* MkIV italic correction?
@ 2009-05-20 6:25 Corsair
2009-05-20 7:21 ` Yue Wang
2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Corsair @ 2009-05-20 6:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 324 bytes --]
Hi all,
Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code
produces two identical "f)"s
\starttext
{\it f})
{\it f\/})
\stoptext
--
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-20 6:25 MkIV italic correction? Corsair @ 2009-05-20 7:21 ` Yue Wang 2009-05-20 7:37 ` Corsair 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Yue Wang @ 2009-05-20 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users it supports italic correction by default. On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Corsair <chris.corsair@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code > produces two identical "f)"s > > \starttext > {\it f}) > {\it f\/}) > \stoptext > > -- > There is no emotion; there is peace. > There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. > There is no passion; there is serenity. > There is no death; there is the Force. > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-20 7:21 ` Yue Wang @ 2009-05-20 7:37 ` Corsair 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Corsair @ 2009-05-20 7:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8, Size: 620 bytes --] On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 03:21:59PM +0800, Yue Wang wrote: > it supports italic correction by default. Then what's your result of the code? Does it come with italic correction? > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Corsair <chris.corsair@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code > > produces two identical "f)"s > > > > \starttext > > {\it f}) > > {\it f\/}) > > \stoptext -- There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death; there is the Force. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-20 6:25 MkIV italic correction? Corsair 2009-05-20 7:21 ` Yue Wang @ 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 11:55 ` Corsair 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny 1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 9:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Corsair wrote: > Hi all, > > Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code > produces two identical "f)"s > > \starttext > {\it f}) > {\it f\/}) > \stoptext open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-21 11:55 ` Corsair 2009-05-21 11:59 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Corsair @ 2009-05-21 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 391 bytes --] On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:55:45AM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: > open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) But I notice that using the same fonts in XeTeX produces italic correction. Is it fake? -- There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death; there is the Force. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 11:55 ` Corsair @ 2009-05-21 11:59 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-21 13:36 ` Corsair 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-21 11:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Corsair wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:55:45AM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: >> open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) > > But I notice that using the same fonts in XeTeX produces italic > correction. Is it fake? I guess it is using the glyph boundingbox. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 11:59 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-21 13:36 ` Corsair 2009-05-22 9:15 ` Taco Hoekwater 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Corsair @ 2009-05-21 13:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 695 bytes --] On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 01:59:14PM +0200, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > Corsair wrote: > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:55:45AM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: > >> open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) > > > > But I notice that using the same fonts in XeTeX produces italic > > correction. Is it fake? > > I guess it is using the glyph boundingbox. Thank you. This sounds reasonable. Is there any way I can achieve this in MkIV? I'm currently using \def\/{\kern0.1em}, which is kinda dirty... -- There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death; there is the Force. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 13:36 ` Corsair @ 2009-05-22 9:15 ` Taco Hoekwater 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Corsair wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 01:59:14PM +0200, Taco Hoekwater wrote: >> Corsair wrote: >>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:55:45AM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: >>>> open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) >>> But I notice that using the same fonts in XeTeX produces italic >>> correction. Is it fake? >> I guess it is using the glyph boundingbox. > > Thank you. This sounds reasonable. Is there any way I can achieve > this in MkIV? I'm currently using \def\/{\kern0.1em}, which is kinda > dirty... Hans could implement something like this easily, but whether it does much good is doubtful (that square box does not actually tell you where something sticks out, just that it does). Best wishes, Taco ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 11:55 ` Corsair @ 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-05-21 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 698 bytes --] On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:55:45AM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: > Corsair wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Does MkIV support italic correction? Because the following code >> produces two identical "f)"s >> >> \starttext >> {\it f}) >> {\it f\/}) >> \stoptext > > open type fonts have no italic correction info (except in math) Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? [1]http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/non-standard.html Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer [-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny @ 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Khaled Hosny wrote: > > Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard > italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font > projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). Best wishes, Taco ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-22 10:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Taco Hoekwater wrote: > > Khaled Hosny wrote: >> Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard >> italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font >> projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? > > That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then > luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which > also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). so, that data would end up in a regular feature/lookup? of is it an entry in the glyph? for taco: it would be handy then to have a flag telling so, otherwise we would have to check for each glyph a field which for huge fonts is a slow downer ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 12:44 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-27 4:34 ` MkIV italic correction? Dohyun Kim 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 11:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hans Hagen wrote: > Taco Hoekwater wrote: >> >> Khaled Hosny wrote: >>> Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard >>> italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font >>> projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? >> >> That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then >> luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which >> also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). > > so, that data would end up in a regular feature/lookup? of is it an > entry in the glyph? They are automatically merged into the glyph, as glyph.italic_correction glyph.tex_height glyph.tex_depth Best wishes, Taco ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-05-22 12:44 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-27 4:34 ` MkIV italic correction? Dohyun Kim 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users > Hans Hagen a écrit : > > Robert-André Mauchin wrote: > > > > The best would be to get rid off > > \setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation] and adapt the frenchb Babel > > module from Daniel Flipo (source and explanation here > > http://daniel.flipo.free.fr/frenchb/ ), as a module (t-french > > modification), or when loading the language, but I really > > don't know how hard it would be since it handles a lot more than > > just punctuation marks. > > no, active chars for such things are no solution and will not be > supported in mkiv; setcharacterspacing is the way to go (and if it > breaks that should be fixed instead); language support shoul dbe > in the kernel anyway > > Hans I don't specifically talk about active chars (I don't really not what this is, I'm an user, not a coder), but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. Why? Let me take your example again: {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes of the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not exactly 1em and 0.25em. Moreover, this is true that in french typography we should use a thin space before some punctuation mark, and a thin space in France *was* one fourth of an em. BUT due to modern digital typography, a thin space now correspond to something like one fifth of an em. In digital typography, the normal space, i.e. inter-word separation, i.e. "espace justifiante" in French, has generally a size around one fourth of an em, calculated by the engine (you know that better than me). The thin space is a bit more than a half of the inter-word separation, i.e. between 1/8 and 1/6 of an em. So I *really* believe that you should not define space before and after punctuation with "arbitrary" em spacing. There must be a way to do a "search and replace" with the correct glyphs (U+202F and U+0020) before and after punctuation marks. > language support should be in the kernel anyway I agree of course, but although I believe this would encourage french "texers" to use Context, I don't think typography for a specific language is the priority for you&Taco right now. I wish you luck for the next beta release! Bob. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 12:44 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-22 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3301 bytes --] > but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em > before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp > (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable spaces, for instance. In addition, characters like U+202F are very badly supported across fonts, and if you take in account the fact that the most appropriate width will probably change depending on the language, you're likely to observe much more arbitrary results if you use the glyph for that character in font. I seriously doubt you want to rely on the font for that. > Why? Let me take your example again: > > {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} > > a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? > > Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes of > the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not exactly > 1em and 0.25em. That's not the reason. The reason is simply that \, is defined as a \kern by one sixth of an em (see core-spa.mkiv: it's equivalent to \thinspace, which is \kern .16667em). In the first line, the value of .25em is defined in core-spa.mkiv; you