In-paragraph display

In-paragraph display

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Hello,

I'm going to bring the discussion back to a sore point that really
needs to be cleared.

When dealing with displayed material (equations, itemizations,
quotations etc) the following four cases are (or rather should be)
different:

==============================

Case 1:

some text before
\startdisplay
  displayed material
\stopdisplay
some text after

==============================

Case 2:

some text before

\startdisplay
  displayed material
\stopdisplay
some text after

==============================

Case 3:

some text before
\startdisplay
  displayed material
\stopdisplay

some text after

==============================

Case 4:

some text before

\startdisplay
  displayed material
\stopdisplay

some text after

==============================

The reason why they should be different is that

(1) in case 1 the display is part of the paragraph which includes
both the text before, the displayed material, and the text after

(2) in case 2 the display is part of a the paragraph which begins
with the displayed material and includes the text after, but not
the text before

(3) in case 3 the display is part of a the paragraph which begins
with the displayed material and includes the text before, but not
the text after

(4) in case 4 the display forms a paragraph on its own

Why is this important? Assume for example that the paragraphs are
set to have an indent (\setupindenting[medium], for example) and
that the indentnext option is set to true. In this case "some text
after" would only be indented in cases (3) and (4), but not in
cases (1) and (2), since in cases (3) and (4) it starts a new
paragraph while in cases (1) and (2) it is part of the previous
paragraph.

Is it just an impression of mine, or is it true that this is not
the case in ConTeXt? The behaviour in all three cases seems to be
the same ...

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re: In-paragraph display

[Hans Hagen]

At 10:06 AM 12/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm going to bring the discussion back to a sore point that really

hm, didn't know you were such a sore guy; don't get too depressed

what you want is kind of tricky in the sense that i hate macros that have 
to adapt themselves to such fuzzy situations (actuall yit's one of the 
reasons why so many tex docs (books, manuals, whatever) around have lousy 
vertical spacing; anyhow, because i can't stand you crying:

\def\displaybreak
   {\ifhmode
      \removeunwantedspaces
      \ifcase\raggedstatus\hfill\fi
      \strut\penalty-9999 % \break fails on case (3)
    \fi}

\def\startdisplay{\displaybreak\ignorespaces\startopelkaar}
\def\stopdisplay {\stopopelkaar\displaybreak\ignorespaces}

%\setupwhitespace[big] %%%%%% the tricky part

\setuplayout[topspace=1cm] \setuplayout[middle] \showstruts

\starttext

\startbuffer
(1) some text before
\startdisplay
   displayed material
\stopdisplay
some text after

(2) some text before

\startdisplay
   displayed material
\stopdisplay
some text after

(3) some text before
\startdisplay
   displayed material
\stopdisplay

some text after

(4) some text before

\startdisplay
   displayed material
\stopdisplay
some text after
\stopbuffer

\typebuffer \getbuffer \page

\startbuffer
(1) some text before
\startdisplay \blanko
   displayed material
\blanko\stopdisplay
some text after

(2) some text before

\startdisplay \blanko
   displayed material
\blanko\stopdisplay
some text after

(3) some text before
\startdisplay \blanko
   displayed material
\blanko\stopdisplay

some text after

(4) some text before

\startdisplay \blanko
   displayed material
\blanko \stopdisplay
some text after
\stopbuffer

\typebuffer \getbuffer \page

\stoptext

The best solution of course is to define the proper instances of 
enviroments (math already has 'm)

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[2]: In-paragraph display

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Monday, December 2, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> At 10:06 AM 12/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>Hello,
>>
>>I'm going to bring the discussion back to a sore point that really

HH> hm, didn't know you were such a sore guy; don't get too depressed

LOL. I'm not depressed :)

HH> what you want is kind of tricky in the sense that i hate macros that have 
HH> to adapt themselves to such fuzzy situations (actuall yit's one of the 
HH> reasons why so many tex docs (books, manuals, whatever) around have lousy 
HH> vertical spacing;

