Math setup with Times (Termes)

Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky]

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Hello Gurus,

Please, please, please! I need your help badly.

The problem is with math font setup. If I use default math font, two 
problems arise:

1) Greek letters are slanted, while they supposed by our standards to be 
straight.

2) Cyrillic does not work in math, while some indexes are in Ukrainian.

I also try to setup Times New Roman (from Windows) to replace default 
math font. This would be perfect solution for me, but I've lost completely.

For my current point, I found that my TimesNR typescript behaves just 
like Gyre-Termes, so you can experiment on the latter (without need of 
Windows). This is my minimal example (see attachment also):

\usetypescript[termes]\setupbodyfont[termes, 14pt]

\starttext

Така система рівнянь має вигляд:

$это мат. текст this this math text$

\startformula\left\{ \matrix{

2 = a \cdot {2^2} + b \cdot 2 + c; \hfill \cr

1 = a \cdot {3^2} + b \cdot 3 + c; \hfill \cr

2a \cdot 2 + b = 0. \hfill \cr} \right.\stopformula

Вирішуючи цю систему рівнянь, можна отримати

всі три коефіцієнти: $c = - 2$; $a = - 1$; $b = 4$.

\stoptext


The main problem is that Latin letters in math are not slanted at all! I 
only found that some tricky conversion is done by 
original-youngryu-tx.map , but it's far beyond my understanding to fix 
something in it.

Best regards,
Vyatcheslav








[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: 0.tex --]
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\usetypescript[termes]\setupbodyfont[termes, 14pt]

\starttext

Така система рівнянь має вигляд:

$это мат. текст      this this math text$

\startformula\left\{ \matrix{
  2 = a \cdot {2^2} + b \cdot 2 + c; \hfill \cr 
  1 = a \cdot {3^2} + b \cdot 3 + c; \hfill \cr 
  2a \cdot 2 + b = 0. \hfill \cr}  \right.\stopformula

Вирішуючи цю систему рівнянь, можна отримати
всі три коефіцієнти: $c =  - 2$; $a =  - 1$; $b = 4$.

\stoptext

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 08.11.2009 um 22:00 schrieb Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky:

> $это мат. текст this this math text$

$\text{...}$

Wolfgang

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Aditya Mahajan]

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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky wrote:

> 1) Greek letters are slanted, while they supposed by our standards to be 
> straight.

\usetypescript[termes]\setupbodyfont[termes, 14pt]
\startbuffer
$αβγ$
\stopbuffer

\starttext
\getbuffer

\setupmathematics[lcgreek=normal]\getbuffer
\stoptext

Aditya

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

2009/11/8 Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky:
>
> The problem is with math font setup. If I use default math font, two
> problems arise:
>
> 1) Greek letters are slanted, while they supposed by our standards to be
> straight.

Something like \mr could work in mkiv, but I don't think that it does.
(But should be easy to fix.)

> 2) Cyrillic does not work in math,

How do you expect it to work? Just return italic cyrilic letters?
Maybe Taco knows it better - do "any letters from the font" need to
have extra parameters to be usable with math? You can of course use
   $\text{\it some cyrilic here}$
at any time.

> while some indexes are in Ukrainian.
>
> I also try to setup Times New Roman (from Windows) to replace default math
> font. This would be perfect solution for me, but I've lost completely.
>
> For my current point, I found that my TimesNR typescript behaves just like
> Gyre-Termes, so you can experiment on the latter (without need of Windows).
> This is my minimal example (see attachment also):
>
> \usetypescript[termes]\setupbodyfont[termes, 14pt]
> \starttext
> $this this math text$
> \stoptext
>
> The main problem is that Latin letters in math are not slanted at all! I
> only found that some tricky conversion is done by original-youngryu-tx.map ,

I don't if this file is used in mkiv, but then I'm not sure how these
tfm files work without map files at all.

> but it's far beyond my understanding to fix something in it.

There is one line that definitely needs to be fixed, but I have no idea how.

