XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Bart C. Wise]

The code below is used to load the Adobe Garmond fonts.  The problem is that 
quotes (``) produces two single quotes.  Similar with dashes: an en dash 
produces to dashes, an em dash likewise produces three dashes.  What am I 
doing wrong (again)!


\starttypescript[serif][agaramond][ec]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondRegular][name:AGaramond-Regular] [encoding=ec]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondItalic] [name:AGaramond-Italic][encoding=ec]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBold]   [name:AGaramond-Bold] [encoding=ec]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBoldIt]   [name:AGaramond-BoldItalic] 
[encoding=ec]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[serif][agaramond][name]
  \definefontsynonym  [Serif]           [AGaramondRegular]
  \definefontsynonym  [SerifItalic]     [AGaramondItalic]
  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBold]       [AGaramondBold]
  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBoldItalic] [AGaramondBoldIt]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[agaramond][ec]
  \definetypeface[agaramond][rm][serif][agaramond][default][encoding=ec]
\stoptypescript

\usetypescript[agaramond][ec]
\setupbodyfont[agaramond, 12pt]

\starttext
``Here's a lousy looking quote.''
Here are a couple of dashes: --
Here are three: ---
\stoptext

Thanks,
Bart
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Bart C. Wise wrote:
> The code below is used to load the Adobe Garmond fonts.  The problem is that
> quotes (``) produces two single quotes.  Similar with dashes: an en dash
> produces to dashes, an em dash likewise produces three dashes.  What am I
> doing wrong (again)!

Hello,

If you are using pdfTeX, then it's the "fault" of your fonts. (The one
that prepared the metrics "forgot" to add the proper ligatures to the
font. This is not trivial to make.) But then - if you are using
pdfTeX, there should be no "name:" in font declaration. name: is more
or less reserved for filename of otf/ttf fonts in XeTeX and LuaTeX.

If you are using XeTeX or LuaTeX, then you should remove all the [ec]
brackets and replace [encoding=ec] with [features=default].

Some clarification is needed though:

1.) You could (in theory) use some replacements for `` and " to
produce proper quotation marks, but for Unicode-aware engines that's
highly deprecated. Better use \quotation{Here's a nicely looking
quote.} or proper quotation marks. The sequence `` was a pure hack (in
my opinion), but a sensible one in that time since there were no
quotation marks neither on keyboards nor in encodings when Knuth wrote
TeX. \quotation is a cleaner way to produce quotation marks. (I'm a
bit biased though. Knuthian quotation marks never worked for my
language, so I always had to figure out how to get the proper ones,
and \quotation was the proper solution for me.)

2.) in LuaTeX and XeTeX there are three replacements left by default:
endash, emdash and apostrophe. The main reason being that it's still a
bit too difficult to:
- find endash and emdash on keyboards
- see the difference between the two, esp. in fixed width fonts
- change the habit and type proper apostrophe instead of corresponding
ascii character: '

3.) For some reason, "features=default" doesn't work as it should
since "script=latn" has been left out some time ago, so you need to
fix definition of "default" font features. (Or maybe someone else
knows how to handle this in a better way. This is what I do. I do not
claim that it's the right way to do it.)

\definefontfeature
  [default]
  [liga=yes,kern=yes,tlig=yes,script=latn]

> \starttypescript[serif][agaramond][ec]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondRegular][name:AGaramond-Regular] [encoding=ec]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondItalic] [name:AGaramond-Italic][encoding=ec]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBold]   [name:AGaramond-Bold] [encoding=ec]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBoldIt]   [name:AGaramond-BoldItalic]
> [encoding=ec]
> \stoptypescript
>
> \starttypescript[serif][agaramond][name]
>  \definefontsynonym  [Serif]           [AGaramondRegular]
>  \definefontsynonym  [SerifItalic]     [AGaramondItalic]
>  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBold]       [AGaramondBold]
>  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBoldItalic] [AGaramondBoldIt]
> \stoptypescript
>
> \starttypescript[agaramond][ec]
>  \definetypeface[agaramond][rm][serif][agaramond][default][encoding=ec]
> \stoptypescript
>
> \usetypescript[agaramond][ec]
> \setupbodyfont[agaramond, 12pt]
>
> \starttext
> ``Here's a lousy looking quote.''
> Here are a couple of dashes: --
> Here are three: ---
> \stoptext
>
> Thanks,
> Bart

