Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Manuel P.]

ConTeXt is a good software. I was impressed with a manual typesetted 
with it and decided to give it a try. After some small documents, 
despite my ridicously small knowledge of it I decided to use ConTeXt for 
my thesis. Bad move.

ConTeXt is beautiful because it's very configurable, for the most uses 
doesn't need any external module (unlike LaTeX), and gives me more power 
on the presentation of the document. But in a few days of work I've come 
to realize that it's not suited for me and this project.

I've had some unpleasant surprises:
- Bibliography doesn't work the way it should on MKIV. Unlike MKII.
- MKIV, unlike MKII, doesn't setup any background color:

----
\setupcolors[state=start]
\setupbackground[background=screen]
\setupbackground[state=start]
\def\quotebox#1#2
     {\blank
     \midaligned{\startbackground
     \quotation{\em #1} \crlf --#2
     \stopbackground}
     \blank}
----

- the above \quotebox command, in some cases, sends pdftex and luatex 
(MKII and MKIV) to the moon with an infinite loop (100% CPU).

One reason for this is probably my very limited knowledge and experience 
with ConTeXt. It's extremely configurable, and this is a plus. But on 
the other hand if you don't know how to move, what to do, the system 
internals and how any configuration affect the typesetting, a lot of 
thing won't work. And worse, you won't know where to bump your head. I 
don't have time to read the reference manual (I've already read the 
excursion) because the deadline is too near, so I have to call defeat 
and go to the LaTeX camp. I've wasted days of work, now I can't afford 
more of that.

It's a learning experience: don't use an "experimental" (new for me) 
tool for an important job. Stick to the tried&tested ones, and use new 
stuff only in a safe context (without a near hard deadline).

Maybe, in some future, I'll take again ConTeXt and try to learn it the 
proper way. But for now, it's "fired".

For your patience, time and help: thanks to all of you!

A little wish: I hope that when I'll return here there'll be good 
documentation (user-oriented) and a single (througly tested, see TDD/BDD 
approaches) reference implementation.

-- 
Manuel P.

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 27.12.2009 um 16:54 schrieb Manuel P.:

> ConTeXt is a good software. I was impressed with a manual typesetted with it and decided to give it a try. After some small documents, despite my ridicously small knowledge of it I decided to use ConTeXt for my thesis. Bad move.
> 
> ConTeXt is beautiful because it's very configurable, for the most uses doesn't need any external module (unlike LaTeX), and gives me more power on the presentation of the document. But in a few days of work I've come to realize that it's not suited for me and this project.
> 
> I've had some unpleasant surprises:
> - Bibliography doesn't work the way it should on MKIV. Unlike MKII.
> - MKIV, unlike MKII, doesn't setup any background color:

You're wrong, MkIV supports colors by default while you have to enable it in MkII by yourself
for backwards compatibilities. The screen value for the background key could be used to set
a gray background where you could change the gray value with the backgroundscreen key but real
colored backgrounds are set with 'background=color,backgroundcolor=...'. In MkIV Hans made the
decision to break sometimes backward compatibility and one result of this was that background=color
is no longer supported because you could use backgroundcolor.

> ----
> \setupcolors[state=start]
> \setupbackground[background=screen]
> \setupbackground[state=start]
> \def\quotebox#1#2
>    {\blank
>    \midaligned{\startbackground
>    \quotation{\em #1} \crlf --#2
>    \stopbackground}
>    \blank}
> ----
> 
> - the above \quotebox command, in some cases, sends pdftex and luatex (MKII and MKIV) to the moon with an infinite loop (100% CPU).

I guess this is a result of your own definition of the \quotebox macro which expects a space
at the end of the command, you should write (untested) instead:

\define[2]\quotebox
  {\blank
   \startalignment[middle]
   \startbackground
   \quotation{\em#1}\crlf--#2
   \stopbackground
   \stopalignment
   \blank}

> One reason for this is probably my very limited knowledge and experience with ConTeXt. It's extremely configurable, and this is a plus. But on the other hand if you don't know how to move, what to do, the system internals and how any configuration affect the typesetting, a lot of thing won't work. And worse, you won't know where to bump your head. I don't have time to read the reference manual (I've already read the excursion) because the deadline is too near, so I have to call defeat and go to the LaTeX camp. I've wasted days of work, now I can't afford more of that.
> 
> It's a learning experience: don't use an "experimental" (new for me) tool for an important job. Stick to the tried&tested ones, and use new stuff only in a safe context (without a near hard deadline).
> 
> Maybe, in some future, I'll take again ConTeXt and try to learn it the proper way. But for now, it's "fired".
> 
> For your patience, time and help: thanks to all of you!


