* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-19 20:10 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-01-19 20:23 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-01-19 20:26 ` Aditya Mahajan
2010-01-19 20:28 ` Aditya Mahajan
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-01-19 20:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 19.01.10 21:10, schrieb Alan BRASLAU:
> You probably are right to favor \quotation{}, \dots, etc.
> and to go unicode. But is it really necessary and a good idea
> to break with TeX culture? I guess so. What about $ $ (and $$ $$)?
> How about % (\%)? Not to mention&
>
$ and & are no problem because you can write inline math with \formula{...}
and ConTeXt’s tables don't use &
% is problmeatic because you need a character to start a comment
and there is AFAIK no way to get the same result from % with a macro
Wolfgang
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-19 20:10 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-01-19 20:23 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-01-19 20:28 ` Aditya Mahajan
2010-01-19 21:01 ` Hans Hagen
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2010-01-19 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 1008 bytes --]
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 January 2010 20:31:22 Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> Let me be a bit more "nationalistic" and exaggerate a bit for a moment
>> (just in order to explain why I find the idea of using `` a bad one;
>> do not take the text below too seriously or personally):
>
> I think that the easiest would be for everyone to use English :)
> That's my bit for Imperialism!
>
> As I write in a mixture of languages, I like to use \quotation{}.
> But long-time TeX users have habits that die hard,
> and just as we expect fl to yield fl, we also learn many "bad" tricks
> such as ``'' and ...
>
>> - The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
>> away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
>> way to print the grave accent.
>
> How about {\`} (untested)
No. It is not easy. See
http://archive.contextgarden.net/thread/20060912.165653.90ce7552.en.html
In particular, see Taco's reply.
Aditya
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-19 20:10 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-01-19 20:23 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-01-19 20:28 ` Aditya Mahajan
@ 2010-01-19 21:01 ` Hans Hagen
2010-01-19 21:02 ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-01-19 22:08 ` Peter Münster
4 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-01-19 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Mojca Miklavec
On 19-1-2010 21:10, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> and just as we expect fl to yield fl, we also learn many "bad" tricks
more precisely: as tex turns fl into fl without distinction between
languages we have come to expect that to be the case
> such as ``'' and ...
i must admit that i've never used those doubles ... \quotation cum suis
are the oldest context commands
Hans
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-19 20:10 ` Alan BRASLAU
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-01-19 21:01 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-01-19 21:02 ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-01-20 7:04 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-01-19 22:08 ` Peter Münster
4 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Mojca Miklavec @ 2010-01-19 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 21:10, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>
> I think that the easiest would be for everyone to use English :)
> That's my bit for Imperialism!
But then there would be plenty of historians trying to reproduce the
"old languages", just as Idris does. So nothing would be gained :) :)
:)
> As I write in a mixture of languages, I like to use \quotation{}.
> But long-time TeX users have habits that die hard,
(Let them continue use TeX then :) :) :)
But seriously - there are lots of other incompatibilities.
> and just as we expect fl to yield fl, we also learn many "bad" tricks
> such as ``'' and ...
No, you won't get that ligature if your font doesn't support it and
most people do not notice that ligatures exist at all (including me,
even after using LaTeX for several years).
Yes - it is a trick on the same level, but that trick needs to be
implemented in font. ConTeXt will never try to replace that with a
ligature if your font won't ask for that (and there's a way to turn
ligatures off completely in mkiv/xetex).
You can also "easily" create a font that will do the replacement of
backtick with single quotation mark for you. The main difference is
that 99.9% fonts in the wild don't have that replacement built in,
while most high-quality fonts do have some ligatures. The replacement
of ` or ' would usually be done by editors (Word), but there is no
standard editor for TeX to do that.
>> - The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
>> away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
>> way to print the grave accent.
>
> How about {\`} (untested)
Apart from the fact that this is a command used for a completely
different purpose, it wouldn't help. The problem is that
transformation is being done on glyph at position 0x60 in font itself.
The only option would be to copy the glyph 0x60 to Private Unicode
Area and then assign \textgrave to point to that obscure slot. But
that's more than ugly.
(See also Aditya's answer about apostrophe.)
> You probably are right to favor \quotation{}, \dots, etc.
> and to go unicode. But is it really necessary and a good idea
> to break with TeX culture? I guess so. What about $ $ (and $$ $$)?
