* Re: randomize
[not found] <mailman.1.1270634402.10942.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
@ 2010-04-07 11:00 ` Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
2010-04-07 11:05 ` randomize Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini @ 2010-04-07 11:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> >> Delete the tuc file with 'context --purgeall'.
> >>
> > This does not work! I get allways the same.
> >
> Delete
>
> \startluacode
> math.randomseed(os.time())
> \stopluacode
>
> in your file.
Now it works. But WHY?
Wolfgang
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-07 11:00 ` randomize Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
@ 2010-04-07 11:05 ` Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2010-04-07 11:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Now it works. But WHY?
Because that's the way random number generators works. They're not
random at all, they generate completely predictable number sequences
from a "seed": each time you use the same seed, you get the exact same
sequence. In your case, you used os.time() as a seed, which is an
integral number of seconds elapsed since some fixed date, and the fact
you saw the same number ten times simply means your code was ran ten
times within the same second.
Arthur
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-08 7:49 ` randomize Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-08 8:00 ` Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2010-04-08 8:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Sure? I think he use windows, take a look at the mail header:
>
> Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41, DE v4.41 R1)
Right, I was misled by the thread on the Lua list he pointed to, that
focused on the rand() implementation on Mac OS and other BSD descendants
(I had overseen that it mentioned the same problem also happened on
Windows). But let's drop the discussion there, lest Anonymous ConTeXt
User starts worrying we're going to track him down, too :-) (I have
contacts at Google on different continents!)
Arthur
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-08 7:41 ` randomize Arthur Reutenauer
@ 2010-04-08 7:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-08 8:00 ` randomize Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-08 7:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 08.04.10 09:41, schrieb Arthur Reutenauer:
>> http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2007-03/msg00564.html
>>
> Interesting, thanks for the research. So now we know you use a Mac :-)
>
Sure? I think he use windows, take a look at the mail header:
Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41, DE v4.41 R1)
Wolfgang
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-08 7:28 ` randomize Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
@ 2010-04-08 7:41 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-08 7:49 ` randomize Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2010-04-08 7:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
> http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2007-03/msg00564.html
Interesting, thanks for the research. So now we know you use a Mac :-)
Arthur
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* Re: randomize
[not found] <mailman.390.1270654736.4277.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
@ 2010-04-08 7:28 ` Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
2010-04-08 7:41 ` randomize Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini @ 2010-04-08 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> > I know this and I have triggerd this by hand. So there is a lot of
> > time between. I have purged files between every run and I got the
> > same result if I wait 1 second, 1 minute or 1 day.
>
> Well, then it probably qualifies as a bug, and, since the .tuc
> file
> has apparently been dismissed as a cause, you'd have to provide
> more
> precise information if you're interested in having it corrected (or
> do the debugging yourself, of course).
>
> Arthur
I have found a discussion on this thema. See
http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2007-03/msg00564.html
So I have changed the example to
-------------------------------------------------------------
\starttext
\startluacode
math.randomseed(os.time())
_=math.random()
\stopluacode
Encode your Name and Surname as a
\startluacode
local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
\stopluacode
\stoptext
-------------------------------------------------------------
and this is working ok!
Wolfgang
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-07 13:42 ` randomize Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
@ 2010-04-07 13:56 ` Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2010-04-07 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
> I know this and I have triggerd this by hand. So there is a lot of
> time between. I have purged files between every run and I got the
> same result if I wait 1 second, 1 minute or 1 day.
Well, then it probably qualifies as a bug, and, since the .tuc file
has apparently been dismissed as a cause, you'd have to provide more
precise information if you're interested in having it corrected (or do
the debugging yourself, of course).
Arthur
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* Re: randomize
[not found] <mailman.376.1270641896.4277.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
@ 2010-04-07 13:42 ` Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
2010-04-07 13:56 ` randomize Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini @ 2010-04-07 13:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> > Now it works. But WHY?
>
> Because that's the way random number generators works. They're
> not
> random at all, they generate completely predictable number
> sequences
> from a "seed": each time you use the same seed, you get the exact
> same
> sequence. In your case, you used os.time() as a seed, which is an
> integral number of seconds elapsed since some fixed date, and the
> fact
> you saw the same number ten times simply means your code was ran
> ten
> times within the same second.
