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1633 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-25 19:40 French punctuation : tests Olivier Guéry 2008-09-25 20:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2008-09-29 20:13 ` Peter Münster 2008-09-30 9:51 ` Olivier Guéry 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Peter Münster @ 2008-09-29 20:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, Sep 25 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote: > * There should't be space between two sign. Test 2 Hello Olivier, IMHO, "frenchpunctuation" should just care about the additional spaces before some punctuation signs, that are the French typographic mainstream. Neither more, nor less. Two or three signs like "!!!" are anyway rare exceptions and perhaps grammatically even not allowed. For such exceptions one can use for example "\string!", if no space is wanted. I would like to see the rules as simple as this: - before ":", ";", "?", "!" and "»" add some tiny nobreakspace (for example half an inter-word space and stretchable) - if the author has already added a space (or nbsp) character before such sign, gobble it and use the tiny nbsp - same thing after "«" > * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with > othe fonts). Test 4 For me, no special treatment should be triggered with "frenchpunctuation" or \language[fr]. Footnote signs are just a matter of taste and style. > \mainlanguage [fr] \language[fr] > \setcharacterspacing [frenchpunctuation] Perhaps, it would make sense, to make one test file for \mainlanguage[fr] and another another one for \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] ? > 1 The « ; » signs shouldn’t be at the beginning of a line, there must be > space before all sign (look at the rules here : > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation) :\crlf To test, that the space is not breakable, one can use: \start \hsize1pt bla: bla : bla : bla~: bla? bla ? bla ? bla~? bla! bla ! bla ! bla~! bla; bla ; bla ; bla~; «bla» « bla » « bla » «~bla~»\par \stop Cheers, Peter -- http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-29 20:13 ` Peter Münster @ 2008-09-30 9:51 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-09-30 12:19 ` Peter Münster 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Olivier Guéry @ 2008-09-30 9:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2920 bytes --] 2008/9/29 Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> > > On Thu, Sep 25 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote: > > > * There should't be space between two sign. Test 2 > > Hello Olivier, > > IMHO, "frenchpunctuation" should just care about the additional spaces > before some punctuation signs, that are the French typographic mainstream. > Neither more, nor less. Two or three signs like "!!!" are anyway rare > exceptions and perhaps grammatically even not allowed. For such exceptions > one can use for example "\string!", if no space is wanted. They are not allowed for « strict » french. But if you type a conversation, you can have them. Think about the usage Celine made of the punctuation. So the rules is not : there's a space before « ! ». But there's a space befor « ! » if the signe before is not punctuation. But i understand your point of view. In fact such a rule is so unknow and rare that I thinked it's better to « hard-coded » it. > > I would like to see the rules as simple as this: > - before ":", ";", "?", "!" and "»" add some tiny nobreakspace (for example > half an inter-word space and stretchable) The rule is a bit more complicated for the « : ». My hope was the fact that if TeX is able to have strict rules, let use them ! > - if the author has already added a space (or nbsp) character before such > sign, gobble it and use the tiny nbsp > - same thing after "«" Yes you're probably right. But it's hard to determine what is juste taste or what is rules. > > * The space before the footnote sign is too big (it's clearer with > > othe fonts). Test 4 > > For me, no special treatment should be triggered with "frenchpunctuation" > or \language[fr]. Footnote signs are just a matter of taste and style. I don't know rules in other languages but in french the footnote sign is before ponctuation, so having big space before/after is not clean. If i find the setting for doing this, i'll use it :D. And probably other french people too. But a page on the wiki is maybe enough. > > \mainlanguage [fr] \language[fr] > > \setcharacterspacing [frenchpunctuation] > > Perhaps, it would make sense, to make one test file for \mainlanguage[fr] > and another another one for \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] ? Ok, result is join. Not shure it's the good syntax (and test n°4 failed to compile, but it can be my instalation). > > 1 The « ; » signs shouldn't be at the beginning of a line, there must be > > space before all sign (look at the rules here : > > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/frenchpunctuation) :\crlf > > To test, that the space is not breakable, one can use: > \start > \hsize1pt > bla: bla : bla : bla~: > bla? bla ? bla ? bla~? > bla! bla ! bla ! bla~! > bla; bla ; bla ; bla~; > «bla» « bla » « bla » «~bla~»\par > \stop Thanks a lot. Cheers, Olivier. -- [Message tapé sur un clavier Bépo : http://www.clavier-dvorak.org ] http://nemolivier.blogspot.com [-- Attachment #2: test-french-punctuation.pdf --] [-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 10116 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: test-french-punctuation.tex --] [-- Type: application/x-tex, Size: 3077 bytes --] [-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-30 9:51 ` Olivier Guéry @ 2008-09-30 12:19 ` Peter Münster 2008-09-30 20:26 ` Hans Hagen 2008-10-01 9:46 ` Olivier Guéry 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Peter Münster @ 2008-09-30 12:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Tue, Sep 30 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote: > Think about the usage Celine made of the punctuation. Hello Olivier, Who is Celine? > So the rules is not : there's a space before « ! ». But