Uhm. I can't think of any example like that, really. The point is
that in ConTeXt as it is now a display (formula, itemization,
quotation, etc) is always forces a paragraph before and after,
which is not consistent with what the writer might want; think for
example of something like:

--------------
An introduction to the following:
* itemization
* one more item
and a conclusion, all in the same paragraph
--------------

versus

--------------
An introduction to the following:
* itemization
* one more item

Let's now talk about something else
--------------

HH>  anyhow, because i can't stand you crying:

> \def\displaybreak
>    {\ifhmode
>       \removeunwantedspaces
>       \ifcase\raggedstatus\hfill\fi
>       \strut\penalty-9999 % \break fails on case (3)
>     \fi}
> 
> \def\startdisplay{\displaybreak\ignorespaces\startopelkaar}
> \def\stopdisplay {\stopopelkaar\displaybreak\ignorespaces}

Doesn't work. Try setting \setupindenting[medium] in your example;
you'll notice that each line starts a new paragraph, and this is
not what is wanted.

(1) the display should end the previous paragraph if and only if
\start... is preceded by an empty line

(2) the material following the \stop... should start a new
paragraph if and only if there is an empty line between the \stop
and the material

HH> The best solution of course is to define the proper instances of 
HH> enviroments (math already has 'm)

All (displayed) blocks should have this feature. If you don't want
to break backwards compatibility, you could setup a couple of
options for \startstop pairs. As I proposed in another mail, it
should be tunable at a global level and on a per-\startstop level:
I propose a global switch like

\setupstartstops[break=always] % current ConTeXt behaviour
\setupstartstops[break=par]    % only start new paragraphs
                               % when there are empty lines

and local switches like:

\setupquotations[newpar=always] % current behaviour

where newpar can be always, (current behaviour, regardless of
global setting), default (follow general \startstop behaviour set
up by \setupstartstops) or par (start according to empty lines
regardless of global setting). Does it sound sensible?

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[2]: In-paragraph display

[Hans Hagen]

At 06:03 PM 12/2/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Uhm. I can't think of any example like that, really. The point is
>that in ConTeXt as it is now a display (formula, itemization,
>quotation, etc) is always forces a paragraph before and after,
>which is not consistent with what the writer might want; think for
>example of something like:

hm, but it's not the writer who's in charge here, but the designer; so, in 
terms of intentional coding, one should code in such a way that whatever 
strange thing happens along the road (accidental empty line or not) the 
output is consistent. So, an in-par something should be coded as such so 
that the environment can handle it, as good as possible.

>--------------
>An introduction to the following:
>* itemization
>* one more item
>and a conclusion, all in the same paragraph

there are options for that -)

>Doesn't work. Try setting \setupindenting[medium] in your example;
>you'll notice that each line starts a new paragraph, and this is
>not what is wanted.

ah, so we should look ahead, doable but never 100% robust; with regards to 
looking back, definitely less robust

>(1) the display should end the previous paragraph if and only if
>\start... is preceded by an empty line
>
>(2) the material following the \stop... should start a new
>paragraph if and only if there is an empty line between the \stop
>and the material

or a

text\par text, or

text\whow[expanding into \par]text

>HH> The best solution of course is to define the proper instances of
>HH> enviroments (math already has 'm)
>
>All (displayed) blocks should have this feature. If you don't want
>to break backwards compatibility, you could setup a couple of

you can bet on that

>options for \startstop pairs. As I proposed in another mail, it
>should be tunable at a global level and on a per-\startstop level:

such a feature should be tested for *each* environment with all kind of 
combinations, since spacing can really become nasty

>I propose a global switch like
>
>\setupstartstops[break=always] % current ConTeXt behaviour
>\setupstartstops[break=par]    % only start new paragraphs
>                                % when there are empty lines

hm, not sure it it hooks/should hook into start/stop

>and local switches like:
>
>\setupquotations[newpar=always] % current behaviour
>
>where newpar can be always, (current behaviour, regardless of
>global setting), default (follow general \startstop behaviour set
>up by \setupstartstops) or par (start according to empty lines
>regardless of global setting). Does it sound sensible?

