* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 12:21 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Florian Wobbe
@ 2011-03-12 13:05 ` Marco
2011-03-12 14:08 ` Mojca Miklavec
2011-03-12 16:20 ` Procházka Lukáš
` (5 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Marco @ 2011-03-12 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On 2011-03-12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de> wrote:
> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
Because the old manuals only mention mkii and many things have changed in mkiv
and don't work in mkii. It is not easy for beginners to choose between mkii
and mkiv. And many are not aware of the two different (and incompatible)
versions and mix them up.
> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
First:
Users like to install software using the package management system. Installing
software manually is considered evil. For software that is updated frequently
usually ppa links are provided for the repository.
Second:
You mentioned it already. Users tend to install »maximals«, not minimals, they
don't like rectricted versions if you can get the whole. ;)
> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
Make it clear that the minimals are the standard way of using ConTeXt, not
TeXlive when they want an up-to-date ConTeXt distribution.
A clear advise for mkiv and contra mkii. mkiv is the way to go in the future.
> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
> search engine requests?
I don't see a problem there (but still, maybe other people have). Searching
the mailing list, the garden or google for context + pragma usually points to
the right direction.
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
Provide examples using the described features, so they have a point to start
from. This is solved in a good way in the pdf documents, not really on the
wiki.
> I understand the problem.
>
> Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should be
> renamed to "installing/using context".
ACK
> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I
> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
> first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of
> the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
> distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
> minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would
> suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.
Very true. But it's an established name, I don't believe that it's likely to
be changed.
Marco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 13:05 ` Marco
@ 2011-03-12 14:08 ` Mojca Miklavec
0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Mojca Miklavec @ 2011-03-12 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Marco
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 14:05, Marco wrote:
> On 2011-03-12 Florian Wobbe wrote:
>
>> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I
>> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
>> first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of
>> the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
>> distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
>> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
>> minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would
>> suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.
Interesting point :)
> Very true. But it's an established name, I don't believe that it's likely to
> be changed.
Well, I have been warned several times that we should change the name.
I'm procrastinating for over a year already to finish and release a
new version (that will be even more minimal, but with more optional
fonts etc.) on the new server. It would be an option to rename it to
"The ConTeXt Distribution", but the pet name "minimals" will probably
stay :)
Mojca
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 12:21 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Florian Wobbe
2011-03-12 13:05 ` Marco
@ 2011-03-12 16:20 ` Procházka Lukáš
2011-03-12 20:02 ` Jaroslav Hajtmar
2011-03-12 20:08 ` C.
` (4 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Procházka Lukáš @ 2011-03-12 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hello,
my personal opinion(s) (some of them very similar to Marco's ones):
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
(Cannot say; I started with MkIV so for me ConTeXt = MkIV.)
> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
The word "minimals" is a bit confusing. It implies that there must be also Ctx "standard" or Ctx "maximal".
Better to be just "ConTeXt"; and if one finds something missing (e.g. fonts? modules?), he may be directed towards some "extras".
> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for search engine requests?
The problem is too-many-incomplete (or obsolete) information sources. Wiki contains many stubs; there are options for commands which are not explained at all, even not mentioned or demonstrated by an example.
Similar for contextref.pdf - there are many "todo areas", but be it. But also many command options are not explained at all.
From the user's point, when one has a problem, this means 1) search the wiki (he may remember that lately he didn't find an answer, but he should try again, what about if the topic/stub was added/completed?), 2) search the manual (personally, my most favourite source) and 3) to post a question to the mailing list (fortunately, people here do answer swiftly and even very "basic" questions are answered patiently).
In my opinion, one information source would be good, a Ctx reference. It might be divided to several parts (e.g. Fonts, Tables, Document Structure Elements, Layers and Overlays, Colouring ConTeXt, ConTeXt and XML...).
It should be decided whether the primary source is to be the wiki or the Ctx manual (.pdf).
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup (module?) which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to that been generated by LaTeX.
Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's signature is also unmatchable).
If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating from LaTeX), you probably won't be satisfied with the default look (letters too big, heads not bold, spacing before/after heads too different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document looks very "symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons).
The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you must search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the result which would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.
----
Treat all above as a personal point of view.
I appreciate all work around Ctx and documenting it; and as an active programmer (including writing a user reference) I can imagine effort which must be make to improve a program, to test it and to keep the documentation up-to-date, including adding description of new features (and samples for them) and removing the deprecated ones.
Best regards,
Lukas
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 16:20 ` Procházka Lukáš
@ 2011-03-12 20:02 ` Jaroslav Hajtmar
0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Jaroslav Hajtmar @ 2011-03-12 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Hello ConTeXist.
I installed ConTeXt minimals until pretty late. Before, I used the
context in the TeXLive. For a long time I really thought that Minimals
are "incomplete" versions of minimal and that there was something more.