Here:

mathematics.make_font ( "tx-math", {
    { name = "texgyretermes-regular.otf", features = "virtualmath",
main = true },
    { name = "rtxr.tfm", vector = "tex-mr" } ,

this line:
    { name = "rtxmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
might need to become:
    { name = "txmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },

    { name = "txsy.tfm", vector = "tex-sy", skewchar=0x30, parameters = true } ,
    { name = "txex.tfm", vector = "tex-ex", extension = true } ,
    { name = "txsya.tfm", vector = "tex-ma" },
    { name = "txsyb.tfm", vector = "tex-mb" },
} )

But if I change that then nothing happens. Maybe the reason is that
MKIV does not read map files and consequently has no idea what to do
with txmi(.tfm) that comes from rtxmi.pfb, or at least one would need
to rewrite "tex-mi" for times.

I don't know yet how to do it (I don't know how luatex reads in pfb
files with characters with non-standard names). This support is
definitely missing from the ConTeXt core and needs both a tiny help
from Hans' hands and someone writing a vector (or some other trick to
make the original tfm file work).

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 19:10, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
> this line:
>    { name = "rtxmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
> might need to become:
>    { name = "txmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },

This seems to be using txmi.vf (and .tmf) in mkii (I suspect that, I'm
not 100% sure).

I have no idea whether Hans has already implemented reading the
original vf fonts in ConTeXt. I suspect that we need to figure out how
exactly those tx fonts work (what slot maps to what glyph in what
font).

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 19:10, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> this line:
>>    { name = "rtxmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
>> might need to become:
>>    { name = "txmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
> 
> This seems to be using txmi.vf (and .tmf) in mkii (I suspect that, I'm
> not 100% sure).
> 
> I have no idea whether Hans has already implemented reading the
> original vf fonts in ConTeXt. I suspect that we need to figure out how
> exactly those tx fonts work (what slot maps to what glyph in what
> font).

mkiv will read vf metrics when asked for, but as tx/px is close to 
default i didn't bother looking at it in too much detail

if someone wants more complete support .. he/she has to contribute the 
right vectors (in the case of these fonts, i prefer to stay very close 
to the raw font files, i.e. no vf because then we know what we're 
dealing with)

Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 09:38, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 19:10, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>>
>>> this line:
>>>   { name = "rtxmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
>>> might need to become:
>>>   { name = "txmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
>>
>> This seems to be using txmi.vf (and .tmf) in mkii (I suspect that, I'm
>> not 100% sure).
>>
>> I have no idea whether Hans has already implemented reading the
>> original vf fonts in ConTeXt. I suspect that we need to figure out how
>> exactly those tx fonts work (what slot maps to what glyph in what
>> font).
>
> mkiv will read vf metrics when asked for, but as tx/px is close to default i
> didn't bother looking at it in too much detail

It is close to default, but it uses some vf fonts with all the glyphs
on standard places. On the other hand Polish fonts use just normal
tfm/pfb files.

> if someone wants more complete support .. he/she has to contribute the right
> vectors (in the case of these fonts, i prefer to stay very close to the raw
> font files, i.e. no vf because then we know what we're dealing with)

No vf is fine, but ... can mkiv (at least in theory) read vf files?

How does one disassemble vf files otherwise? vftosomething? I have
absolutely no idea what's in there. If mkiv can read vf, I would at
least cheat in such a way that I would read the font with mkiv, print
out the contents (what slot points to what place) and then rearrange
the contents in some more primitive format that mkiv could be
interpreting in the same way as all the other math fonts.