> How about % (\%)? Not to mention &
This is a completely different question. (I do miss $$...$$ to be honest.)
These are active characters. You may do
\catcode\`&=\letter (untested syntax)
or maybe some \nonknuthmode command and you'll get the characted &.
Same is true for % (but yes - you need to forget about comments then).
The meaning of those characters is changed on "the editor level", so
it's extremely easy to change the behaviour.
The hack with `` is on font level. And that's when it's gets really
ugly. There is *no* way to get the original character back without
changing the font itself.
Two exceptions have been left on font level. That is two (harmless)
ligatures: "--" (endash), "---" (emdash) and replacement with
apostrophe as in "I'm". The last one is still very very ugly, but I
think it's mission impossible to convince anyone to "change the habit"
of using the proper apostrophe instead of '.
>> I have no idea which keyboard you use, but US International is pretty
>> rich (the problem is lack of some legend on keyboard itself), on the
>> other hand it's easy enough to make your own layout.
>
> My own computers are US International. However, I often use other
> computers having different layouts, many of which I cannot change.
> The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards,
Let's be honest ... any French keyboard ... :)
> as when I use them,
> I always have to remember how to find \ and {}
I admit that I neither remember where to find the letter A on French
keyboard nor the same characters on Slovenian keyboard ... But wait!
So you are complaining that you don't find quotation marks when
already \ and {} cause you problems?
> The bottom line is that we need to document these differences
> towards the very beginning of the manual, where ConTeXt is
> identified as a form of TeX.
I agree with that ... but there's a general "problem" with
(unmaintaned) documentation in ConTeXt.
Mojca
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-19 21:02 ` Mojca Miklavec
@ 2010-01-20 7:04 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-01-20 7:28 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-01-20 9:03 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-01-20 7:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards,
>
> Let's be honest ... any French keyboard ... :)
Don't forget macbook keyboards with dvorak mapping ;)
> I agree with that ... but there's a general "problem" with
> (unmaintaned) documentation in ConTeXt.
There is the mkiv differences page in the wiki, but already the
context manual is quite clear on using \quotation and \quote.
The problem is that all the latex and plain tex books promote
the use of `` and '' and people that already use TeX are unlikely
to change their habits (and most will not read the context manual
as thoroughly as they should).
Best wishes,
Taco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 7:04 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-01-20 7:28 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-01-20 7:52 ` Peter Münster
2010-01-20 9:10 ` Hans Hagen
2010-01-20 9:03 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2010-01-20 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On Wednesday 20 January 2010 08:04:43 Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> The problem is that all the latex and plain tex books promote
> the use of `` and '' and people that already use TeX are unlikely
> to change their habits (and most will not read the context manual
> as thoroughly as they should).
>
This is my concern. Whereas I do prefer \quotation{} being functionally
logical, after all the spirit of TeX, I also like unicode generalizations
(such as ± for \pm). Nevertheless, hard core TeX users as well as converts
from LaTeX *expect* ``'', --, ---, ..., etc. to work in ConTeXt. I assume that
the present discussion is useful and not simply controversial.
I ignore the mechanisms behind the different implementations (macro, fonts,
catcar, ...) and the problems that arise.
Concerning typesetting source code, I would suggest something as simple as
suspending ALL such tricks within \text{} and \starttyping\stoptyping (perhaps
parametrized). One could also define something like \shellescape{}, analogous
to \quotation{}, to typeset `echo "hello world"` and even \string{} to typeset
"string" or 'string', according to the programming language initialized.
What I also find disturbing is that *some* of these conventions are retained,
but not all.
Alan
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 7:28 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-01-20 7:52 ` Peter Münster
2010-01-20 9:10 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Peter Münster @ 2010-01-20 7:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Wed, Jan 20 2010, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> What I also find disturbing is that *some* of these conventions are retained,
> but not all.
Since most people use fixed width fonts in their editors, it is difficult
to distinguish between – (en-dash), — (em-dash) and - (hyphen-minus).
So "--" and "---" are quite useful.
Cheers, Peter
--
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 7:28 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-01-20 7:52 ` Peter Münster
@ 2010-01-20 9:10 ` Hans Hagen
2010-01-20 9:58 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-03-04 18:31 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-01-20 9:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 20-1-2010 8:28, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 January 2010 08:04:43 Taco Hoekwater wrote:
>> The problem is that all the latex and plain tex books promote
>> the use of `` and '' and people that already use TeX are unlikely
>> to change their habits (and most will not read the context manual
>> as thoroughly as they should).