I know this and I have triggerd this by hand. So there is a lot of
time between. I have purged files between every run and I got the
same result if I wait 1 second, 1 minute or 1 day.
Wolfgang
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* Re: randomize
[not found] <mailman.371.1270609971.4277.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
@ 2010-04-07 9:40 ` Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini @ 2010-04-07 9:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> > I get allways (10 times at least) the same result:
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > \starttext
> > \startluacode
> > math.randomseed(os.time())
> > \stopluacode
> >
> > Encode your Name and Surname as a
> > \startluacode
> > local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
> > context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
> > \stopluacode
> > \stoptext
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > How can I randomize this?
>
> Hmm... which version are you using? I do get a ranom output each
> time.
> Tested with 2009.12.31 and 2010.03.20.
This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.60.0-2010040521 (rev 3596)
\write18 enabled.
(tst-b.tex
ConTeXt ver: 2010.03.30 18:56 MKIV fmt: 2010.4.7 int:
english/english
> Since the math seed is set after \starttext, it should overwrite the
> value after reading the tuc file.
>
> Actually, I consider saving the random number in tuc file to be a
> misfeature. A random sequence generator should generate a random
> sequence.
> If I want the same behavior all the time, I can use
> \setupsystem[random=12345] (which should also set
> math.randomseed).
I agree with this!
A feature could be to save the last used random value in the tuc, so
that one can continue with the former used sequenz. But this should
not be used automatically, too. May be one should than say
\setupsystem[random=last]
Wolfgang
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-07 3:05 ` randomize Aditya Mahajan
2010-04-07 7:17 ` randomize Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-07 7:45 ` luigi scarso
1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-07 7:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini wrote:
>
>> Hallo,
>>
>> I get allways (10 times at least) the same result:
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> \starttext
>> \startluacode
>> math.randomseed(os.time())
>> \stopluacode
>>
>> Encode your Name and Surname as a
>> \startluacode
>> local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
>> context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
>> \stopluacode
>> \stoptext
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> How can I randomize this?
>
> Hmm... which version are you using? I do get a ranom output each time.
> Tested with 2009.12.31 and 2010.03.20.
>
> Since the math seed is set after \starttext, it should overwrite the value
> after reading the tuc file.
Same here:
# for j in `seq 1 100`; do context test.tex &> /dev/null; pdftotext
test.pdf -|grep Encode; done >> out
# nl out |tail -1
100 Encode your Name and Surname as a null-terminated string
# grep 'Encode your Name and Surname as a Pascal string' out |nl|tail -1
33 Encode your Name and Surname as a Pascal string
# grep 'Encode your Name and Surname as a dollar-terminated string'
out |nl|tail -1
35 Encode your Name and Surname as a dollar-terminated string
# grep 'Encode your Name and Surname as a null-terminated string' out
|nl|tail -1
32 Encode your Name and Surname as a null-terminated string
which is pretty good for only 100 samples
--
luigi
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-07 3:05 ` randomize Aditya Mahajan
@ 2010-04-07 7:17 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-07 7:45 ` randomize luigi scarso
1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-07 7:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 7-4-2010 5:05, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini wrote:
>
>> Hallo,
>>
>> I get allways (10 times at least) the same result:
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> \starttext
>> \startluacode
>> math.randomseed(os.time())
>> \stopluacode
>>
>> Encode your Name and Surname as a
>> \startluacode
>> local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
>> context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
>> \stopluacode
>> \stoptext
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> How can I randomize this?
>
> Hmm... which version are you using? I do get a ranom output each time.
> Tested with 2009.12.31 and 2010.03.20.
>
> Since the math seed is set after \starttext, it should overwrite the
> value after reading the tuc file.