Mojca
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Bart C. Wise]

Mojca,

Thanks for all you time in helping out.  I'm still having problems.  The 
\quote and \quotation work.  However, as you pointed out, the en, em and 
apostrophe do not work.

In addition, [features=default] did not compile, but [feature=default] did.

Here's what I'm working with:

\starttypescript[serif][agaramond]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondRegular][name:AGaramond-Regular] 
[feature=default]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondItalic] [name:AGaramond-Italic][feature=default]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBold]   [name:AGaramond-Bold] [feature=default]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBoldIt]   [name:AGaramond-BoldItalic] 
[feature=default]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[serif][agaramond][name]
  \definefontsynonym  [Serif]           [AGaramondRegular]
  \definefontsynonym  [SerifItalic]     [AGaramondItalic]
  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBold]       [AGaramondBold]
  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBoldItalic] [AGaramondBoldIt]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[agaramond]
  \definetypeface[agaramond][rm][serif][agaramond][default][feature=default]
\stoptypescript

\usetypescript[agaramond]
\setupbodyfont[agaramond, 12pt]
\definefontfeature[default]
    [liga=yes, kern=yes, tlig=yes, script=latn, mapping=tex-text]

Any more hints?

Bart

On Thursday 20 November 2008 09:44:05 pm Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:14 AM, Bart C. Wise wrote:
> > The code below is used to load the Adobe Garmond fonts.  The problem is
> > that quotes (``) produces two single quotes.  Similar with dashes: an en
> > dash produces to dashes, an em dash likewise produces three dashes.  What
> > am I doing wrong (again)!
>
> Hello,
>
> If you are using pdfTeX, then it's the "fault" of your fonts. (The one
> that prepared the metrics "forgot" to add the proper ligatures to the
> font. This is not trivial to make.) But then - if you are using
> pdfTeX, there should be no "name:" in font declaration. name: is more
> or less reserved for filename of otf/ttf fonts in XeTeX and LuaTeX.
>
> If you are using XeTeX or LuaTeX, then you should remove all the [ec]
> brackets and replace [encoding=ec] with [features=default].
>
> Some clarification is needed though:
>
> 1.) You could (in theory) use some replacements for `` and " to
> produce proper quotation marks, but for Unicode-aware engines that's
> highly deprecated. Better use \quotation{Here's a nicely looking
> quote.} or proper quotation marks. The sequence `` was a pure hack (in
> my opinion), but a sensible one in that time since there were no
> quotation marks neither on keyboards nor in encodings when Knuth wrote
> TeX. \quotation is a cleaner way to produce quotation marks. (I'm a
> bit biased though. Knuthian quotation marks never worked for my
> language, so I always had to figure out how to get the proper ones,
> and \quotation was the proper solution for me.)
>
> 2.) in LuaTeX and XeTeX there are three replacements left by default:
> endash, emdash and apostrophe. The main reason being that it's still a
> bit too difficult to:
> - find endash and emdash on keyboards
> - see the difference between the two, esp. in fixed width fonts
> - change the habit and type proper apostrophe instead of corresponding
> ascii character: '
>
> 3.) For some reason, "features=default" doesn't work as it should
> since "script=latn" has been left out some time ago, so you need to
> fix definition of "default" font features. (Or maybe someone else
> knows how to handle this in a better way. This is what I do. I do not
> claim that it's the right way to do it.)
>
> \definefontfeature
>   [default]
>   [liga=yes,kern=yes,tlig=yes,script=latn]
>
> > \starttypescript[serif][agaramond][ec]
> >  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondRegular][name:AGaramond-Regular]
> > [encoding=ec] \definefontsynonym[AGaramondItalic]
> > [name:AGaramond-Italic][encoding=ec] \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBold]  
> > [name:AGaramond-Bold] [encoding=ec] \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBoldIt]  
> > [name:AGaramond-BoldItalic] [encoding=ec]
> > \stoptypescript
> >
> > \starttypescript[serif][agaramond][name]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [Serif]           [AGaramondRegular]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [SerifItalic]     [AGaramondItalic]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBold]       [AGaramondBold]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBoldItalic] [AGaramondBoldIt]
> > \stoptypescript
> >
> > \starttypescript[agaramond][ec]
> >  \definetypeface[agaramond][rm][serif][agaramond][default][encoding=ec]
> > \stoptypescript
> >
> > \usetypescript[agaramond][ec]
> > \setupbodyfont[agaramond, 12pt]
> >
> > \starttext
> > ``Here's a lousy looking quote.''
> > Here are a couple of dashes: --
> > Here are three: ---
> > \stoptext
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bart
>
> Mojca
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage  :
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> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>________