>>
>
> This is my concern. Whereas I do prefer \quotation{} being functionally
> logical, after all the spirit of TeX, I also like unicode generalizations
> (such as ± for \pm). Nevertheless, hard core TeX users as well as converts
> from LaTeX *expect* ``'', --, ---, ..., etc. to work in ConTeXt. I assume that
> the present discussion is useful and not simply controversial.
one can always write small script that converts `` '' to \quotation
(actually one of my reasons for never using `` '' is that it looks quite
ugly in the source as the second pair is not tilted and i hate ugly
looking sources)
> I ignore the mechanisms behind the different implementations (macro, fonts,
> catcar, ...) and the problems that arise.
>
> Concerning typesetting source code, I would suggest something as simple as
> suspending ALL such tricks within \text{} and \starttyping\stoptyping (perhaps
> parametrized). One could also define something like \shellescape{}, analogous
> to \quotation{}, to typeset `echo "hello world"` and even \string{} to typeset
> "string" or 'string', according to the programming language initialized.
indeed this backtick is to be dealt with by a command as it differs per
operating system
> What I also find disturbing is that *some* of these conventions are retained,
> but not all.
in principle we can even drop $ and & as we now have primitives for them
and # can go also at some point (but unfortunately tex is somewhat
sensitive for #s passed in arguments
Hans
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 9:10 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-01-20 9:58 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-01-20 10:39 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-01-20 14:42 ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-03-04 18:31 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2010-01-20 9:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Wednesday 20 January 2010 10:10:07 Hans Hagen wrote:
> in principle we can even drop $ and & as we now have primitives for them
Can you explain? I ignore the primatives for $E=mc^2$.
Whereas Mojca regrets $$ $$, I have long prefered \startformula\stopformula
(or \begin{equation}\end{equation} if you like, as I sometimes still need to
use LaTeX).
I also much prefer
\framed {\relax
no leading space}
to
\framed {%
no leading space}
yet I do think that it would be a very bad idea to drop %
As to ugly source, I do agree that ``'' is not as pretty as “” (or is it ‟”, I
never know)
Character: “ U+201C
Name: LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK
Annotations and Cross References
Alias names: double turned comma quotation mark
Notes: this is the preferred character (as opposed to ‟ U+201F DOUBLE HIGH-
REVERSED-9 QUOTATION MARK)
See also:
" U+0022 QUOTATION MARK
❝ U+275D HEAVY DOUBLE TURNED COMMA QUOTATION MARK ORNAMENT
〝 U+301D REVERSED DOUBLE PRIME QUOTATION MARK
General Character Properties
Block: General Punctuation
Unicode category: Punctuation, Initial Quote
Various Useful Representations
UTF-8: 0xE2 0x80 0x9C
UTF-16: 0x201C
C octal escaped UTF-8: \342\200\234
XML decimal entity: “
Character: ‟ U+201F
Name: DOUBLE HIGH-REVERSED-9 QUOTATION MARK
Annotations and Cross References
Alias names: double reversed comma quotation mark
Notes: has same semantic as “ U+201C LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK, but differs in
appearance
General Character Properties
Block: General Punctuation
Unicode category: Punctuation, Initial Quote
Various Useful Representations
UTF-8: 0xE2 0x80 0x9F
UTF-16: 0x201F
C octal escaped UTF-8: \342\200\237
XML decimal entity: ‟
Furthermore, some "editors" such as MS-Word break the source, substituting
RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (Character: ’ U+2019) for
APOSTROPHE (Character: ' U+0027)
for some insane reason cited as the preferred character to be used for
apostrophe.
All of this is to stress that, whatever the new functionality added to
ConTeXt, the traditional TeX shorthands remain *very* useful for lots of users
and I suggest that they be retained. I'm not sure that I understand the
problem with ` (GRAVE ACCENT) that cannot be solved with a macro or by a
setting that disactivates the production of ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTE MARK).
