* wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?
@ 2018-10-13 8:05 Pablo Rodriguez
2018-10-13 9:05 ` Thomas A. Schmitz
2018-10-30 14:42 ` Arthur Reutenauer
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-13 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Dear list,
I have the following sample:
\mainlanguage[agr]
\setupbodyfont[dejavu]
\starttext
\startTEXpage[offset=2em]
\hyphenatedword{πρᾶγμα πράγματος}
\stopTEXpage
\stoptext
that ouputs:
πρᾶ-γμα πρά-γμα-τος
As far as I know, two consonants in ancient Greek aren’t hyphenated,
when they may begin a word.
Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ
has no word that begins with γμ.
Am I missing something or should this be improved in the hyphenation
patterns?
Many thanks for your help,
Pablo
--
http://www.ousia.tk
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-13 8:05 wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-13 9:05 ` Thomas A. Schmitz 2018-10-13 9:49 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-15 8:44 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2018-10-30 14:42 ` Arthur Reutenauer 1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Thomas A. Schmitz @ 2018-10-13 9:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 13.10.2018 10:05, Pablo Rodriguez wrote: > As far as I know, two consonants in ancient Greek aren’t hyphenated, > when they may begin a word. > > Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ > has no word that begins with γμ. > > Am I missing something or should this be improved in the hyphenation > patterns? You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit in lang-agr.lua and to see more with \enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns] but failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion? Thomas ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-13 9:05 ` Thomas A. Schmitz @ 2018-10-13 9:49 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-13 12:32 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-15 8:48 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2018-10-15 8:44 ` Arthur Reutenauer 1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-13 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context On 10/13/18 11:05 AM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: > On 13.10.2018 10:05, Pablo Rodriguez wrote: >> [...] >> Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ >> has no word that begins with γμ. > > You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit > in lang-agr.lua and to see more with > > \enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns] > > but failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion? I have just discovered that LuaLaTeX (from the TeX Live version that comes with Fedora 32) does exactly the same with ancient Greek (hyphenation is fine in modern polytonic Greek). Just in case it helps, Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-13 9:49 ` Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-13 12:32 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-15 8:48 ` Arthur Reutenauer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-13 12:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context On 10/13/18 11:49 AM, Pablo Rodriguez wrote: > On 10/13/18 11:05 AM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: >> On 13.10.2018 10:05, Pablo Rodriguez wrote: >>> [...] >>> Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ >>> has no word that begins with γμ. >> >> You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit >> in lang-agr.lua and to see more with >> >> \enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns] >> >> but failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion? > > I have just discovered that LuaLaTeX (from the TeX Live version that > comes with Fedora 32) Of course, I meant Fedora 28. Fedora 32 should be released in 2020. Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-13 9:49 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-13 12:32 ` Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-15 8:48 ` Arthur Reutenauer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2018-10-15 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 11:49:31AM +0200, Pablo Rodriguez wrote: > I have just discovered that LuaLaTeX (from the TeX Live version that > comes with Fedora 32) does exactly the same with ancient Greek > (hyphenation is fine in modern polytonic Greek). All the TeX engines and formats use hyphenation pattern files that derive from a common repository that Mojca and I maintain (although I see that ConTeXt’s are slightly outdated), nothing strange here. Best, Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-13 9:05 ` Thomas A. Schmitz 2018-10-13 9:49 ` Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-15 8:44 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2018-10-15 13:04 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2018-10-15 14:52 ` Pablo Rodriguez 1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2018-10-15 8:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 11:05:01AM +0200, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: > You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit in > lang-agr.lua and to see more with > > \enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns] > > failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion? Ah, I was going for a title that inspired more awe, like “Emperor of Hyphenation”, but guru will do for the time being :-) The reason you can’t find any obvious culprit is because you need to look at the patterns that are missing: taking πράγματσς as an example, the matching patterns are .π4 ά1 α1 ο1 4ς. that allow a break after any vowel and prohibit breaks after the first letter and before the last letter in the word (which is relevant because \lefthyphenmin and \righthyphenmin are both set to 1). Since these are the only patterns that apply, the possible hyphenation points are thus πρά-γμα-τος Digging deeper in the pattern file, you’ll see that it takes quite many two-consonant clusters into account, starting at line 267 of the master file in the repository, with a comment “other divisable consonant combinations” (https://github.com/hyphenation/tex-hyphen/blob/82e5651/hyph-utf8/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-grc.tex#L267): 2β1γ 2β1ζ 2β1θ 2β1κ ... 2γ1θ 2γ1κ 2γ1ξ 2γ1π ... You can see that γμ is not there (nor, of course, γν, which was expected). If it was, the pattern 2γ1μ would force the break πράγ-μα, hence its absence leads me to believe that the breaks before γμ are intentional. I suggest you contact Dimitrios Filippou, the main author of the patterns, to ask if it was somehow an oversight or if he was following a different rule (email address at the top of the file linked to, in a slightly obfuscated form). Best, Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-15 8:44 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2018-10-15 13:04 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2018-10-15 14:52 ` Pablo Rodriguez 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2018-10-15 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 2018-10-15 um 10:44 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>: > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 11:05:01AM +0200, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: >> failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion? > > Ah, I was going for a title that inspired more awe, like “Emperor of > Hyphenation”, but guru will do for the time being :-) I thought you were the hat of hyphenation. Best, Hraban ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-15 8:44 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2018-10-15 13:04 ` Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2018-10-15 14:52 ` Pablo Rodriguez 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Pablo Rodriguez @ 2018-10-15 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context On 10/15/18 10:44 AM, Arthur Reutenauer wrote: > [...] > You can see that γμ is not there (nor, of course, γν, which was > expected). If it was, the pattern 2γ1μ would force the break πράγ-μα, > hence its absence leads me to believe that the breaks before γμ are > intentional. I suggest you contact Dimitrios Filippou, the main author > of the patterns, to ask if it was somehow an oversight or if he was > following a different rule (email address at the top of the file linked > to, in a slightly obfuscated form). Many thanks for your reply, Arthur. I’m going to contact Dimitrios to check what is going on here. Pablo -- http://www.ousia.tk ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? 2018-10-13 8:05 wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-13 9:05 ` Thomas A. Schmitz @ 2018-10-30 14:42 ` Arthur Reutenauer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2018-10-30 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:05:15AM +0200, Pablo Rodriguez wrote: > πρᾶ-γμα πρά-γμα-τος > > As far as I know, two consonants in ancient Greek aren’t hyphenated, > when they may begin a word. > > Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ > has no word that begins with γμ. > > Am I missing something or should this be improved in the hyphenation > patterns? Since we’ve continued that discussion off list, I’d like to mention our conclusion, which is that the patterns shouldn’t be changed, since they follow a somewhat different rule, where a few additional consonant clusters receive the same treatment as γν. That rule is documented in William Goodwin’s Greek grammar, §97: https://archive.org/details/greekgrammar00gooduoft/page/24 Thomas pointed out that Goodwin’s statement that his rule was “based on ancient tradition” is not very convincing, and that different behaviours are possible, but the one reported by Pablo above is documented and intentional. Best, Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-10-30 14:42 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2018-10-13 8:05 wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek? Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-13 9:05 ` Thomas A. Schmitz 2018-10-13 9:49 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-13 12:32 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-15 8:48 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2018-10-15 8:44 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2018-10-15 13:04 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2018-10-15 14:52 ` Pablo Rodriguez 2018-10-30 14:42 ` Arthur Reutenauer
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