depends, this is not something that will be there in-a-minute, and i 
definitely don't want to break compatibility for a convenience over coding 
feature -)

The first thing is a proper \start/stopdisplay pair, so let's start with 
that; one can then hook that into start/stop an dlater we can see if some 
kind of auto-display is possible [display=none|before|after|both] or so

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[3]: In-paragraph display

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Monday, December 2, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> At 06:03 PM 12/2/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>>Uhm. I can't think of any example like that, really. The point is
>>that in ConTeXt as it is now a display (formula, itemization,
>>quotation, etc) is always forces a paragraph before and after,
>>which is not consistent with what the writer might want; think for
>>example of something like:

HH> hm, but it's not the writer who's in charge here, but the designer; so, in 
HH> terms of intentional coding, one should code in such a way that whatever 
HH> strange thing happens along the road (accidental empty line or not) the 
HH> output is consistent. So, an in-par something should be coded as such so 
HH> that the environment can handle it, as good as possible.

This is where we differ. After all, the empty line is the
*standard* TeX (and ConTeXt) way to denote new paragraph. While
should it be different for displayed items? It's inconsistent.

>>--------------
>>An introduction to the following:
>>* itemization
>>* one more item
>>and a conclusion, all in the same paragraph

HH> there are options for that -)

But I have to specify it manually. If I later decide to rewrite
the stuff so that it's really in separate paragraphs I have to
change the displayed environment, while what should suffice is
letting ConTeXt understand that a new paragraph is started --the
*standard* way (empty line).

>>Doesn't work. Try setting \setupindenting[medium] in your example;
>>you'll notice that each line starts a new paragraph, and this is
>>not what is wanted.

HH> ah, so we should look ahead, doable but never 100% robust; with regards to 
HH> looking back, definitely less robust

I don't think there should be any need to look back or ahead. Just
don't force a new paragraph before and after each displayed item.
Let the user choose, the standard way(s).

>>I propose a global switch like
>>
>>\setupstartstops[break=always] % current ConTeXt behaviour
>>\setupstartstops[break=par]    % only start new paragraphs
>>                                % when there are empty lines

HH> hm, not sure it it hooks/should hook into start/stop

Where should it hook? All displayed items are start/stop pairs. If
you want to overrule this for a specific start/stop pair, you can
always to it with the local switch:

>>and local switches like:
>>
>>\setupquotations[newpar=always] % current behaviour
>>
>>where newpar can be always, (current behaviour, regardless of
>>global setting), default (follow general \startstop behaviour set
>>up by \setupstartstops) or par (start according to empty lines
>>regardless of global setting). Does it sound sensible?

HH> depends, this is not something that will be there in-a-minute, and i 
HH> definitely don't want to break compatibility for a convenience over coding 
HH> feature -)

HH> The first thing is a proper \start/stopdisplay pair, so let's start with 
HH> that; one can then hook that into start/stop an dlater we can see if some 
HH> kind of auto-display is possible [display=none|before|after|both] or so

"Display" is just a generic term I'm using for all the stuff which
is part of a paragraph but gets "highlited" by typesetting it in a
different format, sort of like a subparagraph. This category
includes itemizations (all itemgroups, actually), formulas (not
inline, of course), quotations, etc.

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re: Re[3]: In-paragraph display

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:

> HH> hm, but it's not the writer who's in charge here, but the 
> designer; so, in
> HH> terms of intentional coding, one should code in such a way that 
> whatever
> HH> strange thing happens along the road (accidental empty line or 
> not) the
> HH> output is consistent. So, an in-par something should be coded as 
> such so
> HH> that the environment can handle it, as good as possible.
>
> This is where we differ. After all, the empty line is the
> *standard* TeX (and ConTeXt) way to denote new paragraph. While
> should it be different for displayed items? It's inconsistent.

For what it's worth, I agree with Giuseppe here.   It's the same issue 
I had with block quotes: that even if there's no blank line, ConTeXt  
assumes new paragraph.