I see from LaTeX that: \`{} is a grave accent
works, as does: \`\ is a grave accent
but not: {\`} is a grave accent
or: \` is a grave accent
Alan
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 9:58 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-01-20 10:39 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-01-20 14:42 ` Mojca Miklavec
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-01-20 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi Alan,
Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> Furthermore, some "editors" such as MS-Word break the source, substituting
> RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (Character: ’ U+2019) for
> APOSTROPHE (Character: ' U+0027)
> for some insane reason cited as the preferred character to be used for
> apostrophe.
From the Unicode specification:
0027 ' APOSTROPHE
= apostrophe-quote (1.0)
= APL quote
* neutral (vertical) glyph with mixed usage
* 2019 is preferred for apostrophe
* preferred characters in English for paired
quotation marks are 2018 & 2019
So I think Word actually does the right thing (assuming you
can live with its auto-correct features in the first place)
Best wishes,
Taco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 9:58 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-01-20 10:39 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-01-20 14:42 ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-03-04 18:41 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Mojca Miklavec @ 2010-01-20 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:58, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>
> I'm not sure that I understand the
> problem with ` (GRAVE ACCENT) that cannot be solved with a macro or by a
> setting that disactivates the production of ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTE MARK).
Try to process the following with XeTeX (I would be grateful if anyone
knew how to solve that particular problem; also note that some
hyphenation patterns don't work when ' is replaced by proper quotation
mark):
\font\a="[lmroman10-regular]"
\font\b="[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text"
\starttext
\a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
\b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
\stoptext
You can try to start playing with modifications of
texmf/fonts/misc/xetex/fontmapping/base/tex-text.map.
> I see from LaTeX that: \`{} is a grave accent
> works, as does: \`\ is a grave accent
> but not: {\`} is a grave accent
> or: \` is a grave accent
This is true for (pdf)latex. Have you tried the same with XeLaTeX
using any Unicode font (not the default cmr)? I wanted to try it out,
but I don't know how to do it.
Side note: This is unrelated to the problem that I have mentioned.
What you are quoting is a matter of "input handling". The problem we
want to solve has to do with "font handling".
Mojca
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 14:42 ` Mojca Miklavec
@ 2010-03-04 18:41 ` Khaled Hosny
0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2010-03-04 18:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 03:42:11PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:58, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure that I understand the
> > problem with ` (GRAVE ACCENT) that cannot be solved with a macro or by a
> > setting that disactivates the production of ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTE MARK).
>
> Try to process the following with XeTeX (I would be grateful if anyone
> knew how to solve that particular problem; also note that some
> hyphenation patterns don't work when ' is replaced by proper quotation
> mark):
>
> \font\a="[lmroman10-regular]"
> \font\b="[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text"
> \starttext
> \a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
> \b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
> \stoptext
\def\textgrave{\char"0300 }
\font\a="[lmroman10-regular]"
\font\b="[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text"
\starttext
\a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
\b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
\stoptext
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 9:10 ` Hans Hagen
2010-01-20 9:58 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-03-04 18:31 ` Khaled Hosny
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Khaled Hosny @ 2010-03-04 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:10:07AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> (actually one of my reasons for never using `` '' is that it looks
> quite ugly in the source as the second pair is not tilted and i hate
> ugly looking sources)
Since I'm using Inconsolata while reading this email, I had hard time
understanding why it looks OK here ;)
(I know it is an old thread, but I just started reading it now)
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
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* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-20 7:04 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-01-20 7:28 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-01-20 9:03 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-01-20 9:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Taco Hoekwater
On 20-1-2010 8:04, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>> The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards,
>>
>> Let's be honest ... any French keyboard ... :)
>
> Don't forget macbook keyboards with dvorak mapping ;)
and if i remember right mojca has a slovenian dvorak with some missing
keytops replaced by spares with other symbols
Hans
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* Re: using `` '' the output is wrong.
2010-01-19 20:10 ` Alan BRASLAU
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2010-01-19 21:02 ` Mojca Miklavec
@ 2010-01-19 22:08 ` Peter Münster
4 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Peter Münster @ 2010-01-19 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Tue, Jan 19 2010, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> My own computers are US International. However, I often use other
> computers having different layouts, many of which I cannot change.
> The worst I find are the Macs with French keyboards, as when I use them,
> I always have to remember how to find \ and {}
Perhaps you could put your dot-files (especially .xmodmap) on a public
server, and whenever you change the computer, you copy your personal
keyboard layout.
I'm doing that with subversion. "svn co ..." and I feel at home :)
Cheers, Peter
--
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
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