suggestions for MKIV

suggestions for MKIV

[Peter Münster]

Hello Hans,

Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
to change at least 2 things:

- let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
  in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
  (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)

- let align=left|right behave correctly

Cheers, Peter

-- 
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/


___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: suggestions for MKIV

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi Peter,

Peter Münster wrote:
> Hello Hans,
> 
> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
> to change at least 2 things:
> 
> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
>   in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
>   (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)

I have no very strong feelings about this one, but note that
such a change would mean a small loss of functionality.
(staying in vmode is not the same as \indent ...\par)

 > - let align=left|right behave correctly

Switching the meaning of keywords that have existed for more than
a decade does not seem wise to me. If something has to be done,
then I would prefer scratching those two works altogether.

But practically, we already have

  align=flushleft|flushright

and the manuals should document these instead of bare left|right.

Best wishes,
Taco

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: suggestions for MKIV

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 19.08.2009 um 14:41 schrieb Peter Münster:

> Hello Hans,
>
> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there  
> are
> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of  
> beginners -
> to change at least 2 things:
>
> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and  
> \includegraphics
>  in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
>  (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)


no, no and no!

\starttext
\placefigure{centered?}{\framed{vmode}}
\placefigure{centered?}{\dontleavehmode\framed{hmode}}
\stoptext

Wolfgang

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: suggestions for MKIV

[Hans Hagen]

Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> Peter Münster wrote:
>> Hello Hans,
>>
>> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
>> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
>> to change at least 2 things:
>>
>> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
>>   in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
>>   (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
> 
> I have no very strong feelings about this one, but note that
> such a change would mean a small loss of functionality.
> (staying in vmode is not the same as \indent ...\par)

indeed. changing externalgraphic might be harmless (btw, normally it's 
never uses inline) but changing \framed is to tricky as it's a core 
macro used all over the place

>  > - let align=left|right behave correctly
> 
> Switching the meaning of keywords that have existed for more than
> a decade does not seem wise to me. If something has to be done,
> then I would prefer scratching those two works altogether.
> 
> But practically, we already have
> 
>   align=flushleft|flushright
> 
> and the manuals should document these instead of bare left|right.

indeed



-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: suggestions for MKIV

[Peter Münster]

On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> > Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
> > already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
> > to change at least 2 things:
> > 
> > - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
> > in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
> > (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
> 
> no, no and no!
> 
> \starttext
> \placefigure{centered?}{\framed{vmode}}
> \placefigure{centered?}{\dontleavehmode\framed{hmode}}
> \stoptext

Hello Wolfgang,

I remember well your example. And again, it's more intuitive, if

               \placefigure{centered?}{test}
and
               \placefigure{centered?}{\framed{test}}
and
               \placefigure{centered?}{test \framed{test} test}

would behave the *same* way.


There is no real problem for *me*, but it's very difficult to explain to a
beginner (often coming from LaTeX), that here and there, a \dontleavehmode
is needed. For beginner, this behaviour creates headaches!

Cheers, Peter

-- 
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/


___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: suggestions for MKIV

[Hans Hagen]

Peter Münster wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> 
>>> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
>>> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
>>> to change at least 2 things:
>>>
>>> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
>>> in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
>>> (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
>> no, no and no!
>>
>> \starttext
>> \placefigure{centered?}{\framed{vmode}}
>> \placefigure{centered?}{\dontleavehmode\framed{hmode}}
>> \stoptext
> 
> Hello Wolfgang,
> 
> I remember well your example. And again, it's more intuitive, if
> 
>                \placefigure{centered?}{test}
> and
>                \placefigure{centered?}{\framed{test}}
> and
>                \placefigure{centered?}{test \framed{test} test}
> 
> would behave the *same* way.
> 
> 
> There is no real problem for *me*, but it's very difficult to explain to a
> beginner (often coming from LaTeX), that here and there, a \dontleavehmode

\framed starts with a \bgroup which makes it possible to do

\setbox\vbox\framed

so we cannot change that without breaking things


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________