Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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Two days ago I already posted about this. But because of a glitch at my
side, it became a conversation between me and Hans Hagen.

I have almost finished writing documentation with ConTeXt. Now the client
also needs to have the possibility to change the document. We are so far
that the client will work with Adobe Acrobat. Now I have to prove that they
can edit it. My boss has a 'recent' version 8 (latest is X). It does not
look very promising to edit a document, but that is at this moment not the
biggest problem.

When I try to change text, I get:
    All or part of the selection has no available system font. You cannot
add or delete text using the currently selected font.

I have added a screenshot of the font properties.

Is this a problem because of the old Adobe version, or the used fonts? If
the latter, which fonts should I use to circumvent this problem?

At the moment I am using:
    \usetypescript[helvetica]
    \setupbodyfont[helvetica]
because they did not like the default font.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two days ago I already posted about this. But because of a glitch at my
> side, it became a conversation between me and Hans Hagen.
>
> I have almost finished writing documentation with ConTeXt. Now the client
> also needs to have the possibility to change the document. We are so far
> that the client will work with Adobe Acrobat. Now I have to prove that they
> can edit it. My boss has a 'recent' version 8 (latest is X). It does not
> look very promising to edit a document, but that is at this moment not the
> biggest problem.
>
> When I try to change text, I get:
>     All or part of the selection has no available system font. You cannot
> add or delete text using the currently selected font.
>
> I have added a screenshot of the font properties.
>
> Is this a problem because of the old Adobe version, or the used fonts? If
> the latter, which fonts should I use to circumvent this problem?
>
> At the moment I am using:
>     \usetypescript[helvetica]
>     \setupbodyfont[helvetica]
> because they did not like the default font.
It's simple: the host where the adobe pro is run has not the fonts.
So the host must install these fonts --- they have a permissive
license and they come with the minimals too.
This will be true whatever version of Acrobat Pro  you will use, even X.

-- 
luigi
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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Thanks for the speedy reply.

2011/7/14 luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>

> > Is this a problem because of the old Adobe version, or the used fonts? If
> > the latter, which fonts should I use to circumvent this problem?
> >
> > At the moment I am using:
> >     \usetypescript[helvetica]
> >     \setupbodyfont[helvetica]
> > because they did not like the default font.
> It's simple: the host where the adobe pro is run has not the fonts.
> So the host must install these fonts --- they have a permissive
> license and they come with the minimals too.
> This will be true whatever version of Acrobat Pro  you will use, even X.
>

I did not think it had to do with 8, but it is never wrong to ask.

Maybe a dump question, but how do I install the fonts? Or how do I determine
a font that is installed with ConTeXt and Adobe? They have about 700 fonts.
So maybe there is an usable font that both systems have.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Hans Hagen]

On 14-7-2011 4:29, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> Thanks for the speedy reply.
>
> 2011/7/14 luigi scarso<luigi.scarso@gmail.com>
>
>>> Is this a problem because of the old Adobe version, or the used fonts? If
>>> the latter, which fonts should I use to circumvent this problem?
>>>
>>> At the moment I am using:
>>>      \usetypescript[helvetica]
>>>      \setupbodyfont[helvetica]
>>> because they did not like the default font.
>> It's simple: the host where the adobe pro is run has not the fonts.
>> So the host must install these fonts --- they have a permissive
>> license and they come with the minimals too.
>> This will be true whatever version of Acrobat Pro  you will use, even X.
>>
>
> I did not think it had to do with 8, but it is never wrong to ask.
>
> Maybe a dump question, but how do I install the fonts? Or how do I determine
> a font that is installed with ConTeXt and Adobe? They have about 700 fonts.
> So maybe there is an usable font that both systems have.

you can look at the list of reported fonts, and put those in the 
windows/fonts (forget about type1, just stick to the ttf/otf)

or instead you can use fonts that come with the operating system when 
making the pdf

Hans


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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the speedy reply.
>
> 2011/7/14 luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>
>>
>> > Is this a problem because of the old Adobe version, or the used fonts?
>> > If
>> > the latter, which fonts should I use to circumvent this problem?
>> >
>> > At the moment I am using:
>> >     \usetypescript[helvetica]
>> >     \setupbodyfont[helvetica]
>> > because they did not like the default font.
>> It's simple: the host where the adobe pro is run has not the fonts.
>> So the host must install these fonts --- they have a permissive
>> license and they come with the minimals too.
>> This will be true whatever version of Acrobat Pro  you will use, even X.
>
> I did not think it had to do with 8, but it is never wrong to ask.
>
> Maybe a dump question, but how do I install the fonts? Or how do I determine
> a font that is installed with ConTeXt and Adobe? They have about 700 fonts.
> So maybe there is an usable font that both systems have.
The font with the minimals are inside the minimals and they can be
query with mtxrun.
They are independent and separated from the system.
The same for texlive.