>
> Actually, I consider saving the random number in tuc file to be a
> misfeature. A random sequence generator should generate a random
> sequence. If I want the same behavior all the time, I can use
> \setupsystem[random=12345] (which should also set math.randomseed).
the reason is that otherwise (esp if the randomization produced
different input, graphic sizes, etc) you can get oscilation and endless
runs due to never quite right multipass data which is pretty hard to debug
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-06 23:10 ` randomize Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
@ 2010-04-07 6:58 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-07 6:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 07.04.10 01:10, schrieb Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini:
>> Delete the tuc file with 'context --purgeall'.
>>
> This does not work! I get allways the same.
>
Delete
\startluacode
math.randomseed(os.time())
\stopluacode
in your file.
Wolfgang
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-05 22:21 randomize Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
2010-04-05 22:49 ` randomize Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-07 3:05 ` Aditya Mahajan
2010-04-07 7:17 ` randomize Hans Hagen
2010-04-07 7:45 ` randomize luigi scarso
1 sibling, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2010-04-07 3:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini wrote:
> Hallo,
>
> I get allways (10 times at least) the same result:
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> \starttext
> \startluacode
> math.randomseed(os.time())
> \stopluacode
>
> Encode your Name and Surname as a
> \startluacode
> local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
> context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
> \stopluacode
> \stoptext
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> How can I randomize this?
Hmm... which version are you using? I do get a ranom output each time.
Tested with 2009.12.31 and 2010.03.20.
Since the math seed is set after \starttext, it should overwrite the value
after reading the tuc file.
Actually, I consider saving the random number in tuc file to be a
misfeature. A random sequence generator should generate a random sequence.
If I want the same behavior all the time, I can use
\setupsystem[random=12345] (which should also set
math.randomseed).
Aditya
___________________________________________________________________________________
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* Re: randomize
[not found] <mailman.349.1270527943.4277.ntg-context@ntg.nl>
@ 2010-04-06 23:10 ` Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
2010-04-07 6:58 ` randomize Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini @ 2010-04-06 23:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> Am 06.04.10 00:21, schrieb Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini:
> > Hallo,
> >
> > I get allways (10 times at least) the same result:
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > \starttext
> > \startluacode
> > math.randomseed(os.time())
> > \stopluacode
> >
> > Encode your Name and Surname as a
> > \startluacode
> > local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
> > context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
> > \stopluacode
> > \stoptext
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > How can I randomize this?
> >
> ConTeXt saves the random value in the tuc file to get the same
> output in
> each run.
>
> Delete the tuc file with 'context --purgeall'.
This does not work! I get allways the same.
And shouldn't the tuc-seed be overwriten from my os.time-seed?
Wolfgang
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* Re: randomize
2010-04-05 22:21 randomize Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
@ 2010-04-05 22:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-07 3:05 ` randomize Aditya Mahajan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-05 22:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 06.04.10 00:21, schrieb Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini:
> Hallo,
>
> I get allways (10 times at least) the same result:
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> \starttext
> \startluacode
> math.randomseed(os.time())
> \stopluacode
>
> Encode your Name and Surname as a
> \startluacode
> local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
> context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
> \stopluacode
> \stoptext
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> How can I randomize this?
>
ConTeXt saves the random value in the tuc file to get the same output in
each run.
Delete the tuc file with 'context --purgeall'.
Wolfgang
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* randomize
@ 2010-04-05 22:21 Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini
2010-04-05 22:49 ` randomize Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-07 3:05 ` randomize Aditya Mahajan
0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini @ 2010-04-05 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Hallo,
I get allways (10 times at least) the same result:
-------------------------------------------------------------
\starttext
\startluacode
math.randomseed(os.time())
\stopluacode
Encode your Name and Surname as a
\startluacode
local a = {'null-terminated', 'dollar-terminated', 'Pascal'}
context('%s string', a[math.random(1,3)])
\stopluacode
\stoptext
-------------------------------------------------------------
How can I randomize this?
Wolfgang
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2010-04-05 22:49 ` randomize Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-07 3:05 ` randomize Aditya Mahajan
2010-04-07 7:17 ` randomize Hans Hagen
2010-04-07 7:45 ` randomize luigi scarso
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