\quotation with yfrak-font?

\quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

In the following minimal example I'd like to get quotation 
marks around the "Nein!", but I don't:

------------------------------------------------------------
\starttext

\language[de]
\pdfmapline{yfrak <yfrak.pfb}
\definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]

\YfrakFont
Zu meinem Vorschlag sagte das: M*adchen: \quotation{Nein!}

\stoptext
-----------------------------------------------------------

Please, what is wrong?
I fear Wolfgangs suggestion wouldn't work either in the yfrak case:

-----------------------------------------------------------
\starttext

\symbol[leftquotation]Left \symbol[leftquote]middle\symbol[rightquote] right\symbol[rightquotation]

\language[de]

\symbol[leftquotation]Left \symbol[leftquote]middle\symbol[rightquote] right\symbol[rightquotation]

\pdfmapline{yfrak <yfrak.pfb}
\definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]
\YfrakFont

\setuplanguage
  [de]
  [leftquote=›,
   rightquote=‹,
   leftquotation=»,
   rightquotation=«]

\symbol[leftquotation]Nein! \symbol[leftquote]Nein!\symbol[rightquote] Nein!\symbol[rightquotation]

\stoptext
-----------------------------------------------------------

As context version I'm using:
ConTeXt  ver: 2013.06.10 22:51 MKIV beta  fmt: 2013.6.21  int: english/english

Rudolf

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 22.12.2013 um 11:26 schrieb Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de>:

> 
> In the following minimal example I'd like to get quotation 
> marks around the "Nein!", but I don't:
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> \starttext
> 
> \language[de]
> \pdfmapline{yfrak <yfrak.pfb}
> \definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]
> 
> \YfrakFont
> Zu meinem Vorschlag sagte das: M*adchen: \quotation{Nein!}
> 
> \stoptext
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Please, what is wrong?

The font is wrong, I compared the afm and pub files of the font and the information
about the position of the quotation marks in the afm file and pub file don’t match.

I suggest to use a font in TrueType or OpenType [1] format which works with less problems.

[1] http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net

Wolfgang

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 12:38:58PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> 
> Am 22.12.2013 um 11:26 schrieb Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de>:
> 
> > 
> > In the following minimal example I'd like to get quotation 
> > marks around the "Nein!", but I don't:
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > \starttext
> > 
> > \language[de]
> > \pdfmapline{yfrak <yfrak.pfb}
> > \definefont[YfrakFont][yfrak at 11pt]
> > 
> > \YfrakFont
> > Zu meinem Vorschlag sagte das: M*adchen: \quotation{Nein!}
> > 
> > \stoptext
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Please, what is wrong?
> 
> The font is wrong, I compared the afm and pub files of the font and the information
> about the position of the quotation marks in the afm file and pub file don’t match.
> 
> I suggest to use a font in TrueType or OpenType [1] format which works with less problems.
> 
> [1] http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net
> 
Hello Wolfgang,

thank you for your hints!
I looked up "unifraktur" and many, many others and could learn what you meant with 
"less problems".
Nearly all of the hundreds of fraktur-fonts in the world have problems, as reported by the
program "fontforge". But even worse, mostly there is a lack of umlauts, 2 of 3 needed 
different "s" and a lack of ligatures. And only very, very few of them have in addition to 
the normal umlauts written with double points umlauts with a small "e" above instead.

So, I returned to yfrak.pfb and ysmfrak.pfb and built my own "\glqq" and "\grqq", out
of apostrophs, doubling, mirroring and lowering them.
Sometimes there is a need to do so, but generally, of course, I prefere to use \quotation{...}!

Greetings, Rudolf

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2013-12-25 um 17:25 schrieb Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de>:

> Nearly all of the hundreds of fraktur-fonts in the world have problems, as reported by the
> program "fontforge". But even worse, mostly there is a lack of umlauts, 2 of 3 needed 
> different "s" and a lack of ligatures. And only very, very few of them have in addition to 
> the normal umlauts written with double points umlauts with a small "e" above instead.

Usable fraktur fonts with e-umlauts, long s and a set of ligatures I found in my collection only:

- Bastarda-K, probably by Manfred Klein
- Unifraktur Maguntia, see http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net/maguntia.html

(Without e-umlauts there are a lot more.)