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[luigi scarso]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Mojca Miklavec
<mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 09:38, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 19:10, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>>>
>>>> this line:
>>>>   { name = "rtxmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
>>>> might need to become:
>>>>   { name = "txmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
>>>
>>> This seems to be using txmi.vf (and .tmf) in mkii (I suspect that, I'm
>>> not 100% sure).
>>>
>>> I have no idea whether Hans has already implemented reading the
>>> original vf fonts in ConTeXt. I suspect that we need to figure out how
>>> exactly those tx fonts work (what slot maps to what glyph in what
>>> font).
>>
>> mkiv will read vf metrics when asked for, but as tx/px is close to default i
>> didn't bother looking at it in too much detail
>
> It is close to default, but it uses some vf fonts with all the glyphs
> on standard places. On the other hand Polish fonts use just normal
> tfm/pfb files.
>
>> if someone wants more complete support .. he/she has to contribute the right
>> vectors (in the case of these fonts, i prefer to stay very close to the raw
>> font files, i.e. no vf because then we know what we're dealing with)
>
> No vf is fine, but ... can mkiv (at least in theory) read vf files?
>
> How does one disassemble vf files otherwise? vftosomething?

root@john:/opt/TeXLive2008/texlive/2008/bin/i386-linux# ./vftovp --help

Usage: vftovp [OPTION]... VFNAME[.vf] [TFMNAME[.tfm] [VPLFILE[.vpl]]]
  Translate VFNAME and companion TFMNAME to human-readable
  virtual property list file VPLFILE or standard output.
  If TFMNAME is not specified, VFNAME (with `.vf' removed) is used.

-charcode-format=TYPE  output character codes according to TYPE,
                       either `octal' or `ascii'; default is ascii for
                        letters and digits, octal for all else
-help                   display this help and exit
-verbose               display progress reports
-version               output version information and exit

Email bug reports to tex-k@mail.tug.org.

-- 
luigi
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Martin Schröder]

2009/11/11 luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>:
> Usage: vftovp [OPTION]... VFNAME[.vf] [TFMNAME[.tfm] [VPLFILE[.vpl]]]

Indeed. See texmf-dist/doc/generic/knuth/etc/vftovp.pdf :-)

Best
   Martin
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Aditya Mahajan]

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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 09:38, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 19:10, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>>>
>>>> this line:
>>>>   { name = "rtxmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
>>>> might need to become:
>>>>   { name = "txmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
>>>
>>> This seems to be using txmi.vf (and .tmf) in mkii (I suspect that, I'm
>>> not 100% sure).
>>>
>>> I have no idea whether Hans has already implemented reading the
>>> original vf fonts in ConTeXt. I suspect that we need to figure out how
>>> exactly those tx fonts work (what slot maps to what glyph in what
>>> font).
>>
>> mkiv will read vf metrics when asked for, but as tx/px is close to default i
>> didn't bother looking at it in too much detail
>
> It is close to default, but it uses some vf fonts with all the glyphs
> on standard places. On the other hand Polish fonts use just normal
> tfm/pfb files.

Since now there are opentype math fonts that compatible with times and 
palatino (xits and asana), can we use them as defaults in mkiv. That will 
make things much simpler.

Aditya

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 16:21, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>
> Since now there are opentype math fonts that compatible with times and
> palatino (xits and asana), can we use them as defaults in mkiv. That will
> make things much simpler.

This is definitely true (there is also Termes Math planned, I guess),
but then it would be nice to support px properly as well. I'm ready to
fix the vectors, but I need to figure out what's in those virtual
fonts first. (I'll try to test the vftothatweirdformat unless mkiv can
return me something more readable :)

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 16:21, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>> Since now there are opentype math fonts that compatible with times and
>> palatino (xits and asana), can we use them as defaults in mkiv. That will
>> make things much simpler.
> 
> This is definitely true (there is also Termes Math planned, I guess),
> but then it would be nice to support px properly as well. I'm ready to
> fix the vectors, but I need to figure out what's in those virtual
> fonts first. (I'll try to test the vftothatweirdformat unless mkiv can
> return me something more readable :)


just: \font\test=<filename>.tfm  \test

\dorecurse{255}{\recurselevel: \char\recurselevel\par}




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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 16:54, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>> This is definitely true (there is also Termes Math planned, I guess),
>> but then it would be nice to support px properly as well. I'm ready to
>> fix the vectors, but I need to figure out what's in those virtual
>> fonts first. (I'll try to test the vftothatweirdformat unless mkiv can
>> return me something more readable :)
>
>
> just: \font\test=<filename>.tfm  \test
>
> \dorecurse{255}{\recurselevel: \char\recurselevel\par}

With \font\test=txmi.tfm \test I get just empty pages and .vf doesn't
work at all.