You should try to play a while with ConTeXt without such a strict and shirt timeline as you had it this time.

Best regards,
Wolfgang

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Peter Münster]

On Sun, Dec 27 2009, Manuel P. wrote:

> I've had some unpleasant surprises:
> - Bibliography doesn't work the way it should on MKIV. Unlike MKII.

Hello Manuel,

You mean perhaps the problem to get all entries in the bib-database, even
without citations. I don't have the solution, but I'm quite sure, that this
is trivial for guys like Taco and others.
There is at least one workaround: cite them all at some place in a 0-width
box with white color on white background.


> - MKIV, unlike MKII, doesn't setup any background color:
>
> ----
> \setupcolors[state=start]

Not needed in MKIV.

> \setupbackground[background=screen]

No more supported in MKIV, use
\setupbackground[background=color, backgroundcolor=gray]
instead.

> \setupbackground[state=start]

I don't know if this is needed, seems to work without this line.

> \def\quotebox#1#2

You want perhaps a %-sign:
\def\quotebox#1#2%


> It's a learning experience: don't use an "experimental" (new for me) tool 
> for an important job. Stick to the tried&tested ones, and use new stuff 
> only in a safe context (without a near hard deadline).

Right, 2-3 weeks are really a short time for such task.

Cheers, Peter

-- 
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/


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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Hans Hagen]

On 27-12-2009 20:16, Peter Münster wrote:

> You mean perhaps the problem to get all entries in the bib-database, even
> without citations. I don't have the solution, but I'm quite sure, that this
> is trivial for guys like Taco and others.
> There is at least one workaround: cite them all at some place in a 0-width
> box with white color on white background.

actually, tge mkiv variant has more options (and Thomas has offered to 
update the manual when he has time);

with respect to filtering, you can use the same 'criterium' as for lists 
+ the 'cite' criterium

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Gour]

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On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:54:47 +0100
>>>>>> "Manuel" == "Manuel P." <ayeye.sysforge@gmail.com> wrote:

Manuel> A little wish: I hope that when I'll return here there'll be
Manuel> good documentation (user-oriented) 

What about the above part?

Atm, whatever I write is done using reST, but the day will come when
something should be typeset for nice PDF...so I wonder what is with the
plan to get, as Hans wrote some time ago: "taco and i are thinking
about a solution for providing printed manuals at some point". Is it
0.50 the right time for it or we still have to wait?

Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[R. Bastian]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:54:47 +0100
"Manuel P." <ayeye.sysforge@gmail.com> scribit:

> ConTeXt is a good software. I was impressed with a manual typesetted [...]
 
I also

> 
> ConTeXt is beautiful because it's very configurable, [...]
 
Yes

> 
> I've had some unpleasant surprises:
> - Bibliography doesn't work the way it should

It is not a good idea to use no-languages (TeX, LaTeX & friends) for
bibliography. Write the biblio and your source text
in your own format and use a true language 
(Python, C, Pascal, Python, ...) to translate the brute source (with refs) 
and the biblio base to a typesetter code (TeX or ConText).

The last days I had to edit Python-listings (my scores).
\starttyping ... \stoptyping. Fine! but there are no headers. But I need
headers. Not easy to understand \setupheads, \setupheaders \setupheader etc.
there are no examples given.

I re-tried reSt, asciidoc : ugly like Latex.

So I wrote a Python-script which reads the Python-score and writes a
plain tex file (merci Raymond Seroul et le "Petit livre de TeX" ;-).

Nevertheless, ConText beeing the best choice, I am volunteer to help
for _french_ (and german) wiki pages in the contextgarden.

[...]
> 
> -- 
> Manuel P.
> 


-- 
René Bastian
www.pythoneon.org
www.musiques-rb.org


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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Manuel P.]

Il 27/12/2009 19.41, Wolfgang Schuster ha scritto:
> You're wrong, MkIV supports colors by default while you have to enable it in MkII by yourself
> for backwards compatibilities. The screen value for the background key could be used to set
> a gray background where you could change the gray value with the backgroundscreen key but real
> colored backgrounds are set with 'background=color,backgroundcolor=...'. In MkIV Hans made the
> decision to break sometimes backward compatibility and one result of this was that background=color
> is no longer supported because you could use backgroundcolor.
>
>    

Yes, I'm wrong and I'm not surprised. I've said it clearly: I don't know 
ConTeXt as much as I need to use it correctly. Part of the problem is 
the documentation: it's difficult (for me) to navigate and know what 
works on what version, especially with very limited time to figure out 
everything.

