unicode no-break spaces

unicode no-break spaces

[Peter Münster]

Hello,

This used to work with MKIV, but with today's version, it does not:

\starttext
X X THIN SPACE (U+2009)\blank
X X NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE (U+202F)\blank
X X NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0)\blank
\stoptext

Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the past?

Cheers, Peter

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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Hans Hagen]

Peter Münster wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> This used to work with MKIV, but with today's version, it does not:
> 
> \starttext
> X X THIN SPACE (U+2009)\blank
> X X NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE (U+202F)\blank
> X X NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0)\blank
> \stoptext
> 
> Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the past?

repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Sunday 07 June 2009 13:12:11 Hans Hagen wrote:
> Peter Münster wrote:
> > Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the past?
>
> repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)

"~", by the way, appears not to be respected in math mode; example:

\starttext
$3\times 10^{-9}~\text{m}$

$3\times 10^{-9}\,\text{m}$
\stoptext


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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Hans Hagen]

Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Sunday 07 June 2009 13:12:11 Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Peter Münster wrote:
>>> Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the past?
>> repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)
> 
> "~", by the way, appears not to be respected in math mode; example:
> 
> \starttext
> $3\times 10^{-9}~\text{m}$
> 
> $3\times 10^{-9}\,\text{m}$
> \stoptext

no surprise, as math has its own spacing model so it all depends on the 
definitions; i'm not even sure if we shoule support an active ~ in math 
mode at all

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Sunday 07 June 2009 14:10:10 Hans Hagen wrote:
> Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> > On Sunday 07 June 2009 13:12:11 Hans Hagen wrote:
> >> Peter Münster wrote:
> >>> Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the past?
> >>
> >> repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)
> >
> > "~", by the way, appears not to be respected in math mode; example:
> >
> > \starttext
> > $3\times 10^{-9}~\text{m}$
> >
> > $3\times 10^{-9}\,\text{m}$
> > \stoptext
>
> no surprise, as math has its own spacing model so it all depends on the
> definitions; i'm not even sure if we shoule support an active ~ in math
> mode at all

I do not have any strong feelings about this, but do believe that "~" has 
always provided an unbreakable white space in TeX, both in text and math mode. 
I also feel that "~" is more readable than "\,".

Alan

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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Taco Hoekwater]

Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Sunday 07 June 2009 14:10:10 Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>>> On Sunday 07 June 2009 13:12:11 Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>> Peter Münster wrote:
>>>>> Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the past?
>>>> repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)
>>> "~", by the way, appears not to be respected in math mode; example:
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>> $3\times 10^{-9}~\text{m}$
>>>
>>> $3\times 10^{-9}\,\text{m}$
>>> \stoptext
>> no surprise, as math has its own spacing model so it all depends on the
>> definitions; i'm not even sure if we shoule support an active ~ in math
>> mode at all
> 
> I do not have any strong feelings about this, but do believe that "~" has 
> always provided an unbreakable white space in TeX, both in text and math mode. 
> I also feel that "~" is more readable than "\,".

The activeness of ~ isn't that important, but there really should be
a non-breakable space in math mode, and an active ~ is the most logical
choice because of 20 years of TeX input. You can pick something else,
but it is definately needed, and it should be shorter than
   "\penalty10000 \ "

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Hans Hagen]

Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>> On Sunday 07 June 2009 14:10:10 Hans Hagen wrote:
>>> Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>>>> On Sunday 07 June 2009 13:12:11 Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>>> Peter Münster wrote:
>>>>>> Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the 
>>>>>> past?
>>>>> repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)
>>>> "~", by the way, appears not to be respected in math mode; example:
>>>>
>>>> \starttext
>>>> $3\times 10^{-9}~\text{m}$
>>>>
>>>> $3\times 10^{-9}\,\text{m}$
>>>> \stoptext
>>> no surprise, as math has its own spacing model so it all depends on the
>>> definitions; i'm not even sure if we shoule support an active ~ in math
>>> mode at all
>>
>> I do not have any strong feelings about this, but do believe that "~" 
>> has always provided an unbreakable white space in TeX, both in text 
>> and math mode. I also feel that "~" is more readable than "\,".
> 
> The activeness of ~ isn't that important, but there really should be
> a non-breakable space in math mode, and an active ~ is the most logical
> choice because of 20 years of TeX input. You can pick something else,
> but it is definately needed, and it should be shorter than
>   "\penalty10000 \ "

hm, currently ~ is

\penalty \plustenthousand\space

which gives no space in math as spaces are ignored

i have this definition probably for a reason so i tend to be careful 
with a change in text mode

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Peter Münster]

On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Peter Münster wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > This used to work with MKIV, but with today's version, it does not:
> > 
> > \starttext
> > X X THIN SPACE (U+2009)\blank
> > X X NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE (U+202F)\blank
> > X X NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0)\blank
> > \stoptext
> > 
> > Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the past?
> 
> repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)

Thanks!

Is there any difference between "THIN SPACE" and "NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE" in
ConTeXt?
Should there be a difference (perhaps "THIN SPACE" breakable)?

Cheers, Peter

-- 
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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Should there be a difference (perhaps "THIN SPACE" breakable)?

  Yes, U+2009 is supposed to be breakable.

	Arthur
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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Peter Münster]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:

> > Should there be a difference (perhaps "THIN SPACE" breakable)?
> 
>   Yes, U+2009 is supposed to be breakable.

Ok, but not the case in ConTeXt:

\starttext
\hsize1pt
bla bla
\stoptext

Cheers, Peter

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Re: unicode no-break spaces

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Sunday 07 June 2009 16:55:59 Hans Hagen wrote:
> Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> > Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> >> On Sunday 07 June 2009 14:10:10 Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>> Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday 07 June 2009 13:12:11 Hans Hagen wrote:
> >>>>> Peter Münster wrote:
> >>>>>> Should this work, or should we rather use "~" and "\," as in the
> >>>>>> past?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> repaired in next beta (was unwanted side effect of optimization)
> >>>> 
> >>>> "~", by the way, appears not to be respected in math mode; example:
> >>>> 
> >>>> \starttext
> >>>> $3\times 10^{-9}~\text{m}$
> >>>> 
> >>>> $3\times 10^{-9}\,\text{m}$
> >>>> \stoptext
> >>> 
> >>> no surprise, as math has its own spacing model so it all depends on the
> >>> definitions; i'm not even sure if we shoule support an active ~ in math
> >>> mode at all
> >> 
> >> I do not have any strong feelings about this, but do believe that "~"
> >> has always provided an unbreakable white space in TeX, both in text
> >> and math mode. I also feel that "~" is more readable than "\,".
> > 
> > The activeness of ~ isn't that important, but there really should be
> > a non-breakable space in math mode, and an active ~ is the most logical
> > choice because of 20 years of TeX input. You can pick something else,
> > but it is definately needed, and it should be shorter than
> > 
> >   "\penalty10000 \ "
> 
> hm, currently ~ is
> 
> \penalty \plustenthousand\space
> 
> which gives no space in math as spaces are ignored
> 
> i have this definition probably for a reason so i tend to be careful
> with a change in text mode

Reviving an older thread - still a problem.

What is the current, proper means of inputing an unbreakable white space?
1. in math mode;
2. in text mode.
(I suggest that the same symbol should work in both cases).
Use of unicode nbsp can be problematic (and sometimes unreadable).

Minimal example:

\chapter{X~ray} % OK
\startchapter[title={X~ray}] % no good - shows "~" in the bookmarks!

(of course, the examples above are "silly" as such a short word would
not get broken, unless the width was *really* small...)

Alan
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