--
Dr. Bruce D'Arcus
Miami University
Geography Department
216 Shideler Hall
Oxford, OH 45056

Re[5]: In-paragraph display

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Tuesday, December 3, 2002 Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

>> This is where we differ. After all, the empty line is the
>> *standard* TeX (and ConTeXt) way to denote new paragraph. While
>> should it be different for displayed items? It's inconsistent.

BDA> For what it's worth, I agree with Giuseppe here.   It's the same issue 
BDA> I had with block quotes: that even if there's no blank line, ConTeXt  
BDA> assumes new paragraph.

The blockquote example is a very good example, IMO: an
"indipendent" (new paragraphed) block quote/quotation/whatever is
not "conceptually" different from a "displayed" (that doesn't
start a new paragraph) block quote/quotation/whatever. So there
should be no need to mark it up differently (as is required by the
ConTeXt assumption on paragrah breaking).

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[5]: In-paragraph display

[Hans Hagen]

At 10:25 AM 12/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Tuesday, December 3, 2002 Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>
> >> This is where we differ. After all, the empty line is the
> >> *standard* TeX (and ConTeXt) way to denote new paragraph. While
> >> should it be different for displayed items? It's inconsistent.
>
>BDA> For what it's worth, I agree with Giuseppe here.   It's the same issue
>BDA> I had with block quotes: that even if there's no blank line, ConTeXt
>BDA> assumes new paragraph.
>
>The blockquote example is a very good example, IMO: an
>"indipendent" (new paragraphed) block quote/quotation/whatever is
>not "conceptually" different from a "displayed" (that doesn't
>start a new paragraph) block quote/quotation/whatever. So there
>should be no need to mark it up differently (as is required by the
>ConTeXt assumption on paragrah breaking).

wait till you enter the area of typesetting a bit more complex docs (in 
terms of typo); then you really want to be able to make the difference; in 
that case, the way an author want it typeset is not the same as the 
designers view; it's not a far way from letting the author determine if 
something should be bold/slanted/whatever instead of coding in terms of 
emphasized/important/interesting, or, what we occasionally see, bolder and 
bigger subsubsection heads than sectionheads -)

now, say that there will be:

(1) quotation
(2) blockquotation

with

(1) forcing a new par
(2) behaving the way you want

and both can be set up as usual to act differently, that would solve the 
problem, wouldn't it, since you could either setup up quotation differently 
or use blockquotation. (i'm not going to change the quotation defaults, 
simply because it would break compatibility)

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[3]: In-paragraph display

[Hans Hagen]

At 01:37 AM 12/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>This is where we differ. After all, the empty line is the
>*standard* TeX (and ConTeXt) way to denote new paragraph. While
>should it be different for displayed items? It's inconsistent.

it's because in my limited perception display stuff is not part if the par -)

>But I have to specify it manually. If I later decide to rewrite
>the stuff so that it's really in separate paragraphs I have to
>change the displayed environment, while what should suffice is
>letting ConTeXt understand that a new paragraph is started --the
>*standard* way (empty line).

eh .. not sure if i understand this; some global switch would do most of 
the trick i assume

> >>Doesn't work. Try setting \setupindenting[medium] in your example;
> >>you'll notice that each line starts a new paragraph, and this is
> >>not what is wanted.
>
>HH> ah, so we should look ahead, doable but never 100% robust; with 
>regards to
>HH> looking back, definitely less robust
>
>I don't think there should be any need to look back or ahead. Just
>don't force a new paragraph before and after each displayed item.
>Let the user choose, the standard way(s).

well, since i want to be able to control consistency, i do need to look 
back; say that the design says: no empty lines (parskips) before something, 
then i need to configure that particular display instance to ignore the 
(possiibly already applied) parskip; keep in mind that it's not always the 
author who decides that somethign should start like a new paragraph; so, 
even if i provide you thsi display feature, i need it to be configurable in 
many ways for my own needs -)  would not hurt you anyway