can redefine it if you want. In any case, every space is completely controlled by ConTeXt, we don't let the font mess around. For that matter, Latin Modern doesn't have a glyph for U+202F, so if we'd use it, we'd just see nothing: there would be no space at all, see attached file. > Moreover, this is true that in french typography we should use a thin space > before some punctuation mark, and a thin space in France *was* one fourth > of an em. BUT due to modern digital typography, a thin space now correspond > to something like one fifth of an em. > In digital typography, the normal space, i.e. inter-word separation, i.e. > "espace justifiante" in French, has generally a size around one fourth of > an em, calculated by the engine (you know that better than me). The thin > space is a bit more than a half of the inter-word separation, i.e. between > 1/8 and 1/6 of an em. All this really calls for more coordination in order to produce decent specifications, in my opinion. If you think ConTeXt's default should be different, it's fine and I encourage you to contact Sébastien to discuss about it. Report then to Hans and Peter for the implementation. > So I *really* believe that you should not define space before and after > punctuation with "arbitrary" em spacing. There must be a way to do a > "search and replace" with the correct glyphs (U+202F and U+0020) before and > after punctuation marks. As my example file demonstrates, we clearly shouldn't use the glyphs from the font. Arthur [-- Attachment #2: frenchpunctuation.pdf --] [-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 15357 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: frenchpunctuation.tex --] [-- Type: application/x-tex, Size: 852 bytes --] [-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 22:58 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users Le 22/05/2009 17:51, Arthur Reutenauer a écrit : >> but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em >> before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp >> (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. > > I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue > and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all > inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of > U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with > its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been > the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode > spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while > respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable > spaces, for instance. > Not knowing the internals, that's what I tried to say with adding a space after instead of 1em, i.e. "calculated by the engine". If w an em is added after, it is not stretchable and shrinkable, right? > In addition, characters like U+202F are very badly supported across > fonts, and if you take in account the fact that the most appropriate > width will probably change depending on the language, you're likely to > observe much more arbitrary results if you use the glyph for that > character in font. I seriously doubt you want to rely on the font for > that. > >> Why? Let me take your example again: >> >> {\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]a? aa? aaa? abba?} >> >> a\,? aa\,? aaa\,? abba\,? >> >> Surprise: the first line is longer than the second. It's because sizes of >> the U+0020 and U+202F depend on the font design, their size are not exactly >> 1em and 0.25em. > > That's not the reason. The reason is simply that \, is defined as a > \kern by one sixth of an em (see core-spa.mkiv: it's equivalent to > \thinspace, which is \kern .16667em). In the first line, the value of > .25em is defined in core-spa.mkiv; you can redefine it if you want. > In any case, every space is completely controlled by ConTeXt, we don't > let the font mess around. > > For that matter, Latin Modern doesn't have a glyph for U+202F, so if > we'd use it, we'd just see nothing: there would be no space at all, see > attached file. > Thank you so much for the detailed technical explanation! So, AFAIK, I believe that the space before should be equivalent to thinspace. > All this really calls for more coordination in order to produce decent > specifications, in my opinion. If you think ConTeXt's default should be > different, it's fine and I encourage you to contact Sébastien to discuss > about it. Report then to Hans and Peter for the implementation. > Thanks, I'll see that. Maybe I could write some detailled specs in the wiki. Regards, Bob. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 22:58 ` Arthur Reutenauer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2009-05-22 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users > Not knowing the internals, that's what I tried to say with adding a space > after instead of 1em, i.e. "calculated by the engine". If w an em is added > after, it is not stretchable and shrinkable, right? Right. But no particular space is added after '?' or '!' in French punctuation mode, TeX sets the standard inter-word glue, as it should. The only intervention by ConTeXt is the addition of the unbreakable space before those marks (and, obviously, after '«'). > Thank you so much for the detailed technical explanation! So, AFAIK, I > believe that the space before should be equivalent to thinspace. You'd need to take this up with Olivier Guéry, who suggested the 1/4 em value in the first place (refer to his interventions from last Fall, e.g., http://www.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2008/034845.html). He wrote up a small proposal on the wiki page for French Punctuation (http://wiki.contextgarden.net/French_Punctuation). > Thanks, I'll see that. Maybe I could write some detailled specs in the wiki. Yes, please do so by extending the aforementioned page if needed. Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 2009-05-22 17:06 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: luigi scarso @ 2009-05-22 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1080 bytes --] On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Arthur Reutenauer < arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote: > > but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em > > before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp > > (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. > > I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue > and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all > inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of > U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with > its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been > the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode > spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while > respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable > spaces, for instance. > Maybe one can use something like this \defineremapper[filterItem] \remapcharacter[filterItem][`•]{\item} for "spaces" too -- luigi [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1493 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: French typography is back 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso @ 2009-05-22 17:06 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-22 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users luigi scarso wrote: > On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Arthur Reutenauer < > arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote: > >>> but instead of arbitrary adding a 0.25em >>> before and 1em after the punctuation mark you should use the real nnbsp >>> (U+202F) before and real normal space (U+0020) after. >> I don't think so. Space characters don't mix very well with TeX glue >> and should best be avoided, generally speaking. In particular, all >> inter-word spaces that are input in the TeX source as one or more of >> U+0020 are simply ignored, and replaced by normal inter-word glue, with >> its appropriate stretchability and shrinkability. This has always been >> the case in TeX and is not going to change. All other types of Unicode >> spaces should really, in my opinion, be processed in the same way, while >> respecting their additional properties in the case of non-breakable >> spaces, for instance. >> > > Maybe one can use > something like this > \defineremapper[filterItem] > \remapcharacter[filterItem][`•]{\item} > > for "spaces" too as such a remapper is applied on all input eventually you end up in a mess and we don't want a mess ... the current mechanism acts upon the to be typeset text which is way more safe ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 12:44 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin @ 2009-05-27 4:34 ` Dohyun Kim 2009-05-27 8:11 ` Hans Hagen 2009-06-01 15:15 ` Khaled Hosny 1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dohyun Kim @ 2009-05-27 4:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users 2009/5/22 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>: > > > Hans Hagen wrote: >> Taco Hoekwater wrote: >>> >>> Khaled Hosny wrote: >>>> Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard >>>> italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font >>>> projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? >>> >>> That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then >>> luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which >>> also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). >> >> so, that data would end up in a regular feature/lookup? of is it an >> entry in the glyph? > > They are automatically merged into the glyph, as > > glyph.italic_correction > glyph.tex_height > glyph.tex_depth > Hi, Considering current state that we don't know any fonts that has ITLC table, it would be better than nothing to implement italic correction as follows. In the following code, "fontdata" is a table returned by the function "fonts.define.read". local param = fontdata.parameters local italicangle = fontdata.shared.otfdata.metadata.italicangle if italicangle and italicangle < 0 then local uwidth = fontdata.shared.otfdata.metadata.uwidth or 40 local factor = fontdata.factor or 655.36 param.slant = - math.tan(italicangle*math.pi/180) * param.quad for i,v in pairs(fontdata.characters) do local gl = fontdata.descriptions[i] local it = (gl.boundingbox[3] - gl.width + uwidth*0.5) * factor if it > 0 then v.italic = it end end end Best, Dohyun Kim ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-27 4:34 ` MkIV italic correction? Dohyun Kim @ 2009-05-27 8:11 ` Hans Hagen 2009-06-01 15:15 ` Khaled Hosny 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-05-27 8:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Dohyun Kim wrote: > Considering current state that we don't know any fonts that has ITLC table, > it would be better than nothing to implement italic correction as follows. > In the following code, "fontdata" is a table returned by the function > "fonts.define.read". > > local param = fontdata.parameters > local italicangle = fontdata.shared.otfdata.metadata.italicangle > if italicangle and italicangle < 0 then > local uwidth = fontdata.shared.otfdata.metadata.uwidth or 40 > local factor = fontdata.factor or 655.36 > param.slant = - math.tan(italicangle*math.pi/180) * param.quad > for i,v in pairs(fontdata.characters) do > local gl = fontdata.descriptions[i] > local it = (gl.boundingbox[3] - gl.width + uwidth*0.5) * factor > if it > 0 then v.italic = it end > end > end there are seleveral solutions: - extend the font with this info (faster but then it's always there which might not be ok as it's an approximation) - calculate it after loading (which is what you propose) in the mkiv code we do have a hook for that kind of things so this is then what i propose. watch how we don't scale here, we just add an entry to the shared data as that's where we hook in; the real implementation would look slightly different as an optimization is possible \starttext \startluacode table.insert(fonts.triggers,"itlc") local function itlc(tfmdata,value) if value then -- the magic 40 and it formula come from Dohyun Kim local fontdata = tfmdata.shared.otfdata or tfmdata.shared.afmdata local metadata = fontdata and fontdata.metadata if metadata then local italicangle = metadata.italicangle if italicangle and italicangle ~= 0 then local uwidth = (metadata.uwidth or 40)/2 for unicode, d in next, tfmdata.descriptions do local it = d.boundingbox[3] - d.width + uwidth if it ~= 0 then d.italic = it end end end end end end fonts.initializers.base.otf.itlc = itlc fonts.initializers.node.otf.itlc = itlc fonts.initializers.base.afm.itlc = itlc fonts.initializers.node.afm.itlc = itlc \stopluacode \definedfont[SerifItalic*default at 24pt] test\/test \definefontfeature[xdefault][default][itlc=yes] \definedfont[SerifItalic*xdefault at 24pt] test\/test \stoptext i could add it to the generic code (although i'm not going to add all the other context goodies to the generic code definitely not as long as they're experimental) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-05-27 4:34 ` MkIV italic correction? Dohyun Kim 2009-05-27 8:11 ` Hans Hagen @ 2009-06-01 15:15 ` Khaled Hosny 2009-06-01 20:19 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Khaled Hosny @ 2009-06-01 15:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1647 bytes --] On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 01:34:57PM +0900, Dohyun Kim wrote: > 2009/5/22 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>: > > > > > > Hans Hagen wrote: > >> Taco Hoekwater wrote: > >>> > >>> Khaled Hosny wrote: > >>>> Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard > >>>> italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font > >>>> projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? > >>> > >>> That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then > >>> luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which > >>> also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). > >> > >> so, that data would end up in a regular feature/lookup? of is it an > >> entry in the glyph? > > > > They are automatically merged into the glyph, as > > > > glyph.italic_correction > > glyph.tex_height > > glyph.tex_depth > > > > Hi, > > Considering current state that we don't know any fonts that has ITLC table, > it would be better than nothing to implement italic correction as follows. Per FontForge's documentation, it can generate italic correction values, may be LuaTeX could make use of such feature and provide a way to generate italic correction values for fonts missing it, may be the tex height and depth too, if it isn't doing so already? Since FontForge has access to actual glyph shapes, it might be generating better guesses. I can generate sample fonts with FontForge for testing, if needed. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer [-- Attachment #1.2: Digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: MkIV italic correction? 2009-06-01 15:15 ` Khaled Hosny @ 2009-06-01 20:19 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-06-01 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Khaled Hosny wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 01:34:57PM +0900, Dohyun Kim wrote: >> 2009/5/22 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>: >>> >>> Hans Hagen wrote: >>>> Taco Hoekwater wrote: >>>>> Khaled Hosny wrote: >>>>>> Not very helpful in this situation, but FontForge has a non-standard >>>>>> italic correction (ITLC) table[1], may be TeX related OpenTyp font >>>>>> projects like Latin Modern and Gyre fonts can use it? >>>>> That would perhaps not be a bad idea. If that table is there then >>>>> luatex will automatically use it (it is a subtable of 'TeX ', which >>>>> also contains height and depth information, and font dimensions). >>>> so, that data would end up in a regular feature/lookup? of is it an >>>> entry in the glyph? >>> They are automatically merged into the glyph, as >>> >>> glyph.italic_correction >>> glyph.tex_height >>> glyph.tex_depth >>> >> Hi, >> >> Considering current state that we don't know any fonts that has ITLC table, >> it would be better than nothing to implement italic correction as follows. > > Per FontForge's documentation, it can generate italic correction values, > may be LuaTeX could make use of such feature and provide a way to > generate italic correction values for fonts missing it, may be the tex > height and depth too, if it isn't doing so already? Since FontForge has > access to actual glyph shapes, it might be generating better guesses. > > I can generate sample fonts with FontForge for testing, if needed. as such an italic correction is not part of the font design but a guess it makes sense to keep it 'under lua control' so i implemented a itls=yes feature (base mode and node mode; is in beta) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-06-01 20:19 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-05-20 6:25 MkIV italic correction? Corsair 2009-05-20 7:21 ` Yue Wang 2009-05-20 7:37 ` Corsair 2009-05-21 9:55 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-21 11:55 ` Corsair 2009-05-21 11:59 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-21 13:36 ` Corsair 2009-05-22 9:15 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-21 13:20 ` Khaled Hosny 2009-05-22 9:25 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 10:48 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-22 11:23 ` Taco Hoekwater 2009-05-22 12:44 ` French typography is back Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 15:51 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:38 ` Robert-André Mauchin 2009-05-22 22:58 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2009-05-22 16:40 ` luigi scarso 2009-05-22 17:06 ` Hans Hagen 2009-05-27 4:34 ` MkIV italic correction? Dohyun Kim 2009-05-27 8:11 ` Hans Hagen 2009-06-01 15:15 ` Khaled Hosny 2009-06-01 20:19 ` Hans Hagen
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