Another "problem" is the "fluidity" of ConTeXt: it changes rapidly and 
the documentation is left behind. It's good because it responds very 
quickly to the real world and users needs, on the other hand it's bad 
because a new user has to be "in the club" for some time to figure out 
everything.

>> ----
>> \setupcolors[state=start]
>> \setupbackground[background=screen]
>> \setupbackground[state=start]
>> \def\quotebox#1#2
>>     {\blank
>>     \midaligned{\startbackground
>>     \quotation{\em #1} \crlf --#2
>>     \stopbackground}
>>     \blank}
>> ----
>>
>> - the above \quotebox command, in some cases, sends pdftex and luatex (MKII and MKIV) to the moon with an infinite loop (100% CPU).
>>      
> I guess this is a result of your own definition of the \quotebox macro which expects a space
> at the end of the command, you should write (untested) instead:
>
> \define[2]\quotebox
>    {\blank
>     \startalignment[middle]
>     \startbackground
>     \quotation{\em#1}\crlf--#2
>     \stopbackground
>     \stopalignment
>     \blank}
>
>    

A infinite loop with 100% cpu for some spaces? Well, I wasn't expecting 
this.

> You should try to play a while with ConTeXt without such a strict and shirt timeline as you had it this time.
>
> Best regards,
> Wolfgang
>    

You are perfectly right, I've picked the wrong choice given this 
specific context and requirements.

-- 
Manuel P.

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Manuel P.]

Il 27/12/2009 20.16, Peter Münster ha scritto:
> On Sun, Dec 27 2009, Manuel P. wrote:
>
>    
>> I've had some unpleasant surprises:
>> - Bibliography doesn't work the way it should on MKIV. Unlike MKII.
>>      
> Hello Manuel,
>
> You mean perhaps the problem to get all entries in the bib-database, even
> without citations. I don't have the solution, but I'm quite sure, that this
> is trivial for guys like Taco and others.
> There is at least one workaround: cite them all at some place in a 0-width
> box with white color on white background.
>
>
>    

Hi Peter,

Yes, Taco written that this is bug and will be resolved sometimes soon. 
The workaround that you suggest is surely functional, but I can't help 
feeling a bit uneasy about it.

>> \def\quotebox#1#2
>>      
> You want perhaps a %-sign:
> \def\quotebox#1#2%
>
>
>    

No, it doesn't work despite the %-sign. Sorry. Wolfgang Schuster 
proposed a solution (untested, I haven't tried it yet).

-- 
Manuel P.

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 02:44:20PM +0100, Manuel P. wrote:
> >>\def\quotebox#1#2
> >>    {\blank
> >>    \midaligned{\startbackground
> >>    \quotation{\em #1} \crlf --#2
> >>    \stopbackground}
> >>    \blank}
> >>----
> >>
> >>- the above \quotebox command, in some cases, sends pdftex and luatex (MKII and MKIV) to the moon with an infinite loop (100% CPU).
> >I guess this is a result of your own definition of the \quotebox macro which expects a space
> >at the end of the command, you should write (untested) instead:
> >
> >\define[2]\quotebox
> >   {\blank
> >    \startalignment[middle]
> >    \startbackground
> >    \quotation{\em#1}\crlf--#2
> >    \stopbackground
> >    \stopalignment
> >    \blank}
> >
> 
> A infinite loop with 100% cpu for some spaces? Well, I wasn't
> expecting this.

Well, that is how TeX works, not a ConTeXt issue here; your \quotebox
definition tells TeX to expect a space at the end of the macro, and it
was looking for it.

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Peter Münster]

On Mon, Dec 28 2009, Manuel P. wrote:

>>> \def\quotebox#1#2
>>>      
>> You want perhaps a %-sign:
>> \def\quotebox#1#2%
>>
> No, it doesn't work despite the %-sign. Sorry.

Strange... Could you post a minimal example please with hanging luatex (of
course only if you have some time for that)?
Cheers, Peter

-- 
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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Hans Hagen]

On 28-12-2009 14:44, Manuel P. wrote:

> Another "problem" is the "fluidity" of ConTeXt: it changes rapidly and
> the documentation is left behind. It's good because it responds very
> quickly to the real world and users needs, on the other hand it's bad
> because a new user has to be "in the club" for some time to figure out
> everything.

most of context (interface) is quite stable and hasn't changed in ages; 
however with luatex/mkiv we can move forward and do things that are 
impossible in good old tex but it's not neccessarily functionality that 
you need now (after all, we have been producing pretty complex docs with 
mkii and mkiv has hardly be touched the last years)

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[berend]

>>>>> "Manuel" == Manuel P <ayeye.sysforge@gmail.com> writes:

    Manuel> Another "problem" is the "fluidity" of ConTeXt: it changes
    Manuel> rapidly and the documentation is left behind.

