From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/88138 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan BRASLAU Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Bibliography: criterium=all Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:15:56 +0200 Organization: CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC Message-ID: <20140716171556.10bd4dae@iram-ha-003840.extra.cea.fr> References: <53C58F84.6080406@wxs.nl> <53C62AC9.9000703@wxs.nl> <53C642B6.4080004@wxs.nl> <53C64B4F.4000108@wxs.nl> <20140716135919.2a643253@iram-ha-003840.extra.cea.fr> <53C673CB.9090106@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1405523783 24086 80.91.229.3 (16 Jul 2014 15:16:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 15:16:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: ntg-context@ntg.nl, Hans Hagen To: Rob Heusdens Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Wed Jul 16 17:16:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1X7QwL-0006WH-6Y for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:16:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0517310288 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:16:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id TyiXKk6IGwyl for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:16:16 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1872110220 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:16:09 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26592101E3 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:16:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id oAGuxf+E+jtr for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:16:00 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from filter1-til.mf.surf.net (filter1-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.217]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B471101E2 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:16:00 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by filter1-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s6GFFvpN014661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:15:59 +0200 Original-Received: from epeire2.extra.cea.fr (epeire2.extra.cea.fr [132.167.198.32]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id s6GFFuRY006159; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:15:56 +0200 Original-Received: from epeire2.extra.cea.fr (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id ACAEE54D3A0; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:15:56 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from orpin2.extra.cea.fr (orpin2.extra.cea.fr [132.167.198.5]) by epeire2.extra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A510B54D39E; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:15:56 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from iram-ha-003840.extra.cea.fr (iram-ha-003840.extra.cea.fr [132.166.25.152]) by orpin2.extra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id s6GFFutD011904; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 17:15:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <53C673CB.9090106@wxs.nl> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.10.1 (GTK+ 2.24.22; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) X-Bayes-Prob: 0.495 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=132.168.224.8; country=FR; region=Essonne; city=Gif-sur-Yvette; latitude=48.7167; longitude=2.1333; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=48.7167,2.1333&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0RMr3fVld - a27fae8ea8cf - 20140716 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 194.171.167.217 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:88138 Archived-At: BibTeX was one approach that is somewhat a standard. There are other bibliography database file formats such as EndNote, RIS, and many others. From an academic researcher's point of view, one practical point is the accessibility of bibliographical data. Many websites, both public as well as paying can output to these formats, so we use them. Hans has undertaken a lua reimplementation of using these bibliography database files. BibTeX as a program is no longer used in the new bibliography macros. Our use of the bibliography database is far from covering all of the possibilities of the BibTeX program, but we are building it up with functionality that we find necessary. The performance appears to be quite satisfactory and the flexibility of being able to program in lua has allowed Hans to fairly easily provide whatever crazy functionality that we have thrown at him so far! Maybe, as you suggest, a real relational database approach would be useful. As long as it does not become too complicated and not impose important dependencies. I am not a specialist on these issues so I do not have any real opinion, though. Alan On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:44:59 +0200 Hans Hagen wrote: > On 7/16/2014 2:24 PM, Rob Heusdens wrote: > > Hello, > > > > This is more a 'side-comment', but anytime I see an application > > that wants in fact to query data from some dataresource, I ask > > myself: why is that not implemented as a real relational database? > > > > BibTex is some weird implementation for a problem that in facts > > requests a real relational dababase approach, in which your data > > does not reside in a file, but a couple of tables. Like PUBLISHER > > (the organisation that publishes the article/book/journal, etc.), > > PUBLICATION, EDITION, AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR (a person making a > > contribution to a PUBLICATION, like author, co-author, editor) etc. > > > > For example: every author that has contributed to a publication (or > > edition thereof) has only one record in the AUTHOR table, and for > > each contribution to a PUBLICATION/EDITION there is a record in the > > CONTRIBUTION table, with the foreign keys to the primary key of > > AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR and to the PUBLICATION/EDITION table. > > > > A data-model for such must exist in the real-world, somewhere, I > > guess. But Tex and other implementors have choosen to implement > > this in a simple flat-file system, and which I think is part of the > > problem, because the implemenation as flat file has certain limits. > > Esp. when more demanding features are requested. > > > > Still thinking that ultimately that would be the best way to > > implement BibTex, using a relational database as repository instead > > of flat files. And you could implement many other 'nice' featueres, > > like querying other works related to the works you want to cite > > (for instance at the basis of relevant key/reference words or > > other). > > > > Would be do-able I guess (LuaTex can access dabatases), only > > problem is you have to convert al these .bib files into the > > database format. > > > > But don't know if anyone has thought about implementing Bibtex as a > > database. > > the main problem there is that normally authors collect their own > bibentries and that bib has become sort of a standard ... i have no > problem with a database approach but it would also mean normalizing > (e.g. get rid of tex stuff in bib entries) and so > > technically it's no problem but politically ... > > (similar arguments can be given for math habit and so) > > with context we're not too bound to such 'standards' but we can't > ignore them (and therefore support them); the bib implementation is > flexible enough to be extended but in order to get a database > approach done a reasonable set of users need to carry it > > (there are some search options built in btw) ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________