I was very pleasantly surprised at how easily Minimals installed and is
very good, it is easy to automatically update the version. MkII I
completely stopped using to create new documents using the MkII and
translate only the old stuff.
I know from experience that newcomers and MkII MKIV confusing and I have
sometimes a problem with incompatibility, because I have long used the MkII.
Personally I would advocate a clear separation of the MkII and MKIV in
the garden and change "minimals" name to the name that is so misleading
- eg directly MarkTeX :-).
Greetings Jaroslav
Dne 12.3.2011 17:20, Procházka Lukáš napsal(a):
> Hello,
>
> my personal opinion(s) (some of them very similar to Marco's ones):
>
>> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
>
> (Cannot say; I started with MkIV so for me ConTeXt = MkIV.)
>
>> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
>
> The word "minimals" is a bit confusing. It implies that there must be
> also Ctx "standard" or Ctx "maximal".
>
> Better to be just "ConTeXt"; and if one finds something missing (e.g.
> fonts? modules?), he may be directed towards some "extras".
>
>> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
>> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden
>> for search engine requests?
>
> The problem is too-many-incomplete (or obsolete) information sources.
> Wiki contains many stubs; there are options for commands which are not
> explained at all, even not mentioned or demonstrated by an example.
>
> Similar for contextref.pdf - there are many "todo areas", but be it.
> But also many command options are not explained at all.
>
> From the user's point, when one has a problem, this means 1) search
> the wiki (he may remember that lately he didn't find an answer, but he
> should try again, what about if the topic/stub was added/completed?),
> 2) search the manual (personally, my most favourite source) and 3) to
> post a question to the mailing list (fortunately, people here do
> answer swiftly and even very "basic" questions are answered patiently).
>
> In my opinion, one information source would be good, a Ctx reference.
> It might be divided to several parts (e.g. Fonts, Tables, Document
> Structure Elements, Layers and Overlays, Colouring ConTeXt, ConTeXt
> and XML...).
>
> It should be decided whether the primary source is to be the wiki or
> the Ctx manual (.pdf).
>
>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
> For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup
> (module?) which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to
> that been generated by LaTeX.
>
> Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you
> recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's
> signature is also unmatchable).
>
> If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating
> from LaTeX), you probably won't be satisfied with the default look
> (letters too big, heads not bold, spacing before/after heads too
> different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document looks very
> "symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx
> defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons).
>
> The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be
> systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you
> must search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the
> result which would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.
>
> ----
>
> Treat all above as a personal point of view.
>
> I appreciate all work around Ctx and documenting it; and as an active
> programmer (including writing a user reference) I can imagine effort
> which must be make to improve a program, to test it and to keep the
> documentation up-to-date, including adding description of new features
> (and samples for them) and removing the deprecated ones.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lukas
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
> to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 12:21 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Florian Wobbe
2011-03-12 13:05 ` Marco
2011-03-12 16:20 ` Procházka Lukáš
@ 2011-03-12 20:08 ` C.
2011-03-12 23:04 ` Pontus Lurcock
2011-03-13 7:01 ` Vnpenguin
2011-03-13 4:48 ` mathew
` (3 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: C. @ 2011-03-12 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'mailing list for ConTeXt users'
Hello,
I recently started using context. I migrated from latex to xelatex to
context. Mainly because of the better font support. I now value context also
for its superior abilities. I feel that I can do more stuff without the use
of \usepackage for this, \usepackage for that. When I read the
documentation, I get the feeling that a lot of thoughts went into the
options that are presented but it's still easy to customize (if you know how
to do it :D)
Here is my input to your questions.
1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
The difference is not well explained. Also, mkii (which I don't use) sounds
like "the old version". When I first read about context, it was like "well,
we have this and that (mkii and mkiv)" but it should say "we have mkii,
[insert here: what can it do, for what users is it recommended, pros/cons]
and mkiv [insert info]. If you are not sure what to use, then you should use
mkiv, because that is the future." Or something like that.
2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
is.
3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
I for one would welcome to see more guides like the "titles" guide. Nicely
commented and explained code, result as picture. For better structure it
would be an option to use code blocks that can be hidden, with a small [+]
in front that you can click to see the code.
4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
search engine requests?
I read the manual section, if that does not answer it, I google "<what I
want> context". Most of the time that takes me to the mail archive.
5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
I don't know.
Maybe that helps.
Christian
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Florian Wobbe [mailto:Florian.Wobbe@awi.de]
> Gesendet: Samstag, 12. März 2011 13:21
> An: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
>
> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
> search engine requests?
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
> Especially answers from new users to the first three points would be
helpful
> to answer the fifth point I guess.
>
> >> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii
related
> information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to make it
> easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections,
> independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline?
> > Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be able to make
> everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a new user on the list who asks
> about "installing mkiv" and doesn't realize that it is not really
something
> which you have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those users
> because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly identical, so that
would
> be an arguments against a too stric separation.
>
> I understand the problem.
>
> Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should
be
> renamed to "installing/using context".
>
> Maybe it would help to include a little box "important things to know" on
the
> installation page and explain shortly that for historical reasons mkii and
mkiv
> are distributed together and that the former is regarded deprecated.
Maybe
> link to a new page: Differences between miiv/mkii and how both are invoked
> (context vs. texexec).
>
> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals.
I
> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
first
> place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of the
extra
> effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
distribution"
> that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
minimals
> is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would suggest
> leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.
>
> > But of course you're also right that it's frustrating for users if they
can't find
> relevant information for the areas where the two differ. As long as mkiv
> hasn't settled, this is not easy...
>
> In deed. I guess this has most relevance for people new to context,
> especially those who know latex already and are used to find help easily.
>
> >> We should add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki
(Bibliography
> MKIV page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv).
> >
> > You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on bibliographies
right
> now (he promised to finish something which I need for a project in March,
so
> that leaves him another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a bit.
>
> OK, fine. I'm curious what new feature this will bring to us!
>
> > criterium=cite should work as well, but doesn't right now.
> >
> >> In the beginning it was not clear to me, that
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the MKII
> implementation of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest to rename Bibliography
> to Bibliography_mkii and create an alias Bibliography that redirects to
> Bibliography_mkiv instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and
> Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that the page is related
to
> mkii/mkiv only and link to the other page. Do you think this is
reasonable?
> >
> > I had begun rewriting the page. There is now
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliographies which links to the other
pages,
> and which is linked to on the front page. But another context-related
project
> kept me away from this and I never finished this, so fell free to shuffle
and
> rewrite things!
>
> I see. I was not aware of this page. I usually find information on the
wiki by
> searching for: "site:wiki.contextgarden.net placepublications". So if
there are
> actually disambiguation pages for mkiv/mkii it makes sense to include
> mkiv/mkii on both pages (not just one).
>
> >> I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle files and add
space
> for sharing reference styles of different journals. What do you think?
> >
> > Again, that's a very good idea, but we should maybe wait just a bit till
the
> dust settles a bit.
>
> All right.
>
> Best,
> Florian
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 20:08 ` C.
@ 2011-03-12 23:04 ` Pontus Lurcock
2011-03-14 7:46 ` Taco Hoekwater
2011-03-13 7:01 ` Vnpenguin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Pontus Lurcock @ 2011-03-12 23:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On Sat 12 Mar 2011, C. wrote:
> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
> is.
I think "Context Standalone" would be a good name: as I understand it,
"minimals" refers to the fact that it doesn't include other TeX
formats and associated baggage; "standalone" conveys the same idea
with less ambiguity, and hints at the fact that it won't interfere
with your system's package manager.
> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> I for one would welcome to see more guides like the "titles" guide.
Agreed. I've been learning Python matplotlib at the same time as
ConTeXt, and find that the quickest way is to pick an example plot
from the (extensive) gallery that looks similar to what I want, then
progressively modify the source code into what I need. A similar
collection of common use-cases for ConTeXt would be great for
beginners, I think.
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
> I don't know.
Someone above suggested packaging layouts to approximate the standard
LaTeX look, and I too think that this would help. Not that I find the
standard LaTeX look very pretty, but familiarity is a powerful
force...
Pont
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 23:04 ` Pontus Lurcock
@ 2011-03-14 7:46 ` Taco Hoekwater
2011-03-14 20:26 ` Mojca Miklavec
0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2011-03-14 7:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi,
On 03/13/2011 12:04 AM, Pontus Lurcock wrote:
> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, C. wrote:
>
>> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
>> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
>> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
>> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
>> is.
>
> I think "Context Standalone" would be a good name: as I understand it,
> "minimals" refers to the fact that it doesn't include other TeX
> formats and associated baggage; "standalone" conveys the same idea
> with less ambiguity, and hints at the fact that it won't interfere
> with your system's package manager.
I agree, that sounds like a good name. Mojca, this does not need
much more initial work than fixing the wiki pages, right?
Best wishes,
Taco
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-14 7:46 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2011-03-14 20:26 ` Mojca Miklavec
2011-03-14 21:15 ` mathew
0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Mojca Miklavec @ 2011-03-14 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Taco Hoekwater
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 08:46, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Mojca, this does not need
> much more initial work than fixing the wiki pages, right?
Except that wiki pages are in a really horrible shape when it comes to
Installation pages.
I bet that 90% of pages are outdated with wrong information about how
to break TeX Live 2009 with the latest ConTeXt MKIV version, how to
break MikTeX 2.7 by creating a couple of .bat files to run the latest
ConTeXt, how to install on SuSE from 2007, etc.