Maybe for some things, but I'm using a manual from 2004 and from my
point of view very little has changed.

I would say the interface is remarkably stable, so hopefully that
might be some encouragement to come back one day.

-- 
Cheers,

Berend de Boer
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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Manuel P.]

Il 28/12/2009 18.59, Hans Hagen ha scritto:
> On 28-12-2009 14:44, Manuel P. wrote:
>
>> Another "problem" is the "fluidity" of ConTeXt: it changes rapidly and
>> the documentation is left behind. It's good because it responds very
>> quickly to the real world and users needs, on the other hand it's bad
>> because a new user has to be "in the club" for some time to figure out
>> everything.
>
> most of context (interface) is quite stable and hasn't changed in 
> ages; however with luatex/mkiv we can move forward and do things that 
> are impossible in good old tex but it's not neccessarily functionality 
> that you need now (after all, we have been producing pretty complex 
> docs with mkii and mkiv has hardly be touched the last years)
>
> Hans
>

Well, I'm using context for far too short time to know this. I was just 
saying what I've read around the internet, and since this is not the 
case: sorry! I'm simply too inexperienced :)

I've come to realize (as I was suspecting) that my problems comes mainly 
by my largely inadequate knowledge and experience with context. And this 
is fine and natural. My only wrong choice was picking context for my 
thesis (with a very near deadline) without knowing it sufficiently, not 
my interest in it.

So the message is: context is good and powerful, but not the best choice 
for this particular project since I don't know it so well. My choice and 
my error. Lesson learned: for important projects, stick with whatever 
you know well. Leave the experiments for free-time.

-- 
Manuel P.

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Manuel P.]

Il 29/12/2009 3.48, berend@pobox.com ha scritto:
>      Manuel>  Another "problem" is the "fluidity" of ConTeXt: it changes
>      Manuel>  rapidly and the documentation is left behind.
>
> Maybe for some things, but I'm using a manual from 2004 and from my
> point of view very little has changed.
>
> I would say the interface is remarkably stable, so hopefully that
> might be some encouragement to come back one day.
>
>    

Sure!

-- 
Manuel P.

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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Piotr Kopszak]

Well, well,

ConTeXt can help you if you give him a little love and don't try pull
all triggers at once. Having written my Ph.D. in LaTeX and published
couple of books in ConTeXT I can assure you, ConTeXt is surprisingly
better suited  for "scientific" texts (oops sorry, I  just mean text
with footnotes, bibliography,  a couple of indexes, list of
illustrations, definitions whatever) even if you disregard its
typographic quality. That's of course my entirely subjective opinion.

Piotr

2009/12/29 Manuel P. <ayeye.sysforge@gmail.com>:
> Il 29/12/2009 3.48, berend@pobox.com ha scritto:
>>
>>     Manuel>  Another "problem" is the "fluidity" of ConTeXt: it changes
>>     Manuel>  rapidly and the documentation is left behind.
>>
>> Maybe for some things, but I'm using a manual from 2004 and from my
>> point of view very little has changed.
>>
>> I would say the interface is remarkably stable, so hopefully that
>> might be some encouragement to come back one day.
>>
>>
>
> Sure!
>
> --
> Manuel P.
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>



-- 
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Re: Thoughts on ConTeXt: ditched

[Manuel P.]

Il 03/01/2010 19.45, Piotr Kopszak ha scritto:
>
> Well, well,
>
> ConTeXt can help you if you give him a little love and don't try pull
> all triggers at once. Having written my Ph.D. in LaTeX and published
> couple of books in ConTeXT I can assure you, ConTeXt is surprisingly
> better suited  for "scientific" texts (oops sorry, I  just mean text
> with footnotes, bibliography,  a couple of indexes, list of
> illustrations, definitions whatever) even if you disregard its
> typographic quality. That's of course my entirely subjective opinion.
>
> Piotr
>
>
>    

I've several passions, and one of them is desktop publishing and design 
(although I'm still a newbie) so a more in-depth exploration of ConTeXt 
in some future is likely.

-- 
Manuel P.

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