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 11.11.2009 um 17:02 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 16:54, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> 
>>> This is definitely true (there is also Termes Math planned, I guess),
>>> but then it would be nice to support px properly as well. I'm ready to
>>> fix the vectors, but I need to figure out what's in those virtual
>>> fonts first. (I'll try to test the vftothatweirdformat unless mkiv can
>>> return me something more readable :)
>> 
>> just: \font\test=<filename>.tfm  \test
>> 
>> \dorecurse{255}{\recurselevel: \char\recurselevel\par}
> 
> With \font\test=txmi.tfm \test I get just empty pages and .vf doesn't
> work at all.

Load the map file: \loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]

Wolfgang

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 17:06, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 11.11.2009 um 17:02 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 16:54, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>
>>> just: \font\test=<filename>.tfm  \test
>>>
>>> \dorecurse{255}{\recurselevel: \char\recurselevel\par}
>>
>> With \font\test=txmi.tfm \test I get just empty pages and .vf doesn't
>> work at all.
>
> Load the map file: \loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]

Does that work for you (it doesn't here, but as I said ... I have very
bad karma).
txmi is not in that map file since txmi.vf is used instead.

But at least the vf file is almost-readable.

(MAPFONT D 0
   (FONTNAME rtxmi)
(MAPFONT D 1
   (FONTNAME rtxptmri)

% this is probably character number 136 in octal basis
% and the glyph comes from font 0 (rtxmi)
(CHARACTER O 136
   (CHARWD R 0.964)
   (CHARHT R 0.342)
   (MAP
      (SELECTFONT D 0)
      (SETCHAR O 136)
      )
   )

% this seems to be letter a comming from font 1 (rtxptmri)
(CHARACTER C a
   (CHARWD R 0.5)
   (CHARHT R 0.442)
   (CHARDP R 0.0075)
   (MAP
      (SELECTFONT D 1)
      (SETCHAR C a)
      )
   )


On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 17:13, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> This is definitely true (there is also Termes Math planned, I guess),
>> but then it would be nice to support px properly as well. I'm ready to
>> fix the vectors, but I need to figure out what's in those virtual
>> fonts first. (I'll try to test the vftothatweirdformat unless mkiv can
>
> hey, it's a brilliant and beautiful hack, not weird

What are we talking about? Do you mean the old virtual fonts (.vf
files) or mkiv's virtual fonts or something completely different?

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 11.11.2009 um 17:37 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

>> Load the map file: \loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]
> 
> Does that work for you (it doesn't here, but as I said ... I have very bad karma).
> txmi is not in that map file since txmi.vf is used instead.


Then use a font which is in the map file and has also a font with the same name.

\loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]

%\font\test=txmia.tfm
\font\test=rtxmi.tfm

\dorecurse{255}{\recurselevel: {\test\char\recurselevel}\par}

\bye

Wolfgang

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 17:57, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>
> Am 11.11.2009 um 17:37 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:
>
>>> Load the map file: \loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]
>>
>> Does that work for you (it doesn't here, but as I said ... I have very bad karma).
>> txmi is not in that map file since txmi.vf is used instead.
>
> Then use a font which is in the map file and has also a font with the same name.
>
> \loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]
>
> %\font\test=txmia.tfm
> \font\test=rtxmi.tfm

Buth that this is not the font that I want. I want txmi (italic), not
rtxmi (regular), so it doesn't really help me to load rtxmi. (More in
reply to Hans' mail.)