Windows and MacOS have they way to install/query system fonts.
Usually one install a font from context into the system fonts as an
ordinary font, at least under Windows.



-- 
luigi
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>

> >> > Is this a problem because of the old Adobe version, or the used fonts?
> >> > If
> >> > the latter, which fonts should I use to circumvent this problem?
> >> >
> >> > At the moment I am using:
> >> >     \usetypescript[helvetica]
> >> >     \setupbodyfont[helvetica]
> >> > because they did not like the default font.
> >> It's simple: the host where the adobe pro is run has not the fonts.
> >> So the host must install these fonts --- they have a permissive
> >> license and they come with the minimals too.
> >> This will be true whatever version of Acrobat Pro  you will use, even X.
> >
> > I did not think it had to do with 8, but it is never wrong to ask.
> >
> > Maybe a dump question, but how do I install the fonts? Or how do I
> determine
> > a font that is installed with ConTeXt and Adobe? They have about 700
> fonts.
> > So maybe there is an usable font that both systems have.
> The font with the minimals are inside the minimals and they can be
> query with mtxrun.
> They are independent and separated from the system.
> The same for texlive.
>

I just ran:
mtxrun --script fonts --list --info --pattern="*"

but only get:
mtx-fonts       |
mtx-fonts       | mapping : texmfhome
mtx-fonts       | fontname: texmfhome
mtx-fonts       | fullname: texmfhome
mtx-fonts       | filename: texmfhome.otf
mtx-fonts       | family  : texmfhome
mtx-fonts       | weight  : medium
mtx-fonts       | style   : normal
mtx-fonts       | width   : normal
mtx-fonts       | variant : normal
mtx-fonts       | subfont :
mtx-fonts       | fweight :
mtx-fonts       |

I also ran:
mtxrun --script fonts --reload

But that does not change the output from:
mtxrun --script fonts --list --info --pattern="*"


Windows and MacOS have they way to install/query system fonts.
> Usually one install a font from context into the system fonts as an
> ordinary font, at least under Windows.
>

I work with ConTeXt under Linux and Adobe runs under Windows.

What do I need to do to get things working.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>

> you can look at the list of reported fonts, and put those in the
> windows/fonts (forget about type1, just stick to the ttf/otf)
>

I executed
find . -name '*Gyre*'

But that does not find anything.

or instead you can use fonts that come with the operating system when making
> the pdf
>

I am building on Linux and the editing has to be done on Windows. So I am
afraid that it is not going to work. (But I like to be proven wrong.) I
removed all setting of fonts, so I think the OS font was used. But the same
problem in Adobe. (LMRoman)

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/7/14 luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>
>>
>> >> > Is this a problem because of the old Adobe version, or the used
>> >> > fonts?
>> >> > If
>> >> > the latter, which fonts should I use to circumvent this problem?
>> >> >
>> >> > At the moment I am using:
>> >> >     \usetypescript[helvetica]
>> >> >     \setupbodyfont[helvetica]
>> >> > because they did not like the default font.
>> >> It's simple: the host where the adobe pro is run has not the fonts.
>> >> So the host must install these fonts --- they have a permissive
>> >> license and they come with the minimals too.
>> >> This will be true whatever version of Acrobat Pro  you will use, even
>> >> X.
>> >
>> > I did not think it had to do with 8, but it is never wrong to ask.
>> >
>> > Maybe a dump question, but how do I install the fonts? Or how do I
>> > determine
>> > a font that is installed with ConTeXt and Adobe? They have about 700
>> > fonts.
>> > So maybe there is an usable font that both systems have.
>> The font with the minimals are inside the minimals and they can be
>> query with mtxrun.
>> They are independent and separated from the system.
>> The same for texlive.
>
> I just ran:
> mtxrun --script fonts --list --info --pattern="*"

mtxrun --script fonts --list --file *otf
mtxrun --script fonts --list --file *ttf
mtxrun --script fonts --list --file *pfb
mtxrun --script fonts --list --file *afm
mtxrun --script fonts --list --file "*.*"
mtxrun --script fonts --list --file "*"

> I work with ConTeXt under Linux and Adobe runs under Windows.
> What do I need to do to get things working.
Then install the fonts of your document (LMMath and TexGyre ) under windows.

-- 
luigi
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 05:09:36PM +0200, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> I work with ConTeXt under Linux and Adobe runs under Windows.
> 
> What do I need to do to get things working.

