define vs setup

define vs setup

[Bill Meahan]

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I'm confused again. :\

When do you use a \defineSOMETHING instead of \setupSOMETHING ?

Must something be "\define"'ed before it is "\setup" or is it the other 
way around or is one required or one not or.... Reading the manual and 
wiki just leaves me more confused since examples are given which use one 
OR the other but don't seem to require both. Or am I missing something 
again.

Reading the pages for the individual commands doesn't help since it is 
often the case the page detailing the "\define" commands mostly seem
to imply "\define" inherits from "\setup".

Sigh.

-- 
Bill Meahan, Westland, Michigan USA

“Writing is a combination of intangible
   creative fantasy and appallingly
   hard work.”

           —Anthony Powell


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Re: define vs setup

[S Barmeier]

You can \setup what you \define|d yourself and \setup what is
pre\define|d, but not \setup something that is not \define|d.

Maybe ;)

Severin

On 07/26/2012 12:18 PM, Bill Meahan wrote:
> I'm confused again. :\
> 
> When do you use a \defineSOMETHING instead of \setupSOMETHING ?
> 
> Must something be "\define"'ed before it is "\setup" or is it the other
> way around or is one required or one not or.... Reading the manual and
> wiki just leaves me more confused since examples are given which use one
> OR the other but don't seem to require both. Or am I missing something
> again.
> 
> Reading the pages for the individual commands doesn't help since it is
> often the case the page detailing the "\define" commands mostly seem
> to imply "\define" inherits from "\setup".
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 

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Re: define vs setup

[Hans Hagen]

On 26-7-2012 05:21, S Barmeier wrote:
> You can \setup what you \define|d yourself and \setup what is
> pre\define|d, but not \setup something that is not \define|d.
>
> Maybe ;)

it depends .. often it's:

\definexx[whatever]
\definexx[whatever][settings]
\definexx[another][parent]
\definexx[another][parent][settings]

\setupxx[settings]
\setupxx[another][settings]
\setupxx[whatever][settings]

sometimes there are no defines because a feature is generic or global in 
nature. often a define generates a command (\whatever, \startwhatever), etc

btw, a redefine does not reset already set parameters (in mkii that is 
often the case but not in mkiv)

it all depends on what kind of functionality you're dealing with

Hans

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Re: define vs setup

[Bill Meahan]

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On 07/26/2012 04:13 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 26-7-2012 05:21, S Barmeier wrote:
>> You can \setup what you \define|d yourself and \setup what is
>> pre\define|d, but not \setup something that is not \define|d.
>>
>> Maybe ;)
>
> it depends .. often it's:
>
> \definexx[whatever]
> \definexx[whatever][settings]
> \definexx[another][parent]
> \definexx[another][parent][settings]
>
> \setupxx[settings]
> \setupxx[another][settings]
> \setupxx[whatever][settings]
>
> sometimes there are no defines because a feature is generic or global in
> nature. often a define generates a command (\whatever, \startwhatever), etc
>
> btw, a redefine does not reset already set parameters (in mkii that is
> often the case but not in mkiv)
>
> it all depends on what kind of functionality you're dealing with
>
> Hans
>

OK, let's deal with a specific use case.

I'm publisher/editor/reporter/photographer/mailer/janitor/coffeemaker 
for an organizational newsletter. I've done lots of other newsletters 
before but using DTP programs. I really want to use ConTeXt for this one
because the layout is (required to be) absolutely identical from one 
issue to the next.

Like a traditional newspaper, the front page will contain the masthead, 
headline and (for this one) a mandatory Privacy Act Notification. I'm 
virtually certain I can handle the three "special" bits using layers and
which will leave the margins and text area the same as the rest of the 
pages albeit with no header or footer. Hence, by definition, the front 
page is a makeup page for which the examples on the wiki are a bit, 
shall we say, sparse.

Without the makeup page, a \setuplayout [settings] works just 
wonderfully - I have a dummy with which I'm doing testing so I actually 
tried it. :)

Would I correctly, then, do the following:

% Global layout
\setuplayout
     [settings]

\definelayout
     [frontpage]
     [settings]   % Only those things that are different from the global

\definemakeup
     [frontpage]

% other definitions, fonts yadda, yadda, yadda

\starttext

\startmakeup [frontpage]
% place the layers

% content

\stopmakup

% continue content as required

\stoptext

Sorry for the length of this note but I thought it better to explain the 
whole thing upfront than in bits and pieces.

Thanks for all the help. I'm really loving ConTeXt but switching after
<mumble> years of using LaTeX and DTP programs is proving a little more 
of a challenge than I expected. Old dogs *can* learn new tricks but it 
takes a bit more work. :)

-- 
Bill Meahan, Westland, Michigan USA

“Writing is a combination of intangible
   creative fantasy and appallingly
   hard work.”

           —Anthony Powell


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Re: define vs setup

[Marco Patzer]

On 2012-07-26 Bill Meahan <wmeahan94@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

it's a typo:

> \stopmakup

\stopmakeup


Marco

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Re: define vs setup

[Bill Meahan]

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On 07/26/2012 11:34 AM, Marco Patzer wrote:
> On 2012-07-26 Bill Meahan <wmeahan94@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> it's a typo:
>
>> \stopmakup
>
> \stopmakeup
>

Sorry 'bout that. :)

I've never been a "good" typist even though I can dump a lot of text 
into a file in a short time. It *is* correct in my actual test file.


-- 
Bill Meahan, Westland, Michigan USA

“Writing is a combination of intangible
   creative fantasy and appallingly
   hard work.”

           —Anthony Powell


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Re: define vs setup

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Bill Meahan wrote:
>
> I really want to use ConTeXt for this one
> because the layout is (required to be) absolutely identical from one issue
> to the next.

There is one thing that I warmly suggest you to do, and that is making
"backups" of ConTeXt versions that you use for production. ConTeXt is
lightweight enough, so you can easily afford storing the versions you
use along with content, and then try to compile your documents both
with the latest & greatest version as well as some backup version,
just to make sure that everything is still perfectly fine in both.
MKII is stable, but MKIV is still a moving target and from time to
time one or the other thing changes (LaTeX is in a sense way more
stable, but on the other hand 99.9% of the time you have no chance
that anyone would implement any feature request to make your life
easier).

Mojca
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Re: define vs setup

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:15:31PM +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> LaTeX is in a sense way more stable

Which is mostly an illusion, packages do change all the time,
hyphenation patterns change, fonts change and engines change (even
pdfTeX), and unlike ConTeXt backups are much harder to take (short of
backing up your whole TeX Live installation).

Regards,
 Khaled
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