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 17:57, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>> Am 11.11.2009 um 17:37 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:
>>
>>>> Load the map file: \loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]
>>> Does that work for you (it doesn't here, but as I said ... I have very bad karma).
>>> txmi is not in that map file since txmi.vf is used instead.
>> Then use a font which is in the map file and has also a font with the same name.
>>
>> \loadmapfile[original-youngryu-tx.map]
>>
>> %\font\test=txmia.tfm
>> \font\test=rtxmi.tfm
> 
> Buth that this is not the font that I want. I want txmi (italic), not
> rtxmi (regular), so it doesn't really help me to load rtxmi. (More in
> reply to Hans' mail.)

we first should locate the (non vf) files that really matter, i.e. we 
can forget about text fonts

Hans


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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:41, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
> we first should locate the (non vf) files that really matter, i.e. we can
> forget about text fonts

In this particular file it says:

(MAPFONT D 0
  (FONTNAME rtxmi)
(MAPFONT D 1
  (FONTNAME rtxptmri) -> we map that one to TeXGyreTermes-Italic in mkii

One of them is italic text, one of them is a subset of math
characters, but I need to do a simple text transform to list which
character comes from which font.

But the weird thing is that tex-mi doesn't seem to come from mi font,
but from italic part of the main font (at least all the entries in
math-vfu in tex-mi mapping are commented out and there is
fonts.vf.math.set_letters(fonts.enc.math, "tex-mi", 0x1D434,
0x1D44E)). So I'm really a bit puzzled. Is some "italic mapping"
missing in termes setup?

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

Hans,

When does the mapping to 0x1D44E happen for LM and Termes in mkiv?
(= MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL A)

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 13:44, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Hans,
>
> When does the mapping to 0x1D44E happen for LM and Termes in mkiv?
> (= MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL A)

Oh, I see it now. At this point:
    fonts.vf.math.set_letters(fonts.enc.math, "tex-mi", 0x1D434, 0x1D44E)
the letters from tex-mi are copied to math italic, but in case of
txfonts and the chosen subset of glyphs this region is empty, so
ConTeXt most probably just falls back to "normal a" from the main
regular font, but those characters should come from the italic font
instead (I don't know if additional metrics are needed or not).

I tried to do the following for example:

fonts.enc.math["tex-mi2"] = {
}
-- now that all other vectors are defined ...
fonts.vf.math.set_letters(fonts.enc.math, "tex-mi", 0x1D434, 0x1D44E)
fonts.vf.math.set_letters(fonts.enc.math, "tex-mi2", 0x1D434, 0x1D44E)

mathematics.make_font ( "tx-math", {
    { name = "texgyretermes-regular.otf", features = "virtualmath",
main = true },
    { name = "rtxr.tfm", vector = "tex-mr" } ,
    { name = "rtxmi.tfm", vector = "tex-mi", skewchar=0x7F },
    { name = "texgyretermes-italic.otf", vector = "tex-mi2", skewchar=0x7F },
    { name = "txsy.tfm", vector = "tex-sy", skewchar=0x30, parameters = true } ,
    { name = "txex.tfm", vector = "tex-ex", extension = true } ,
    { name = "txsya.tfm", vector = "tex-ma" },
    { name = "txsyb.tfm", vector = "tex-mb" },
} )

I now get italic math (but roman h for example). So this needs to be
fixed a bit, but it's the right direction at least. (Though it might
be better to use generic names like "regular" or "italic" for name= in
case that users try to use some other times-like base font for
example.)

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 12.11.2009 um 14:45 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

> I now get italic math (but roman h for example).

The 'h' is always upright because there is a bug in math-vfu
and get the 'plant constant' instead of a normal h.

Wolfgang

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 16:12, Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky wrote:
> Hell dear Mojca,
>
> Let me mention one thing, while it is not too late )
>
> I use not Termes, but standard Window Times New Roman.
>
> And I'd prefer italic latin letters to be taken from it, not from Termes.

That's why I mentioned that it might be nice to have "italic" and
"roman" as names in math typescripts (math-vfu.lua) for exactly such
cases.

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> What are we talking about? Do you mean the old virtual fonts (.vf
> files) or mkiv's virtual fonts or something completely different?