You need to make sure fonts used by ConTeXt are available to Adobe
thing, either by 1) installing fonts used by ConTeXt on the Wondows
machine, or 2) installing fonts that are installed on the Windows
machine for use with ConTeXt. "1" is much easier, from the screenshot
you are using TeX Gyre Heors:

    mtxrun --find-file texgyreheros-regular.otf

should tell you where is the font on your ConTeXt installation (well, I
knew the filename already, but `mtxrun --script fonts` should help for
locating fonts in more general way though I never had success with it).
You have to copy the whole family (i.e. italic, bold and bolditalic too)
to the Windows machine, and it should make the Adobe thing happy.

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Egyptian
 Arab
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>

> 2011/7/14 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>
>
>> you can look at the list of reported fonts, and put those in the
>> windows/fonts (forget about type1, just stick to the ttf/otf)
>>
>
> I executed
> find . -name '*Gyre*'
>
> But that does not find anything.
>

Found them. The names are all lowercase. I have:
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-regular.otf
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-italic.otf
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bold.otf
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-italic.otf
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-regular.otf
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bolditalic.otf
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bold.otf
./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bolditalic.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-regular.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-italic.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bold.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-italic.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-regular.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bolditalic.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bold.otf
./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bolditalic.otf

I can install them without problems? There is no restricting copyright on
them?

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Martin Schröder]

2011/7/14 Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>:
> I can install them without problems? There is no restricting copyright on
> them?

Yes. No.

Best
   Martin
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>

> Found them. The names are all lowercase. I have:
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-regular.otf
>
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-italic.otf
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bold.otf
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-italic.otf
>
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-regular.otf
>
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bolditalic.otf
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bold.otf
>
> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bolditalic.otf
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-regular.otf
>
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-italic.otf
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bold.otf
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-italic.otf
>
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-regular.otf
>
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bolditalic.otf
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bold.otf
>
> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bolditalic.otf
>
> I can install them without problems? There is no restricting copyright on
> them?
>

I installed them. (When you know what to do, it is not hard.) Now I can
change the document. The only problem is that when deleting a page, or
adding a page, etc., the index and the page numbering  does not change. But
that could be that I do not understand Adobe. Five minutes is hardly enough
to learn to work with it.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 18:01, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
>
> The only problem is that when deleting a page, or
> adding a page, etc., the index and the page numbering  does not change. But
> that could be that I do not understand Adobe. Five minutes is hardly enough
> to learn to work with it.

From Adobe's point of view the page number is just a string that has
nothing to do with the page number itself. And so is the index. Adobe
has no information at all that the thing on the first page is an index
and thus won't update it.

You also cannot expect from Adobe to support editing equations.

You would need to convince your clients to use something similar to
LyX (and convince TeX developers to write a better LyX) in order to do
that.

You can do tiny edits, but not much more than that.

Mojca
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[John Haltiwanger]

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On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/7/14 Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>
>
>> Found them. The names are all lowercase. I have:
>>
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-regular.otf
>>
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-italic.otf
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bold.otf
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-italic.otf
>>
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-regular.otf
>>
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bolditalic.otf
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bold.otf
>>
>> ./context/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bolditalic.otf
>>
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-regular.otf
>>
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-italic.otf
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bold.otf
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-italic.otf
>>
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-regular.otf
>>
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheroscn-bolditalic.otf
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bold.otf
>>
>> ./ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bolditalic.otf
>>
>> I can install them without problems? There is no restricting copyright on
>> them?
>>
>
> I installed them. (When you know what to do, it is not hard.) Now I can
> change the document. The only problem is that when deleting a page, or
> adding a page, etc., the index and the page numbering  does not change. But
> that could be that I do not understand Adobe. Five minutes is hardly enough
> to learn to work with it.
>
>
This would be a funciton of typesetting. The table of contents is indexed to
the document as it is typeset, not dynamically throughout its existence. If
you were to delete all the pages except for the table of contents, it would
still refer to all the same pages.

If this is a necessary part of your workflow, then it sounds like a WYSIWYG
tool like Scribus or InDesign is more appropriate (unfortunately).


> --
> Cecil Westerhof
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 Mojca Miklavec <mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com>

> From Adobe's point of view the page number is just a string that has
> nothing to do with the page number itself. And so is the index. Adobe
> has no information at all that the thing on the first page is an index
> and thus won't update it.
>

Then I have a problem. :-{



> You also cannot expect from Adobe to support editing equations.
>

I agree.