Perhaps you should try to fix the y fonts with Fontforge.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

Hello Hraban,

thank you for answering!

The Fraktur fonts differ in many things from each other. I forgot to mention
the feature of automatic choice of ligatures when they appear in the text. So it's a matter of
not to be forced to change too much in a given text. I solved my problem within 10 minutes by
creating my own \glqq and \grqq. Next time I will strive for a solution with \quotation{...}.

Greetings, Rudolf

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 02:27:10PM +0600, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Am 2013-12-25 um 17:25 schrieb Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de>:
> 
> > Nearly all of the hundreds of fraktur-fonts in the world have problems, as reported by the
> > program "fontforge". But even worse, mostly there is a lack of umlauts, 2 of 3 needed 
> > different "s" and a lack of ligatures. And only very, very few of them have in addition to 
> > the normal umlauts written with double points umlauts with a small "e" above instead.
> 
> Usable fraktur fonts with e-umlauts, long s and a set of ligatures I found in my collection only:
> 
> - Bastarda-K, probably by Manfred Klein
> - Unifraktur Maguntia, see http://unifraktur.sourceforge.net/maguntia.html
> 
> (Without e-umlauts there are a lot more.)
> 
> Perhaps you should try to fix the y fonts with Fontforge.
> 
> 
> Greetlings, Hraban
> ---
> http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net
> https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

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Am 26.12.2013 um 19:56 schrieb Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de>:

> Hello Hraban,
> 
> thank you for answering!
> 
> The Fraktur fonts differ in many things from each other. I forgot to mention
> the feature of automatic choice of ligatures when they appear in the text. So it's a matter of
> not to be forced to change too much in a given text. I solved my problem within 10 minutes by
> creating my own \glqq and \grqq. Next time I will strive for a solution with \quotation{…}.


Have you tried the unifraktur fonts, as you can see on the website the font has features to change
the umlauts and also to replace the normal s with the long s.

\definefontfamily[mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]

\setupbodyfont[mainface]

\definefontfeature [longs]     [cv11=yes]
\definefontfeature [diaeresis] [cv15=yes]

\mainlanguage[de]

\starttext

\input knuth

schönstes – {\feature[+][longs]schönstes}

ſchön Üben – {\feature[+][diaeresis]ſchön Üben}

\quotation{Quoted text}

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 08:49:30PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> 
> Have you tried the unifraktur fonts, as you can see on the website the font has features to change
> the umlauts and also to replace the normal s with the long s.
> 
> \definefontfamily[mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
> 
> \setupbodyfont[mainface]
> 
> \definefontfeature [longs]     [cv11=yes]
> \definefontfeature [diaeresis] [cv15=yes]
> 
> \mainlanguage[de]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \input knuth
> 
> schönstes – {\feature[+][longs]schönstes}
> 
> ſchön Üben – {\feature[+][diaeresis]ſchön Üben}
> 
> \quotation{Quoted text}
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> Wolfgang


This is the answer of my context (version: 2013.05.28 00:36):

l.2 \definefontfamily
                   [mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
? h
The control sequence at the end of the top line
of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have ...


I don't know, whether there apply in English texts the same rules as in German ones with respect 
to Fraktur or similar fonts.
The written Knuth text (in the .pdf-file) would contain some right "s" at end of words and syllabs 
as in "Thus", "components", "activities" or the third "s" in successfull, but the rest of all the 
other "s" would be wrong. 
I know that many people write German texts in this manner, because they don't know it better, and 
perhaps it's allowed in English texts, I don't know, but it's rather ugly in German ones.

In yfrak I have to describe in a special manner end "s" and umlauts with a little "e" 
on top too, but its very easy and short: 
middle "s" = "s", the normal one,
end    "s" = "s:"
       "ä" = "ä" or "*a", "ö" = "ö" or "*o" and so forth.
The only error is that \quotation{...} is not possible. Perhaps yfrak will be repaired one day.

Ok, I admit, it would be possible to write a text with the right characters in Unifraktur Maguntia,
but with what expense!

I tried Unifraktur Maguntia after having it transcoded into .otf by fontforge and saw, that
\quotation{...} worked well. As I see now the transfering into .otf wasn't necessary. I will 
preserve your above example. Thanks, Wolfgang.