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:40 AM, Bart C. Wise wrote:
> Mojca,
>
> Thanks for all you time in helping out.  I'm still having problems.  The
> \quote and \quotation work.  However, as you pointed out, the en, em and
> apostrophe do not work.
>
> In addition, [features=default] did not compile, but [feature=default] did.

What error did you get?
In that case feature=default has been ignored (unknown parameters get
ignored in ConTeXt), that's why it didn't complain, but it didn't work
either.

> Here's what I'm working with:
>
> \starttypescript[serif][agaramond]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondRegular][name:AGaramond-Regular]
> [feature=default]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondItalic] [name:AGaramond-Italic][feature=default]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBold]   [name:AGaramond-Bold] [feature=default]
>  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBoldIt]   [name:AGaramond-BoldItalic]
> [feature=default]
> \stoptypescript
>
> \starttypescript[serif][agaramond][name]
>  \definefontsynonym  [Serif]           [AGaramondRegular]
>  \definefontsynonym  [SerifItalic]     [AGaramondItalic]
>  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBold]       [AGaramondBold]
>  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBoldItalic] [AGaramondBoldIt]
> \stoptypescript
>
> \starttypescript[agaramond]
>  \definetypeface[agaramond][rm][serif][agaramond][default][feature=default]
> \stoptypescript
>
> \usetypescript[agaramond]
> \setupbodyfont[agaramond, 12pt]
> \definefontfeature[default]
>    [liga=yes, kern=yes, tlig=yes, script=latn, mapping=tex-text]
>
> Any more hints?

I don't see anything else being fundamentally wrong (you don't need
both mapping=tex-text and tlig=yes though, but that should not break
compilation). May I ask for the logs?

Mojca
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Bart C. Wise]

I think the error I got was not having enough sleep :-) because I worked on it 
this morning and it's working.  I'll tack on my current file below.  The font 
features does not seem to make any difference.  However, I took the same 
typescript and modified it for the Tallys font and I can turn ligatures on/off, 
kerning on/off, etc.  But the same typescript for the Adobe Garamond does not 
work, I'm perplexed and a bit frustrated.

I greatly appreciate your help thus far.

Bar

\definefontfeature[default]
    [liga=yes, kern=yes, tlig=yes, script=latn, mapping=tex-text]

\starttypescript[serif][agaramond]
  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondRegular]  [name:AGaramond-Regular]   
[features=default]
\stoptypescript                                                                       

\starttypescript[serif][agaramond][name]
  \definefontsynonym  [Serif]           [AGaramondRegular]  [features=default]
\stoptypescript                                                                

\starttypescript[AGaramond]
  \definetypeface[MyGaramond][rm][serif][agaramond][default][features=default]
\stoptypescript                                                               

\usetypescript[AGaramond]%[ec]
\setupbodyfont[MyGaramond, 12pt]

\starttext                                                                                
Ydes, Yffignac and Ygrande

fi ff ffi 

Two of [of] (of) \quote{of} \quotation{of} of? of! of*.