> You would need to convince your clients to use something similar to
> LyX (and convince TeX developers to write a better LyX) in order to do
> that.
>

That is not going to work I am afraid. Besides that uses TeX/LaTeX and my
document is ConTeXt.

Is there a possibility to export to a format that is editable? HTML is
possible of-course, but is there a better possibility?

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 John Haltiwanger <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>

> I installed them. (When you know what to do, it is not hard.) Now I can
> change the document. The only problem is that when deleting a page, or
> adding a page, etc., the index and the page numbering  does not change. But
> that could be that I do not understand Adobe. Five minutes is hardly enough
> to learn to work with it.
>
>>
>>
> This would be a funciton of typesetting. The table of contents is indexed
> to the document as it is typeset, not dynamically throughout its existence.
> If you were to delete all the pages except for the table of contents, it
> would still refer to all the same pages.
>
> If this is a necessary part of your workflow, then it sounds like a WYSIWYG
> tool like Scribus or InDesign is more appropriate (unfortunately).
>

The problem is that my document already is finished. First I could just
deliver a PDF file. Now they want to edit it themselves. Or can I generate
from my tex file something that has the meta information and can be edited
in Scribus?

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[John Haltiwanger]

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On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/7/14 John Haltiwanger <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>
>
>> I installed them. (When you know what to do, it is not hard.) Now I can
>> change the document. The only problem is that when deleting a page, or
>> adding a page, etc., the index and the page numbering  does not change. But
>> that could be that I do not understand Adobe. Five minutes is hardly enough
>> to learn to work with it.
>>
>>>
>>>
>> This would be a funciton of typesetting. The table of contents is indexed
>> to the document as it is typeset, not dynamically throughout its existence.
>> If you were to delete all the pages except for the table of contents, it
>> would still refer to all the same pages.
>>
>> If this is a necessary part of your workflow, then it sounds like a
>> WYSIWYG tool like Scribus or InDesign is more appropriate (unfortunately).
>>
>
> The problem is that my document already is finished. First I could just
> deliver a PDF file. Now they want to edit it themselves. Or can I generate
> from my tex file something that has the meta information and can be edited
> in Scribus?
>
>
Nope. As Mojca mentioned, PDF does not account for this kind of thing. I
mentioned those tools as a basis for constructing an entire document from
scratch. They have automatic page referencing similar to Context, but not in
a post-hoc fashion.

If they are only copy editing, I think you would be best served by exporting
to xhtml. I generally write all my documents in Markdown and convert using
Pandoc, so I'm not familiar with Context's xhtml capacities.

If they are doing layout.. Ouch.

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 John Haltiwanger <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>

> This would be a funciton of typesetting. The table of contents is indexed
> to the document as it is typeset, not dynamically throughout its existence.
> If you were to delete all the pages except for the table of contents, it
> would still refer to all the same pages.
>
> If this is a necessary part of your workflow, then it sounds like a WYSIWYG
> tool like Scribus or InDesign is more appropriate (unfortunately).
>
>>
>> The problem is that my document already is finished. First I could just
>> deliver a PDF file. Now they want to edit it themselves. Or can I generate
>> from my tex file something that has the meta information and can be edited
>> in Scribus?
>>
>>
> Nope. As Mojca mentioned, PDF does not account for this kind of thing. I
> mentioned those tools as a basis for constructing an entire document from
> scratch. They have automatic page referencing similar to Context, but not in
> a post-hoc fashion.
>
> If they are only copy editing, I think you would be best served by
> exporting to xhtml. I generally write all my documents in Markdown and
> convert using Pandoc, so I'm not familiar with Context's xhtml capacities.
>
> If they are doing layout.. Ouch.
>

I typesetted my document yes.  The client has to receive a deliverable this
weekend, so my stress hormones will be high the coming days. I have to count
my options and select the best. (Or least bad.)

Everyone thanks. And next time I want more information when starting writing
documentation.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Peter Münster]

On Thu, Jul 14 2011, Cecil Westerhof wrote:

> The problem is that my document already is finished. First I could just
> deliver a PDF file. Now they want to edit it themselves.

They could install context on their computer...

-- 
           Peter
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 19:17, Cecil Westerhof wrote:
>
> I typesetted my document yes.  The client has to receive a deliverable this
> weekend, so my stress hormones will be high the coming days. I have to count
> my options and select the best. (Or least bad.)

If there are tiny corrections to do they can just as well edit the
sources themselves (or send you corrections).

Mojca
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr>

> > The problem is that my document already is finished. First I could just
> > deliver a PDF file. Now they want to edit it themselves.
>
> They could install context on their computer...
>

They could, but they will not. Some facts of life are not easily changed.