Rudolf

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2013-12-27 um 04:18 schrieb Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de>:

> In yfrak I have to describe in a special manner end "s" and umlauts with a little "e" 
> on top too, but its very easy and short: 
> middle "s" = "s", the normal one,
> end    "s" = "s:"
>       "ä" = "ä" or "*a", "ö" = "ö" or "*o" and so forth.
> The only error is that \quotation{...} is not possible. Perhaps yfrak will be repaired one day.

Then just type in (or copy and paste) your long s directly: ſ
We live in Unicode land nowadays, you know. ;-)

Since yfrak has no automatic replacement either, it’s surely not more complicated.
(Might be interesting to find a mechanism, like for hyphenation or ligatures, that at least does it right most of the time.)

And I’m pretty sure you don’t change umlaut variants all the time, so one setup in your environment or preamble is also no hassle.
A setup or switch is even better (more flexible) than yfraks ugly hardcoded input.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

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Am 26.12.2013 um 23:18 schrieb Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de>:

> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 08:49:30PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>> 
>> Have you tried the unifraktur fonts, as you can see on the website the font has features to change
>> the umlauts and also to replace the normal s with the long s.
>> 
>> \definefontfamily[mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
>> 
>> \setupbodyfont[mainface]
>> 
>> \definefontfeature [longs]     [cv11=yes]
>> \definefontfeature [diaeresis] [cv15=yes]
>> 
>> \mainlanguage[de]
>> 
>> \starttext
>> 
>> \input knuth
>> 
>> schönstes – {\feature[+][longs]schönstes}
>> 
>> ſchön Üben – {\feature[+][diaeresis]ſchön Üben}
>> 
>> \quotation{Quoted text}
>> 
>> \stoptext
>> 
>> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> This is the answer of my context (version: 2013.05.28 00:36):
> 
> l.2 \definefontfamily
>                   [mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
> ? h
> The control sequence at the end of the top line
> of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have …

Replace the \definefontfamily line with

  \definetypeface [mainface] [rm] [specserif] [Unifraktur Maguntia] [default]

because the new font command was added last autumn and your TeXLive installation
uses a older context version (not sure if the \feature command exists there).

> I don't know, whether there apply in English texts the same rules as in German ones with respect 
> to Fraktur or similar fonts.
> The written Knuth text (in the .pdf-file) would contain some right "s" at end of words and syllabs 
> as in "Thus", "components", "activities" or the third "s" in successfull, but the rest of all the 
> other "s" would be wrong. 

What do you expect from a text with doesn’t contain any long s in the input.

Maybe your expecting from context to make the right choice for the s but there
are cases where you won’t get the correct output and manual correction
is necessary.

Wolfgang

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Re: \quotation with yfrak-font?

[Rudolf Bahr]

> > On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 08:49:30PM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > This is the answer of my context (version: 2013.05.28 00:36):
> > 
> > l.2 \definefontfamily
> >                   [mainface][rm][Unifraktur Maguntia]
> > ? h
> > The control sequence at the end of the top line
> > of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have …

> 
> Replace the \definefontfamily line with
> 
>   \definetypeface [mainface] [rm] [specserif] [Unifraktur Maguntia] [default]
> 
> because the new font command was added last autumn and your TeXLive installation
> uses a older context version (not sure if the \feature command exists there).
> 

Yes, your suggested replacement works well! Thank you.


> > I don't know, whether there apply in English texts the same rules as in German ones with respect 
> > to Fraktur or similar fonts.
> > The written Knuth text (in the .pdf-file) would contain some right "s" at end of words and syllabs 
> > as in "Thus", "components", "activities" or the third "s" in successfull, but the rest of all the 
> > other "s" would be wrong. 
> 
> What do you expect from a text with doesn’t contain any long s in the input.
> 
> Maybe your expecting from context to make the right choice for the s but there
> are cases where you won’t get the correct output and manual correction
> is necessary.

No, I don't expect contex to make the right choice for me instead! That won't be possible, 
of course: It ought to know, where syllables end. But then ... I'm asking me, why did you 
send me this Knuth-text with many wrong "s"es and without any quotation at all?

Let's finish the discussion here. The subject was: "\quotation with yfrak-font?" and
we went off course. I thank you, Wolfgang and Hraban, for having answered!

Happy New Year to all contexters in the world!

Rudolf
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