What You Don't Want To Know:

a virtual font is just a regular font but has references to other fonts 
instead, like

char 1 -> font x, char 10 (or dvi commands instead)

and then it can has kerning etc within its own set

tex itself only sees characters as things with dimensions and a few 
properties and when typesetting the paragraph uses info from the font 
with respect to kerning and ligature building

now, traditional tex has only tfm files and when virtual fonts were 
introduced the engine was not adapted at all; so, a virtual font still 
has a tfm file (with characters etc)

however, when the font is being used in the backend, an extra lookup 
takes place and when a vf file is found, information from that file is 
used for embedding (in pdftex); of course dvi postprocessors also look 
at that file

so we have:

tfm      -> tfm used by frontend and backend
tfm + vf -> tfm used by frontend, vf used by backend

on top of that a map file will point from fontname to real name (pfb) 
and this is why in a map file you don't see the virtual font names at 
all, as it's the names inside the vf that matter

so say that we have:

a.tfm + a.vf

but internally

a.vf -> font b, c, d (or further chained)

then b, c, d need to be resolved to real names

as there is no checking going on and as the tfm file has no info about 
itself being virtual you can imagine that interesting side effects can 
take place when an old (unknown of) vf lays around ... it will kick in 
at backend time (this is why the texfont script does a clean up)

in luatex we have integrated these mechanisms, so internally a font can 
have virtual properties (a few more than original tex)

however, by default luatex acts like tex, so users won't notice; as 
luatex has the backend integrated, at some point it will need the vf and 
mkiv will happily fulfill that request

but ... and this is the catch ... in mkiv we use (1) opentype, (2) type 
1 and (3) traditional tex fonts

(1) is not related to virtual fonts but we can (and do) extend fonts 
internally using virtual technology

(2) in pdftex tfm/vf files are used but mkiv does not look at those 
files but uses afm files directly (right from the start)

(3) the only place in mkiv where tex metric files are still used is in 
math as we need the additional (math specific) info

as it makes no sense to keep supporting the old math fonts while open 
type variant sare under way, i decided to stick to unicode math and as a 
result we need to use virtual font technology to make that unicode variant

for the lm fonts, this is mostly done and as they have no virtual (vf 
based) fonts it's transparent

for tx/px however, as they use virtual fonts, it gets hairy what file to 
load; technically there is no obstacle but i've chosen to stay away from 
the tfm/vf mess and use just the natural tfm variants (i.e. the ones 
that match the pfb) and therefore we might need a few extra vectors (and 
maybe font files) in math-vfu that map to the right slots; using the 
vf's as well would complicate matters and it's not worth the trouble

so, what we need to do is to figure out teh few missing files/vectors, 
add them, and then let users fill in the gaps in vectors

are you still there?

Hans

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:42, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> What are we talking about? Do you mean the old virtual fonts (.vf
>> files) or mkiv's virtual fonts or something completely different?
>
> What You Don't Want To Know:
>
> a virtual font is just a regular font but has references to other fonts
> instead, like
>
> char 1 -> font x, char 10 (or dvi commands instead)
>
> and then it can has kerning etc within its own set

I understand that, but I don't know how important is "its own kerning
and metrics". That is: I'm not sure if vf changes or adds some
properties that are not present in original tfm files.

> for tx/px however, as they use virtual fonts, it gets hairy what file to
> load; technically there is no obstacle but i've chosen to stay away from the
> tfm/vf mess and use just the natural tfm variants (i.e. the ones that match
> the pfb) and therefore we might need a few extra vectors (and maybe font
> files) in math-vfu that map to the right slots; using the vf's as well would
> complicate matters and it's not worth the trouble
>
> so, what we need to do is to figure out teh few missing files/vectors, add
> them, and then let users fill in the gaps in vectors

I would say that what we need to do is "parse" the vf file (using
vftothatweirdformat) and copy its contents to math-vfu. At least this
can be done automatically and reliably without having to figure out
what character comes where for dozens of fonts.

It could probably also be done in mkiv, dumped into table and then
that table could be copy-pasted into math-vfu and vf files could be
forgotten. But I'm not sure that I know where to start with that
(probably cleaner & easier) approach, so I can try the first option.