To be honest I do not think it is a real solution. If I see how much work it
was for me to get things done and taking into account that I am a
command-line 'freak', you can not expect point and click people to do it.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/14 Mojca Miklavec <mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com>

> > I typesetted my document yes.  The client has to receive a deliverable
> this
> > weekend, so my stress hormones will be high the coming days. I have to
> count
> > my options and select the best. (Or least bad.)
>
> If there are tiny corrections to do they can just as well edit the
> sources themselves (or send you corrections).
>

That was as how I expected it to going to work. But (now) they want to be
completely independent. 'Everybody' should have the possibility to edit the
document. In hindsight it was properly the wrong decision to work with
ConTeXt. The quality of the document is high, but because of the shift in
requirements there is now a problem.

Well, I like a challenge. Now I got one. :-)

Maybe I should dedicate a page to this problem. I am taken by surprise, but
if I can circumvent others to have the same surprise ...

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Martin Schröder]

2011/7/14 John Haltiwanger <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>:
> Pandoc, so I'm not familiar with Context's xhtml capacities.

MkIV can create XML. :-)

Best
   Martin
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[John Haltiwanger]

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On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:

> 2011/7/14 John Haltiwanger <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>:
> > Pandoc, so I'm not familiar with Context's xhtml capacities.
>
> MkIV can create XML. :-)
>

That is something I have heard much more than I have seen.

If it can so easily do so, could a wizard please intervene and provide a
recipe for producing XHTML from standard Context input?[^1] I have no doubt
it can, but documentation of this relative necessity in this age of
multi-output publishing is suboptimal.[^2] I swear that this information
will go down throughout the ages as a conduit for better typography (and the
wiki page dedicated to this process will become a keystone of expanded
possibility in the future).

Cecil, I don't think its fair to constrain yourself from ever using Context
again. What does 'competely independent' mean?

If you have been asked to hand over layout decisions, the best is to
reproduce your document in XHTML, copy it into a word processor, and let
them proceed with their own desing in their proprietary WYSIWYG software.

Even if they just want to make textual changes, this is probably still be
your best bet. You can then relatively easily convert them back to Context
(a matter of re-mapping text into Context). There is a plan I have to
produce an easier-for-point-and-clickers interface to collaborate on high
quality Context based layouts, but the time hasn't appeared to materialize
it yet.

If you search through the archives for 'pandoc' you will see that many of us
have chosen to abstract ourselves from direct dependence on Context for our
document 'coding'. There is a tangible flexibility provided by writing in a
visually semantic preformat like Markdown. It helps during the editing
stages because it is easy to generate other formats that people are more
familiar with (OpenOffice can be converted to Word---then it is a matter of
'backporting' changes to the Context source).

If they weren't clear about planning to take on this design
responsibility--which they should have long before the deadline--than I feel
it is the fault of the editors and not the fault of Context. Under such
conditions I would have written text for these people in something they
understand, like an word processor document (LibreOffice can save as MS Word
easily enough).

Sorry to hear you are having trouble with this. I know what it is like to
face the edge of a deadline.

PS. For what it is worth, I do not think it would be _too_ hard to create a
Context to Markdown translator.[^3] Since the backend supports XML, it
should be able to map to a different semantic markup without much trouble..
right?

[^1]: No CSS necessary, just classes and/or ids mapped to environment names.
Apologies to anyone who has answered this question before: just point me
towards where the answer is and I will make sure it finds its way to a
prominent place on the wiki.

[^2]: I understand that there is a description at the wiki, but it is many
years old, maybe older than LuaTeX (the history says it is from 2007).
Something fresher is in order I think.


>
> Best
>    Martin
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Taco Hoekwater]

On 07/15/2011 02:15 AM, John Haltiwanger wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de
> <mailto:martin@oneiros.de>> wrote:
>
>     2011/7/14 John Haltiwanger <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com
>     <mailto:john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>>:
>      > Pandoc, so I'm not familiar with Context's xhtml capacities.
>
>     MkIV can create XML. :-)
>
>
> That is something I have heard much more than I have seen.
>
> If it can so easily do so, could a wizard please intervene and provide a
> recipe for producing XHTML from standard Context input?[^1]

   \setupbackend[export=yes,xhtml=yes,css=yes]

But it still has a few issues, so any problem reports are more than
welcome.
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/15 John Haltiwanger <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>

> Cecil, I don't think its fair to constrain yourself from ever using Context
> again.