\quote{Ask Jeff}

\quotation{Ask Jeff}
\stoptext

On Friday 21 November 2008 09:01:13 am Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:40 AM, Bart C. Wise wrote:
> > Mojca,
> >
> > Thanks for all you time in helping out.  I'm still having problems.  The
> > \quote and \quotation work.  However, as you pointed out, the en, em and
> > apostrophe do not work.
> >
> > In addition, [features=default] did not compile, but [feature=default]
> > did.
>
> What error did you get?
> In that case feature=default has been ignored (unknown parameters get
> ignored in ConTeXt), that's why it didn't complain, but it didn't work
> either.
>
> > Here's what I'm working with:
> >
> > \starttypescript[serif][agaramond]
> >  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondRegular][name:AGaramond-Regular]
> > [feature=default]
> >  \definefontsynonym[AGaramondItalic]
> > [name:AGaramond-Italic][feature=default]
> > \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBold]   [name:AGaramond-Bold]
> > [feature=default] \definefontsynonym[AGaramondBoldIt]  
> > [name:AGaramond-BoldItalic] [feature=default]
> > \stoptypescript
> >
> > \starttypescript[serif][agaramond][name]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [Serif]           [AGaramondRegular]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [SerifItalic]     [AGaramondItalic]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBold]       [AGaramondBold]
> >  \definefontsynonym  [SerifBoldItalic] [AGaramondBoldIt]
> > \stoptypescript
> >
> > \starttypescript[agaramond]
> > 
> > \definetypeface[agaramond][rm][serif][agaramond][default][feature=default
> >] \stoptypescript
> >
> > \usetypescript[agaramond]
> > \setupbodyfont[agaramond, 12pt]
> > \definefontfeature[default]
> >    [liga=yes, kern=yes, tlig=yes, script=latn, mapping=tex-text]
> >
> > Any more hints?
>
> I don't see anything else being fundamentally wrong (you don't need
> both mapping=tex-text and tlig=yes though, but that should not break
> compilation). May I ask for the logs?
>
> Mojca
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage  :
> http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>________


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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Bart C. Wise wrote:
> I think the error I got was not having enough sleep :-) because I worked on it
> this morning and it's working.  I'll tack on my current file below.  The font
> features does not seem to make any difference.  However, I took the same
> typescript and modified it for the Tallys font and I can turn ligatures on/off,
> kerning on/off, etc.  But the same typescript for the Adobe Garamond does not
> work, I'm perplexed and a bit frustrated.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same problem, but I remember
that I had to try *all* different variants of Garamond when I needed
fi ligature and only a single font had the proper weight and that
ligature (I ended up using ITCGaramondStd-Lt and ITCGaramondStd-LtIta
after wasting way too much time trying to figure out what was wrong).

Did you check if the desired ligatures are available at all in the
font you are using?

Mojca
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Bart C. Wise]

Fontforge shows no ligatures for Adobe Garamond; however, it does show 
ligatures for the Tallys fonts.  So that probably explains why there are no 
ligatures.

However, the font has a lot of kerning pairs, but I don't seem to be able turn 
those on/off with the \definefontfeature directive as I could do in the Tallys 
font.

And back to the original problem, en dash, em dash, quotes that work in other 
fonts don't work here.  I can use \emdash, \endash, \quotesingle, etc., but 
this creates more work when you get text from an author and is more prone to 
error.

So is this a font problem?  Or is this something I'm doing wrong (and what)?