> >>I propose a global switch like
> >>
> >>\setupstartstops[break=always] % current ConTeXt behaviour
> >>\setupstartstops[break=par]    % only start new paragraphs
> >>                                % when there are empty lines
>
>HH> hm, not sure it it hooks/should hook into start/stop
>
>Where should it hook? All displayed items are start/stop pairs. If
>you want to overrule this for a specific start/stop pair, you can
>always to it with the local switch:

i cannot simply before=\startdisplay things because it would break 
compatibility, so it would mean that each environment would get a 
display=... switch with some global default, in addition to start/stop

>is part of a paragraph but gets "highlited" by typesetting it in a
>different format, sort of like a subparagraph. This category
>includes itemizations (all itemgroups, actually), formulas (not
>inline, of course), quotations, etc.

hm, i like a more general view on 'display': anything that stands out in 
the text stream, being par or not, this is why it should be configurable 
(even tex is a bit fuzzy about it, since display math is used for both 
in-par or between par math)

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[6]: In-paragraph display

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Tuesday, December 3, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> now, say that there will be:

HH> (1) quotation
HH> (2) blockquotation

HH> with

HH> (1) forcing a new par
HH> (2) behaving the way you want

HH> and both can be set up as usual to act differently, that would solve the 
HH> problem, wouldn't it, since you could either setup up quotation differently 
HH> or use blockquotation. (i'm not going to change the quotation defaults, 
HH> simply because it would break compatibility)

That's fine for me. But wow would this differ from having the
possibility to set quotation (and other displayed environments) to
not force new paragraphs? After all, a blockquotation can easily
be tuned to force new paragraphs (just but before=\par and
after=\par), but the converse is not true.

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[6]: In-paragraph display

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:12 PM 12/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Tuesday, December 3, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>HH> now, say that there will be:
>
>HH> (1) quotation
>HH> (2) blockquotation
>
>HH> with
>
>HH> (1) forcing a new par
>HH> (2) behaving the way you want
>
>HH> and both can be set up as usual to act differently, that would solve the
>HH> problem, wouldn't it, since you could either setup up quotation 
>differently
>HH> or use blockquotation. (i'm not going to change the quotation defaults,
>HH> simply because it would break compatibility)
>
>That's fine for me. But wow would this differ from having the
>possibility to set quotation (and other displayed environments) to
>not force new paragraphs? After all, a blockquotation can easily
>be tuned to force new paragraphs (just but before=\par and
>after=\par), but the converse is not true.

well, if before=\blank, that will not change; actually, quotations are 
hooked into narrower, which start/ends new pars; a more generic switch can 
be built in, but takes time, so in due time you can have that switch (with 
of course the danger that nothing generates a par anymore, or worse, that 
anybody disagrees with any defaults), but not in a quick and dirty hack; i 
will first make a proper startdisplay/stopdisplay, and after that it may go 
in some env's

Hans

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re[7]: In-paragraph display

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Tuesday, December 3, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> well, if before=\blank, that will not change;
of course

HH> actually, quotations are hooked into narrower, which
HH> start/ends new pars;

Narrower, too, shouldn't start new pars IMO. It counts as
displayed material.

HH> a more generic switch can be built in, but takes time, so in
HH> due time you can have that switch (with of course the danger
HH> that nothing generates a par anymore, or worse, that anybody
HH> disagrees with any defaults), but not in a quick and dirty
HH> hack; i will first make a proper startdisplay/stopdisplay, and
HH> after that it may go in some env's

That's more than fine for me! :)

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re[4]: In-paragraph display

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Tuesday, December 3, 2002 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> At 01:37 AM 12/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>>This is where we differ. After all, the empty line is the
>>*standard* TeX (and ConTeXt) way to denote new paragraph. While
>>should it be different for displayed items? It's inconsistent.

HH> it's because in my limited perception display stuff is not part if the par -)

Even assuming the displayed part might not be "part" of the par,
the following text would (or rather could) still be part of the
same par as the previous text. But then again, displayed material
*is* part of the par --it's a displayed part of it, something put
in evidence, but still part of it.