Mojca
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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> I understand that, but I don't know how important is "its own kerning
> and metrics". That is: I'm not sure if vf changes or adds some
> properties that are not present in original tfm files.

we use a regular termes as base font so that comes with kerning, marh 
characters seldom have kerning (a few have special puspose kerns)

> I would say that what we need to do is "parse" the vf file (using
> vftothatweirdformat) and copy its contents to math-vfu. At least this
> can be done automatically and reliably without having to figure out
> what character comes where for dozens of fonts.

i dunno. these chars have no proper names and unicode points

also, i think that most chars are just in tex's default mapping and 
maybe a few aren't (for instance the upright range can simply be mapped 
once we know in what font they are)

Hans

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 16:21, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>> Since now there are opentype math fonts that compatible with times and
>> palatino (xits and asana), can we use them as defaults in mkiv. That will
>> make things much simpler.
> 
> This is definitely true (there is also Termes Math planned, I guess),
> but then it would be nice to support px properly as well. I'm ready to
> fix the vectors, but I need to figure out what's in those virtual
> fonts first. (I'll try to test the vftothatweirdformat unless mkiv can

hey, it's a brilliant and beautiful hack, not weird

> return me something more readable :)

depends .. eventually termes and palladio will have matching math and 
px/tx are close to that so we'd better have extra typeface defs then


Hans

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Bernhard Rosensteiner]

Hello,

\definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), text=figure]

don`t produce any output of text (in this case "figure") when i reference to it. Is this a known bug in mkiv or do i something wrong?

best regards
Bernhard

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definereferenceformat problem...

[Bernhard Rosensteiner]

Hello,

\definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), label=reffigure, text={figure}]

produces no output of text (in this case "figure") when i do \fig[something]. Is this a bug in mkiv? I use luatex 0.44

best regards
Bernhard
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Re: definereferenceformat problem...

[Chen Shen]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 972 bytes --]

I have the same problem with the latest mkiv beta (2009.11.25).
left/right works fine, but text does not.

regards,
shenchen

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:26 AM, Bernhard Rosensteiner <
brosensteiner@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> \definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), label=reffigure,
> text={figure}]
>
> produces no output of text (in this case "figure") when i do
> \fig[something]. Is this a bug in mkiv? I use luatex 0.44
>
> best regards
> Bernhard
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: definereferenceformat problem...

[Chen Shen]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1222 bytes --]

Hi all,

I wonder whether this issue with text in \definereferenceformat is a bug, or
if I missed something. Thanks a lot.

shenchen

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Chen Shen <hashhsah@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have the same problem with the latest mkiv beta (2009.11.25).
> left/right works fine, but text does not.
>
> regards,
> shenchen
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:26 AM, Bernhard Rosensteiner <
> brosensteiner@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> \definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), label=reffigure,
>> text={figure}]
>>
>> produces no output of text (in this case "figure") when i do
>> \fig[something]. Is this a bug in mkiv? I use luatex 0.44
>>
>> best regards
>> Bernhard
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>
>

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Re: definereferenceformat problem...

[Peter Münster]

On Wed, Nov 11 2009, Bernhard Rosensteiner wrote:
> 
> \definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), label=reffigure, text={figure}]
> 
> produces no output of text (in this case "figure") when i do
> \fig[something]. Is this a bug in mkiv? I use luatex 0.44

A workaround:

\definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), label=reffigure]
\setuplabeltext[en][reffigure=figure]
\starttext
\placefigure[][something]{bla}{bla}
\fig[something]
\stoptext

Cheers, Peter

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Re: definereferenceformat problem...