Thanks once again,
Bart


On Friday 21 November 2008 10:00:14 am Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Bart C. Wise wrote:
> > I think the error I got was not having enough sleep :-) because I worked
> > on it this morning and it's working.  I'll tack on my current file below.
> >  The font features does not seem to make any difference.  However, I took
> > the same typescript and modified it for the Tallys font and I can turn
> > ligatures on/off, kerning on/off, etc.  But the same typescript for the
> > Adobe Garamond does not work, I'm perplexed and a bit frustrated.
>
> I'm not sure if we're talking about the same problem, but I remember
> that I had to try *all* different variants of Garamond when I needed
> fi ligature and only a single font had the proper weight and that
> ligature (I ended up using ITCGaramondStd-Lt and ITCGaramondStd-LtIta
> after wasting way too much time trying to figure out what was wrong).
>
> Did you check if the desired ligatures are available at all in the
> font you are using?
>
> Mojca
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage  :
> http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>________

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 21.11.2008 um 18:25 schrieb Bart C. Wise:

> Fontforge shows no ligatures for Adobe Garamond; however, it does show
> ligatures for the Tallys fonts.  So that probably explains why there  
> are no
> ligatures.
>
> However, the font has a lot of kerning pairs, but I don't seem to be  
> able turn
> those on/off with the \definefontfeature directive as I could do in  
> the Tallys
> font.
>
> And back to the original problem, en dash, em dash, quotes that work  
> in other
> fonts don't work here.  I can use \emdash, \endash, \quotesingle,  
> etc., but
> this creates more work when you get text from an author and is more  
> prone to
> error.
>
> So is this a font problem?  Or is this something I'm doing wrong  
> (and what)?

Give us more information, what format does your Garamond
font has (type1, truetype or opentype). Have you tried
to load the font without ConTeXts interface:

\font\garamond="AGaramond-Regular:mapping=tex-text"

\garamond fi ffi -- --- ``text'' fl

\bye


Can you try to test your typescript with MkIV if this
makes a difference and finally, what is the output from
"mtxrun --script fonts --list AGaramond* --info".

Wolfgang

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: XeTeX, Adobe Garmond & dash, quotes, etc.

[Bart C. Wise]

On Friday 21 November 2008 11:11:39 am Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 21.11.2008 um 18:25 schrieb Bart C. Wise:
> > Fontforge shows no ligatures for Adobe Garamond; however, it does show
> > ligatures for the Tallys fonts.  So that probably explains why there
> > are no
> > ligatures.
> >
> > However, the font has a lot of kerning pairs, but I don't seem to be
> > able turn
> > those on/off with the \definefontfeature directive as I could do in
> > the Tallys
> > font.
> >
> > And back to the original problem, en dash, em dash, quotes that work
> > in other
> > fonts don't work here.  I can use \emdash, \endash, \quotesingle,
> > etc., but
> > this creates more work when you get text from an author and is more
> > prone to
> > error.
> >
> > So is this a font problem?  Or is this something I'm doing wrong
> > (and what)?
>
> Give us more information, what format does your Garamond
> font has (type1, truetype or opentype). Have you tried
> to load the font without ConTeXts interface:
>
> \font\garamond="AGaramond-Regular:mapping=tex-text"
>
> \garamond fi ffi -- --- ``text'' fl
>
> \bye
>
>
> Can you try to test your typescript with MkIV if this
> makes a difference and finally, what is the output from
> "mtxrun --script fonts --list AGaramond* --info".
>
> Wolfgang
>

The above code works, the -- and --- get translated to endash and emdash, the 
quotes look great.  Still no ligatures, but it doesn't seem that the font has 
any.  

I have no MkIV setup, and I'm in the middle of a project, so now is not a good 
time to switch.  Is there a convenient way to try on TeXLive2008 without 
changing my current setup?  If so, I'll give it a whirl.

$ mtxrun --script fonts --list AGaramond* --info
MtxRun | error unable to identify cnf file
MtxRun | error unable to identify cnf file
MtxRun | no cnf files found (TEXMFCNF may not be set/known)
MtxRun | unknown script: fonts

Something wrong with my TeXLive2008 installation?

Bart
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