That was not what I mend. When making my own stuff where I do not have the
need off interoperability I will keep using it. But in other case I should
evaluate the situation correctly. Between a rock an a hard place is not a
nice position. ;-}



> What does 'competely independent' mean?
>

Properly that anybody that knows how to write a document in Microsoft Office
can change the document. So standard software, with a low learning curve. I
had some problems getting them to accept to use Adobe. And now that turns
out to be not a real option. Learning all the time as Benny Hill said.



> If you have been asked to hand over layout decisions, the best is to
> reproduce your document in XHTML, copy it into a word processor, and let
> them proceed with their own desing in their proprietary WYSIWYG software.
>

No the problem is not the layout. They are satisfied with that. They just do
not want to be dependent on our company.



> Even if they just want to make textual changes, this is probably still be
> your best bet. You can then relatively easily convert them back to Context
> (a matter of re-mapping text into Context).
>

That sounds like a good plan. Converting back is properly not necessary. But
it would not hurt if it is possible.



> There is a plan I have to produce an easier-for-point-and-clickers
> interface to collaborate on high quality Context based layouts, but the time
> hasn't appeared to materialize it yet.
>

Sounds good. If I could be of help …



> If you search through the archives for 'pandoc' you will see that many of
> us have chosen to abstract ourselves from direct dependence on Context for
> our document 'coding'. There is a tangible flexibility provided by writing
> in a visually semantic preformat like Markdown. It helps during the editing
> stages because it is easy to generate other formats that people are more
> familiar with (OpenOffice can be converted to Word---then it is a matter of
> 'backporting' changes to the Context source).
>

I'll do that.



> If they weren't clear about planning to take on this design
> responsibility--which they should have long before the deadline--than I feel
> it is the fault of the editors and not the fault of Context. Under such
> conditions I would have written text for these people in something they
> understand, like an word processor document (LibreOffice can save as MS Word
> easily enough).
>

That is what I mend that in hindsight I should not have used ConTeXt. ;-}



> Sorry to hear you are having trouble with this. I know what it is like to
> face the edge of a deadline.
>

I'll survive, I always did. :-D

I have to thank this list for the help and support.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/15 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>

>    MkIV can create XML. :-)
>>
>>
>> That is something I have heard much more than I have seen.
>>
>> If it can so easily do so, could a wizard please intervene and provide a
>> recipe for producing XHTML from standard Context input?[^1]
>>
>
>  \setupbackend[export=yes,**xhtml=yes,css=yes]
>
> But it still has a few issues, so any problem reports are more than
> welcome.


I tried that, but it ends with:
pages           > flushing realpage 109, userpage 109
system          > end file documentatie at line 2618
 )</home/cecil/ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bolditalic.otf>{/home/cecil/ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/enc/dvips/lm/lm-mathsy.enc}</home/cecil/ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-bold.otf></home/cecil/ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/opentype/public/tex-gyre/texgyreheros-regular.otf></home/cecil/ConTeXt/tex/texmf/fonts/type1/public/lm/lmsy10.pfb>
backend         > export > finalizing
! LuaTeX error ...TeXt/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/back-exp.lua:328:
bad argument #2 to 'write' (string expected, got nil).

system          > tex > error on line 0 in file : LuaTeX error  ...

<empty file>

<*> ./documentatie

?

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Hans Hagen]

On 15-7-2011 10:35, Cecil Westerhof wrote:

> ! LuaTeX error ...TeXt/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/back-exp.lua:328:
> bad argument #2 to 'write' (string expected, got nil).

looks like you don't run the latest version

also, when using the export, make sure all your sectioning uses 
\start/\stop as in

\startchapter[title={...}]

\stopchapter


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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Andreas Schneider]

At Friday, 15.07.2011 on 10:17 Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> Properly that anybody that knows how to write a document in Microsoft Office
> can change the document. So standard software, with a low learning curve. I
> had some problems getting them to accept to use Adobe. And now that turns
> out to be not a real option. Learning all the time as Benny Hill said.

That's absolutely not true. MS Office Word has a pretty steep learning curve, people just neglect that and take it for a slightly more complex notepad. It's not, as can be seen be the loads of completely unprofessional done documents ... not consistent styles, no auto generated index, no cross references, no proper bibliography (where it applies), etc. (Hell, I even saw documents where footnotes where done [superscript] and numbered manually.)
That's exactly the problem with Word, Writer, etc., that people think it's an easy to use tool, just because it's WYSIWYG. If you don't know what you are doing, you WILL do it wrong, even (or especially) with such an "easy" tool as Word or Writer.