[Chen Shen]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1211 bytes --]

Thanks a lot Peter

shenchen

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 11 2009, Bernhard Rosensteiner wrote:
> >
> > \definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), label=reffigure,
> text={figure}]
> >
> > produces no output of text (in this case "figure") when i do
> > \fig[something]. Is this a bug in mkiv? I use luatex 0.44
>
> A workaround:
>
> \definereferenceformat[fig][left=(, right=), label=reffigure]
> \setuplabeltext[en][reffigure=figure]
> \starttext
> \placefigure[][something]{bla}{bla}
> \fig[something]
> \stoptext
>
> Cheers, Peter
>
> --
> Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> No vf is fine, but ... can mkiv (at least in theory) read vf files?

sure, has always been there btw; just grep for vf -)

> How does one disassemble vf files otherwise? vftosomething? I have
> absolutely no idea what's in there. If mkiv can read vf, I would at
> least cheat in such a way that I would read the font with mkiv, print
> out the contents (what slot points to what place) and then rearrange
> the contents in some more primitive format that mkiv could be
> interpreting in the same way as all the other math fonts.

no fun ...

Hans

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Re: Math setup with Times (Termes)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 16:37, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> No vf is fine, but ... can mkiv (at least in theory) read vf files?
>
> sure, has always been there btw; just grep for vf -)

OK.

>> How does one disassemble vf files otherwise? vftosomething? I have
>> absolutely no idea what's in there. If mkiv can read vf, I would at
>> least cheat in such a way that I would read the font with mkiv, print
>> out the contents (what slot points to what place) and then rearrange
>> the contents in some more primitive format that mkiv could be
>> interpreting in the same way as all the other math fonts.
>
> no fun ...

There are some kerning pairs in that vf file. Do they play any role at
all? (Just testing vftovp.)

Mojca
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Itemize withing description

[Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1076 bytes --]

Hello,

Another tricky question. I have "Review Questions" at the end of each 
section. There are only questions inside, and they are enumerated.

I felt natural to implement it as description. Going further, I added 
\startitemize and \stopitemize inside the description definition. Then 
my code looks neatly, but one annoying problem persist. Whatever I do, I 
cannot get blank space between description caption (text) and the items. 
I manage to have it before the block, after it, but not inbetween.

Here is my minimal example that shows clearly that big skip disappears 
(there is a problem with indenting too, but that's another problem):


\setupitemize[each][1,packed,nowhite,text]

\definedescription[reviewquestions][location=serried, text={Review 
questions}, before={\blank[small]\startitemize}, 
inbetween={\blank[big]}, after={\stopitemize\blank[small]}]

\starttext

The section ends here.

\startreviewquestions

\item Question 1

\item Question 2

\item Question 3

\stopreviewquestions

The next section starts here.
\stoptext



Best regards,
Vyatcheslav

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: descripton-itemize-test.tex --]
[-- Type: text/x-tex; name="descripton-itemize-test.tex", Size: 416 bytes --]

\setupitemize[each][1,packed,nowhite,text]

\definedescription[reviewquestions][location=serried, text={Review questions}, before={\blank[small]\startitemize}, inbetween={\blank[big]}, after={\stopitemize\blank[small]}]

\starttext

The section ends here.

\startreviewquestions

\item Question 1

\item Question 2

\item Question 3

\stopreviewquestions

The next section starts here.

\stoptext

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]

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Re: Itemize withing description

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Another tricky question. I have "Review Questions" at the end of each 
> section. There are only questions inside, and they are enumerated.
>
> I felt natural to implement it as description. Going further, I added 
> \startitemize and \stopitemize inside the description definition. Then my 
> code looks neatly, but one annoying problem persist. Whatever I do, I cannot 
> get blank space between description caption (text) and the items. I manage to 
> have it before the block, after it, but not inbetween.
>
> Here is my minimal example that shows clearly that big skip disappears (there 
> is a problem with indenting too, but that's another problem):
>
>
> \setupitemize[each][1,packed,nowhite,text]
>
> \definedescription[reviewquestions][location=serried, text={Review

Change location=serried to location=top. Serried ignores the inbetween 
option as it does not make sense with serried.

Aditya

> questions}, before={\blank[small]\startitemize}, inbetween={\blank[big]}, 
> after={\stopitemize\blank[small]}]
>
> \starttext
>
> The section ends here.
>
> \startreviewquestions
>
> \item Question 1
>
> \item Question 2
>
> \item Question 3
>
> \stopreviewquestions
>
> The next section starts here.
> \stoptext
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Vyatcheslav
>
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