there's a > space befor « ! » if the signe before is not punctuation. > But i understand your point of view. In fact such a rule is so unknow > and rare that I thinked it's better to « hard-coded » it. If you begin to treat such exceptions, you'll never finish. Today you're thinking of "!!!", tomorrow there will be "19:20" or "Hi!jab". There are 2 main ideas: - Don't put too many exceptions into ConTeXt, especially if there is no hope to treat them all automatically. When a text needs special constructions, put them in a macro, for example \ThreeExclamationMarks. - For most "rules", the opinions diverge. Some people want a bit more kerning here or there, other people want less. > The rule is a bit more complicated for the « : ». My hope was the fact > that if TeX is able to have strict rules, let use them ! Think of the French LaTeX community: some want an inter-word space before a punctuation sign, others want only a half space or even less. So don't be too strict! > Yes you're probably right. But it's hard to determine what is juste > taste or what is rules. Not so hard. Almost everybody will agree with this minimal rule for French punctuation: - there has to be some nobreakspace before the punctuation signs :?!; and » and after « - there is some default value for the amount of this space, that can be easily changed by user-setup Cheers, Peter -- http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-30 12:19 ` Peter Münster @ 2008-09-30 20:26 ` Hans Hagen 2008-10-01 10:23 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-10-01 9:46 ` Olivier Guéry 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-09-30 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi, there is a new beta with a few important changes - partial rewrite of the tex-lua font definition interface (from now on font-ini is different for mkii and mkiv) - adapted spacing (for french), taking care of penalty/space situations and such for this beta you need the latest luatex as well because otherwise the font definition mechanism will not work (this means that the minimals also need to be updated) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-30 20:26 ` Hans Hagen @ 2008-10-01 10:23 ` Olivier Guéry 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Olivier Guéry @ 2008-10-01 10:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users 2008/9/30 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>: > Hi, > > there is a new beta with a few important changes > > - partial rewrite of the tex-lua font definition interface (from now on > font-ini is different for mkii and mkiv) > > - adapted spacing (for french), taking care of penalty/space situations > and such > > for this beta you need the latest luatex as well because otherwise the > font definition mechanism will not work (this means that the minimals > also need to be updated) > > Hans Here is the result : frenchpunctuation run's great ! The test n°2 is perfect ! (are they realy thin space ?) Thank's a lot, Olivier. -- [Message tapé sur un clavier Bépo : http://www.clavier-dvorak.org ] http://nemolivier.blogspot.com ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: French punctuation : tests 2008-09-30 12:19 ` Peter Münster 2008-09-30 20:26 ` Hans Hagen @ 2008-10-01 9:46 ` Olivier Guéry 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Olivier Guéry @ 2008-10-01 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users 2008/9/30 Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr>: > On Tue, Sep 30 2008, Olivier Guéry wrote: > >> Think about the usage Celine made of the punctuation. > > Hello Olivier, > > Who is Celine? A french writer from the 20th century. He's revolutionnary cause he make « true » litterature by using spoke language. He used a lot punctuatios (espacially « … » in fact). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Ferdinand_C%C3%A9line > >> So the rules is not : there's a space before « ! ». But there's a >> space befor « ! » if the signe before is not punctuation. >> But i understand your point of view. In fact such a rule is so unknow >> and rare that I thinked it's better to « hard-coded » it. > > If you begin to treat such exceptions, you'll never finish. Today you're > thinking of "!!!", tomorrow there will be "19:20" or "Hi!jab". > There are 2 main ideas: > - Don't put too many exceptions into ConTeXt, especially if there is no hope > to treat them all automatically. When a text needs special constructions, > put them in a macro, for example \ThreeExclamationMarks. I'll try this. > - For most "rules", the opinions diverge. Some people want a bit more > kerning here or there, other people want less. In fact it's the beauty un typography : there's rules and the last one is « you can alway find an exception ». I realy understand your point and you're certaily right, I'm too strict :-) ; let me just point out that since most people don't know the rules they expect their computer to know them. So you can say : be cool with the rules, let people do adjustment themselves, or make « hard » rules with the possibility to switch them off. I really don't know what's the better. Certainly something between the two, as usual ! > - there is some default value for the amount of this space, that can be > easily changed by user-setup Maybe it's just because changing setup look's hard for me… gonna learn ! Thank's a lot for taking the time to answer me. Olivier. -- [Message tapé sur un clavier Bépo : http://www.clavier-dvorak.org ] http://nemolivier.blogspot.com ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-10-01 10:23 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2008-09-25 19:40 French punctuation : tests Olivier Guéry 2008-09-25 20:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2008-09-26 8:05 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-09-26 9:57 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-09-29 20:13 ` Peter Münster 2008-09-30 9:51 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-09-30 12:19 ` Peter Münster 2008-09-30 20:26 ` Hans Hagen 2008-10-01 10:23 ` Olivier Guéry 2008-10-01 9:46 ` Olivier Guéry
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