wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

Dear list,

I have the following sample:

    \mainlanguage[agr]
    \setupbodyfont[dejavu]
    \starttext
    \startTEXpage[offset=2em]
    \hyphenatedword{πρᾶγμα πράγματος}
    \stopTEXpage
    \stoptext

that ouputs:

    πρᾶ-γμα πρά-γμα-τος

As far as I know, two consonants in ancient Greek aren’t hyphenated,
when they may begin a word.

Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ
has no word that begins with γμ.

Am I missing something or should this be improved in the hyphenation
patterns?

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 13.10.2018 10:05, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
> As far as I know, two consonants in ancient Greek aren’t hyphenated,
> when they may begin a word.
> 
> Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ
> has no word that begins with γμ.
> 
> Am I missing something or should this be improved in the hyphenation
> patterns?

You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit 
in lang-agr.lua and to see more with

\enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns]

but failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion?

Thomas
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 10/13/18 11:05 AM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> On 13.10.2018 10:05, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
>> [...]
>> Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ
>> has no word that begins with γμ.
> 
> You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit 
> in lang-agr.lua and to see more with
> 
> \enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns]
> 
> but failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion?

I have just discovered that LuaLaTeX (from the TeX Live version that
comes with Fedora 32) does exactly the same with ancient Greek
(hyphenation is fine in modern polytonic Greek).

Just in case it helps,

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 10/13/18 11:49 AM, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
> On 10/13/18 11:05 AM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>> On 13.10.2018 10:05, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ
>>> has no word that begins with γμ.
>>
>> You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit 
>> in lang-agr.lua and to see more with
>>
>> \enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns]
>>
>> but failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion?
> 
> I have just discovered that LuaLaTeX (from the TeX Live version that
> comes with Fedora 32)

Of course, I meant Fedora 28. Fedora 32 should be released in 2020.

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 11:05:01AM +0200, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> You're right, this shouldn't happen. I tried in vain to find the culprit in
> lang-agr.lua and to see more with
> 
> \enabletrackers[hyphenator.visualize,hyphenator.steps,languages.patterns]
> 
>     failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion?

  Ah, I was going for a title that inspired more awe, like “Emperor of
Hyphenation”, but guru will do for the time being :-)

  The reason you can’t find any obvious culprit is because you need to
look at the patterns that are missing: taking πράγματσς as an example,
the matching patterns are

	.π4 ά1 α1 ο1 4ς.

that allow a break after any vowel and prohibit breaks after the first
letter and before the last letter in the word (which is relevant because
\lefthyphenmin and \righthyphenmin are both set to 1).  Since these are
the only patterns that apply, the possible hyphenation points are thus

	πρά-γμα-τος

  Digging deeper in the pattern file, you’ll see that it takes quite
many two-consonant clusters into account, starting at line 267 of the
master file in the repository, with a comment “other divisable consonant
combinations” (https://github.com/hyphenation/tex-hyphen/blob/82e5651/hyph-utf8/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-grc.tex#L267):

  2β1γ 2β1ζ 2β1θ 2β1κ ... 2γ1θ 2γ1κ 2γ1ξ 2γ1π ...

  You can see that γμ is not there (nor, of course, γν, which was
expected).  If it was, the pattern 2γ1μ would force the break πράγ-μα,
hence its absence leads me to believe that the breaks before γμ are
intentional.  I suggest you contact Dimitrios Filippou, the main author
of the patterns, to ask if it was somehow an oversight or if he was
following a different rule (email address at the top of the file linked
to, in a slightly obfuscated form).

	Best,

		Arthur
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 11:49:31AM +0200, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
> I have just discovered that LuaLaTeX (from the TeX Live version that
> comes with Fedora 32) does exactly the same with ancient Greek
> (hyphenation is fine in modern polytonic Greek).

  All the TeX engines and formats use hyphenation pattern files that
derive from a common repository that Mojca and I maintain (although I
see that ConTeXt’s are slightly outdated), nothing strange here.

	Best,

		Arthur
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2018-10-15 um 10:44 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>:

> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 11:05:01AM +0200, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>>    failed. Arthur is the guru here, so maybe he has a suggestion?
> 
>  Ah, I was going for a title that inspired more awe, like “Emperor of
> Hyphenation”, but guru will do for the time being :-)

I thought you were the hat of hyphenation.

Best, Hraban
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 10/15/18 10:44 AM, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> [...] 
>   You can see that γμ is not there (nor, of course, γν, which was
> expected).  If it was, the pattern 2γ1μ would force the break πράγ-μα,
> hence its absence leads me to believe that the breaks before γμ are
> intentional.  I suggest you contact Dimitrios Filippou, the main author
> of the patterns, to ask if it was somehow an oversight or if he was
> following a different rule (email address at the top of the file linked
> to, in a slightly obfuscated form).

Many thanks for your reply, Arthur.

I’m going to contact Dimitrios to check what is going on here.

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: wrong hyphenation in ancient Greek?

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:05:15AM +0200, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:
>     πρᾶ-γμα πρά-γμα-τος
> 
> As far as I know, two consonants in ancient Greek aren’t hyphenated,
> when they may begin a word.
> 
> Γν may be the beginning of word in Greek (such as γνῶσις), but even LSJ
> has no word that begins with γμ.
> 
> Am I missing something or should this be improved in the hyphenation
> patterns?

  Since we’ve continued that discussion off list, I’d like to mention
our conclusion, which is that the patterns shouldn’t be changed, since
they follow a somewhat different rule, where a few additional consonant
clusters receive the same treatment as γν.  That rule is documented in
William Goodwin’s Greek grammar, §97:

	https://archive.org/details/greekgrammar00gooduoft/page/24

  Thomas pointed out that Goodwin’s statement that his rule was “based
on ancient tradition” is not very convincing, and that different
behaviours are possible, but the one reported by Pablo above is
documented and intentional.

	Best,

		Arthur
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