From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/59568 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Khaled Hosny Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: can Context render complex scripts? Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:50:56 +0300 Message-ID: <20100613195056.GA4265@khaled-laptop> References: <4C14F250.70206@wxs.nl> <4C152C8B.8030404@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1276458676 32351 80.91.229.12 (13 Jun 2010 19:51:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:51:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Hans Hagen To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sun Jun 13 21:51:14 2010 connect(): No such file or directory Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ONtD6-00038b-0q for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:51:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2127BC9A9C; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:51:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id YS8UeI+d5NLh; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:51:08 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118A6C9A41; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:51:08 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1FAC9A41 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:51:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id lmENT5ufG1P3 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:51:04 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com (mail-wy0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E971C9A1F for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:51:03 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by wyf28 with SMTP id 28so3394278wyf.14 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:date:from:to:cc :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=4R2wjB+nYcOykhAQz1QdYbc5GWMrJ1PNOUPoLP7IfdQ=; b=mb5SpdjmBKCzGLhoeUZy1bO6Jrv6VsSEQPj21qNJu8wGd45p6gOF5mRKt3mDp93YoH xraa6hinIoEbOBnVdo1PPypvla2PZeIXRMFnIdS9EM20yBvgnrXwAe2InfeQlxAV025v dKfgr45SeP9N8afs5CFrQFhUuowi+Az1ciBPQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=s6H2iBCCMPX5IipUtgylLJVJlkTO+yZUAafXNvTAWRyUG5SFYtOIVajUYsUya0JCP3 FDlijDrhlJsGDtT4R9ZSmfRhn9TobmWmmW/9bzzqZRz66WNZyCQYVpjJ+LlFoe3dyqPA mzP7iEnJEocoaSzFMZkhphm+z/iwlVgO8IIm0= Original-Received: by 10.227.136.71 with SMTP id q7mr4833445wbt.67.1276458663698; Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([41.238.232.107]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b17sm30254059wbd.13.2010.06.13.12.51.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:59568 Archived-At: On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 02:29:40PM -0500, Michael Saunders wrote: > > As Khaled mentioned ... are these proper otf fonts or do they rely on > > specific features in the microsoft engine? > > They all carry the .ttf extender. Arial Unicode MS is clearly True > Type. I've seen some of the free fonts widely described as Open Type, > but they are all amateur products---maybe they don't comply with the > standard properly. > > If True Type fonts won't work correctly without an external engine and > Context can't harness an external engine, then it looks like I will > just have to wait for a more modern font to come along. OpenType (just ignore file extension for the moment) is a rather dump standard in the sense that it requires the engine to have some knowledge about the writing system at hand. Take Arabic as an example, the engine need to know about the rules of Arabic shaping, what are letters are dual joining, what are right joining only etc. and then apply OpenType features conditionally on those characters, without that knowledge, no OpenType engine is capable for rendering Arabic, and the same is true for any other complex script. On the other hand, there is AAT and Graphite fonts, that are implemented in a more generic way, where the engine has no particular knowledge about any writing system and all the rules are embedded into the font. Though this seems a bit smarter, it makes the task of building a font very complex and tedious since the rules have to be implemented again and again in each font, also type designers are not programmers and asking them to do such complex tasks is impractical, for example you can count all AAT fonts that produced outside Apple, the makers of the technology, on one hand, now even Apple is moving to OpenType. So, what we have here is that ConTeXt has no special knowledge about Indic scripts, and thus it will not apply the feature properly according the linguistic rules. So, instead of waiting for a "more modern font to come along" (which unlikely to happen any time soon, giving how much the industry have invested into OpenType, and the apparent failure of AAT), just try to reach more people in the Indic community and come out with a clear specification and tests that Hans can implement. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________