In contrast a tool like ConTeXt forces you to learn and therefore makes it a lot harder to f*ck up a document. I also did our technical documentation in ConTeXt, after porting it over from Word. My colleagues didn't know *TeX and still manage to change and enhance the document as needed. I provided the necessary platform (project structure, lua scripts etc.) so the document itself is only a frontend using easy-to-comprehend commands. I also built an installer that installs a specific ConTeXt Minimals version, the necessary modules, and a preconfigured TeXworks, so they don't even have to setup that or play around with proxy settings for firstsetup.bat.

Also with TeXworks it's already pretty WYSIWYG, imho. Change the code, hit "run", and see the result :)

> No the problem is not the layout. They are satisfied with that. They just do
> not want to be dependent on our company.

They don't have to. Give them ConTeXt, give them TeXworks, give them the source to the documents. Then they can do whatever they want.

> That is what I mend that in hindsight I should not have used ConTeXt. ;-}

Maybe, but if the customer/client didn't specify in advance, that they want it done in Word, how could you know? If you used Indesign or something else they would be f*cked too - because these tools are simply not meant to be used without learning first. (Although, as said earlier, Word and similar tools aren't meant to be used without learning too ... many people just think it is.)


Best Regards,
Andreas.
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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/15 Andreas Schneider <aksdb@gmx.de>

> At Friday, 15.07.2011 on 10:17 Cecil Westerhof wrote:
> > Properly that anybody that knows how to write a document in Microsoft
> Office
> > can change the document. So standard software, with a low learning curve.
> I
> > had some problems getting them to accept to use Adobe. And now that turns
> > out to be not a real option. Learning all the time as Benny Hill said.
>
> That's absolutely not true. MS Office Word has a pretty steep learning
> curve, people just neglect that and take it for a slightly more complex
> notepad. It's not, as can be seen be the loads of completely unprofessional
> done documents ... not consistent styles, no auto generated index, no cross
> references, no proper bibliography (where it applies), etc. (Hell, I even
> saw documents where footnotes where done [superscript] and numbered
> manually.)
> That's exactly the problem with Word, Writer, etc., that people think it's
> an easy to use tool, just because it's WYSIWYG. If you don't know what you
> are doing, you WILL do it wrong, even (or especially) with such an "easy"
> tool as Word or Writer.
>

I agree. But that is accepted practice. I find that most times it is more
important to generate something fast and then have to use a lot of time to
get things changed or right, then to setup things correctly (which takes
time) and in the future can change things faster, more efficient en more
consistent.

In a way I am even afraid that the better pleasing document I generated
could be pearls to the swines.



> Also with TeXworks it's already pretty WYSIWYG, imho. Change the code, hit
> "run", and see the result :)
>

Something to look into then.



> > No the problem is not the layout. They are satisfied with that. They just
> do
> > not want to be dependent on our company.
>
> They don't have to. Give them ConTeXt, give them TeXworks, give them the
> source to the documents. Then they can do whatever they want.
>

I'll give it a try.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Cecil Westerhof
<cldwesterhof@gmail.com> wrote:

> Properly that anybody that knows how to write a document in Microsoft Office
> can change the document. So standard software, with a low learning curve. I
> had some problems getting them to accept to use Adobe. And now that turns
> out to be not a real option. Learning all the time as Benny Hill said.
OpenOffice/ LibreOffice can import pdf files, and the user can edit.
I think you can setup fonts, at least, and the structure is not preserved;
also I'm not sure if all the features of pdf are supported , but maybe
you can give it a try.

> No the problem is not the layout. They are satisfied with that. They just do
> not want to be dependent on our company.
They are. They can install the software and use it to modify the
source and rebuild the pdf
Or they can pay another company to do so, or some independent designer.


-- 
luigi
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ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011, John Haltiwanger wrote:

> PS. For what it is worth, I do not think it would be _too_ hard to create a
> Context to Markdown translator.

Yes. A while back I did some tests (though I cannot find them now), and 
had most of the basic ConTeXt-to-markdown working (sections, blockquotes, 
typing, itemize, footnotes (via endnotes); but no tables and figures). The 
main idea was to *typeset* the output as you would expect a markdown 
documnet to be, and then use pdftotext to convert it to text. (Hans had 
mentioned this as a possible way to convert to HTML during TUG 2009).

Aditya


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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/18 Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu>

> On Thu, 14 Jul 2011, John Haltiwanger wrote:
>
>  PS. For what it is worth, I do not think it would be _too_ hard to create
>> a
>> Context to Markdown translator.
>>
>
> Yes. A while back I did some tests (though I cannot find them now), and had
> most of the basic ConTeXt-to-markdown working (sections, blockquotes,
> typing, itemize, footnotes (via endnotes); but no tables and figures). The
> main idea was to *typeset* the output as you would expect a markdown
> documnet to be, and then use pdftotext to convert it to text. (Hans had
> mentioned this as a possible way to convert to HTML during TUG 2009).
>

When you find them, I would be interested in them. And maybe I can improve
on them.