[You could convince yourself by thinking for example of displayed
math $$...$$ in (plain) TeX: it is considered part of the
paragraph (and "forced" to three lines, IIRC)]

>>But I have to specify it manually. If I later decide to rewrite
>>the stuff so that it's really in separate paragraphs I have to
>>change the displayed environment, while what should suffice is
>>letting ConTeXt understand that a new paragraph is started --the
>>*standard* way (empty line).

HH> eh .. not sure if i understand this; some global switch would do most of 
HH> the trick i assume

Nope. As an example, assume the displayed material in question is
a quotation: changing a global switch will make all/none of the
quotations be "distinct paragraph". This is not good, because
wether or not the quotation is a part of the paragraph or not
depends from the quotation and its context, so the user should be
able to decide when new pars are started and when not, for each
single quotation. And since the standard way to get new pars in
TeX is by putting empty lines, why should it be different for
displayed material?

>>I don't think there should be any need to look back or ahead. Just
>>don't force a new paragraph before and after each displayed item.
>>Let the user choose, the standard way(s).

HH> well, since i want to be able to control consistency, i do need to look 
HH> back; say that the design says: no empty lines (parskips) before something, 
HH> then i need to configure that particular display instance to ignore the 
HH> (possiibly already applied) parskip; keep in mind that it's not always the 
HH> author who decides that somethign should start like a new paragraph;

I'm not sure I understand this.

>>HH> hm, not sure it it hooks/should hook into start/stop
>>
>>Where should it hook? All displayed items are start/stop pairs. If
>>you want to overrule this for a specific start/stop pair, you can
>>always to it with the local switch:

HH> i cannot simply before=\startdisplay things because it would break 
HH> compatibility, so it would mean that each environment would get a 
HH> display=... switch with some global default, in addition to start/stop

Oh, that's fine for me.

>>is part of a paragraph but gets "highlited" by typesetting it in a
>>different format, sort of like a subparagraph. This category
>>includes itemizations (all itemgroups, actually), formulas (not
>>inline, of course), quotations, etc.

HH> hm, i like a more general view on 'display': anything that stands out in 
HH> the text stream, being par or not, this is why it should be configurable 
HH> (even tex is a bit fuzzy about it, since display math is used for both 
HH> in-par or between par math)

That's precisely my point. Contrary to TeX, ConTeXt always forces
new paragraphs for displayed material: each displayed material is
always considered a distinct paragraph, and thus always terminates
the previous paragraph and begins a new one after its end.

Of course "between par" displays (i.e. displays surrounded by
empty lines) should be distinct pars, but this should not be
enforced on all displays (as it it by ConTeXt, currently).

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re: Re[3]: In-paragraph display

[Simon Pepping]

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 08:18:06PM -0500, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> 
> On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 07:37 PM, Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:
> 
> For what it's worth, I agree with Giuseppe here.   It's the same issue 
> I had with block quotes: that even if there's no blank line, ConTeXt  
> assumes new paragraph.

I agree with Giuseppe and Bruce as well.

A paragraph with a displayed item in the middle, looks different to
the typesetter than to the reader: For the typesetter it consists of
three "display areas". For the reader it consists of a single
paragraph with a part standing out by its layout. The author registers
his intention to consider this as a single paragraph by not issuing
\par commands, not explicitly and no blank lines around the displayed
item.

AFAIK, in HTML such a paragraph is forbidden; a "block item" cannot
contain other "block items".

In LaTeX this situation is handled by the everypar mechanism. The end
of the display environment inserts into everypar a "once only"
noindent command. If the author issues a \par command after the
displayed item, explicitly or by a blank line, the noindent is
consumed by this empty paragraph. The following text will see the
normal everypar, with a normal parindent. It is a fragile mechanism,
and for a class author it is always a problem to get this right. (It
also bluntly resets everypar, thus disabling any other usage of it.) I
am not sure how a \par command before the displayed item is treated.

In context \setupdescriptions has a 'indentnext=no' option. In
DocbookInContext I have tried to use it, in variablelist and
glosslist. I did not see a result.

Regards, Simon

-- 
Simon Pepping
email: spepping@scaprea.hobby.nl