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[Martin Schröder]

2011/7/19 Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>:
> When you find them, I would be interested in them. And maybe I can improve
> on them.

Pandoc. :-)

Best
   Martin
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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[John Haltiwanger]

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On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:

> 2011/7/19 Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>:
> > When you find them, I would be interested in them. And maybe I can
> improve
> > on them.
>
>
Pandoc. :-)
>

Pandoc does not support Context as an input. Nor does it support modern mkIV
conventions (\startchapter..\stopchapter; \hyphenatedURL; etc).

If anyone knows Haskell, maybe we can submit some patches to Pandoc to
create a --mkiv switch for Context?

Don't get me wrong, I use Pandoc all the time. But it is not a panacea,
particularly for existing Context documents.



> Best
>    Martin
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[luigi scarso]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 12:41 PM, John Haltiwanger
<john.haltiwanger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:
>>
>> 2011/7/19 Cecil Westerhof <cldwesterhof@gmail.com>:
>> > When you find them, I would be interested in them. And maybe I can
>> > improve
>> > on them.
>>
>>
>> Pandoc. :-)
>
> Pandoc does not support Context as an input. Nor does it support modern mkIV
> conventions (\startchapter..\stopchapter; \hyphenatedURL; etc).
> If anyone knows Haskell, maybe we can submit some patches to Pandoc to
> create a --mkiv switch for Context?
I don't know haskell, but it sound like a good excuse to start.

-- 
luigi
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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[Cecil Westerhof]

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2011/7/19 luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>

> > Pandoc does not support Context as an input. Nor does it support modern
> mkIV
> > conventions (\startchapter..\stopchapter; \hyphenatedURL; etc).
> > If anyone knows Haskell, maybe we can submit some patches to Pandoc to
> > create a --mkiv switch for Context?
> I don't know haskell, but it sound like a good excuse to start.
>

I was thinking the same. ;-}

-- 
Cecil Westerhof

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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[Hans Hagen]

On 19-7-2011 12:46, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 12:41 PM, John Haltiwanger
> <john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Martin Schröder<martin@oneiros.de>  wrote:
>>>
>>> 2011/7/19 Cecil Westerhof<cldwesterhof@gmail.com>:
>>>> When you find them, I would be interested in them. And maybe I can
>>>> improve
>>>> on them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Pandoc. :-)
>>
>> Pandoc does not support Context as an input. Nor does it support modern mkIV
>> conventions (\startchapter..\stopchapter; \hyphenatedURL; etc).
>> If anyone knows Haskell, maybe we can submit some patches to Pandoc to
>> create a --mkiv switch for Context?
> I don't know haskell, but it sound like a good excuse to start.

it might be way easier to convert the xml export to pandoc because then 
users can still define commands (like special sectioning); otherwise you 
keep extending

Hans



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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[luigi scarso]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 19-7-2011 12:46, luigi scarso wrote:
>> I don't know haskell, but it sound like a good excuse to start.
>
> it might be way easier to convert the xml export to pandoc because then
> users can still define commands (like special sectioning); otherwise you
> keep extending
yes I know that as an excuse is a bit weak...


-- 
luigi
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Re: ConTeXt to Markdown (was Edit a ConTeXt generated document with Adobe Acrobat Professional)

[Khaled Hosny]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 02:37:33PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 19-7-2011 12:46, luigi scarso wrote:
> >On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 12:41 PM, John Haltiwanger
> ><john.haltiwanger@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Martin Schröder<martin@oneiros.de>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>2011/7/19 Cecil Westerhof<cldwesterhof@gmail.com>:
> >>>>When you find them, I would be interested in them. And maybe I can
> >>>>improve
> >>>>on them.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Pandoc. :-)
> >>
> >>Pandoc does not support Context as an input. Nor does it support modern mkIV
> >>conventions (\startchapter..\stopchapter; \hyphenatedURL; etc).
> >>If anyone knows Haskell, maybe we can submit some patches to Pandoc to
> >>create a --mkiv switch for Context?
> >I don't know haskell, but it sound like a good excuse to start.
> 
> it might be way easier to convert the xml export to pandoc because
> then users can still define commands (like special sectioning);
> otherwise you keep extending

Indeed, I was about to suggest the same. Handling xml exported by
ConTeXt avoids all the complexities of parsing TeX code and avoids the
need to only support some predefined subset of it (which is inevitable).

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Egyptian
 Arab
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