I'm just not sure what and where to start fixing anything unless I
create a full list of outdated pages, create a full backup, delete
everything and write everything from scratch.
If anyone has the slightest idea where to start, please do it.
Mojca
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 20:08 ` C.
2011-03-12 23:04 ` Pontus Lurcock
@ 2011-03-13 7:01 ` Vnpenguin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Vnpenguin @ 2011-03-13 7:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 21:08, C. <metan0r@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I recently started using context. I migrated from latex to xelatex to
> context. Mainly because of the better font support. I now value context also
> for its superior abilities. I feel that I can do more stuff without the use
> of \usepackage for this, \usepackage for that. When I read the
> documentation, I get the feeling that a lot of thoughts went into the
> options that are presented but it's still easy to customize (if you know how
> to do it :D)
> Here is my input to your questions.
>
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
> The difference is not well explained. Also, mkii (which I don't use) sounds
> like "the old version". When I first read about context, it was like "well,
> we have this and that (mkii and mkiv)" but it should say "we have mkii,
> [insert here: what can it do, for what users is it recommended, pros/cons]
> and mkiv [insert info]. If you are not sure what to use, then you should use
> mkiv, because that is the future." Or something like that.
For me I don't care mkii. I use only mkiv. It's better to separate
completely mkii from mkiv distribution. Yes, I see, in this case there
is some work more for ConTeXt team.
> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
> is.
Yes, agreed !
mkii should be named "ConTeXt Legacy" ?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 12:21 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Florian Wobbe
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2011-03-12 20:08 ` C.
@ 2011-03-13 4:48 ` mathew
2011-03-13 5:03 ` Pontus Lurcock
2011-03-14 13:04 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Carlos Breton Besnier
` (2 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: mathew @ 2011-03-13 4:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 06:21, Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de> wrote:
> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the
>minimals. I now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the
>minimals in the first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one
>it was because of the extra effort.
My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals in
your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as pdfcrop.
I ended up writing my own pdfcrop because I couldn't work out how to
get the one from my distribution working at the same time as the
ConTeXt minimals.
I'd have gone back to my distro's copy of ConTeXt, if it wasn't for
the fact that it dates back to 2009 and I'd already hit a bug in it
that's fixed in the minimals.
mathew
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~meta/>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-13 4:48 ` mathew
@ 2011-03-13 5:03 ` Pontus Lurcock
2011-03-13 6:25 ` luigi scarso
2011-03-13 21:35 ` Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?) Henning Hraban Ramm
0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Pontus Lurcock @ 2011-03-13 5:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
> pdfcrop.
I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
Pont
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-13 5:03 ` Pontus Lurcock
@ 2011-03-13 6:25 ` luigi scarso
2011-03-13 7:42 ` Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?) Alan BRASLAU
2011-03-13 21:35 ` Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?) Henning Hraban Ramm
1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2011-03-13 6:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock <pont@talvi.net> wrote:
> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
>
>> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
>> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
>> pdfcrop.
>
> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than windows).
--
luigi
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?)
2011-03-13 6:25 ` luigi scarso
@ 2011-03-13 7:42 ` Alan BRASLAU
2011-03-13 7:56 ` Minimals Taco Hoekwater
0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2011-03-13 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On Sunday 13 March 2011 07:25:03 luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock <pont@talvi.net> wrote:
> > On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
> >> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
> >> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
> >> pdfcrop.
> >
> > I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
> > or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
> > and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
> > doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
> > the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
>
> this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than
> windows).
Except if one works principly with ConTeXt, in which case it is much
nicer to have /path/to/minimials by default in PATH.
I do the opposite: if ever I need to use latex (lualatex!),
this works just fine, except for a few programs such as bibtex
for which I just define special aliases:
tbibtex -> /usr/local/texlive/2010/bin/x86_64-linux/bibtex
etc.
I guess that `luatex' is a problem.
Maybe the minimals could evolve slightly so that there be *no*
name conflicts with texlive except for ConTeXt itself, of course?
(It appears that pdfcrop gets broken through a confusion over luatex,
perhaps other texlive programs as well.)
Alan
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Minimals
2011-03-13 7:42 ` Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?) Alan BRASLAU
@ 2011-03-13 7:56 ` Taco Hoekwater
2011-03-13 8:22 ` Minimals luigi scarso
0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2011-03-13 7:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 03/13/2011 08:42 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2011 07:25:03 luigi scarso wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock<pont@talvi.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
>>>> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
>>>> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
>>>> pdfcrop.
>>>
>>> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
>>> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
>>> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
>>> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
>>> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
>>
>> this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than
>> windows).
>
> Except if one works principly with ConTeXt, in which case it is much
> nicer to have /path/to/minimials by default in PATH.
>
> I do the opposite: if ever I need to use latex (lualatex!),
If I need lualatex, I just push the TeXLive bin directory to the front
of my path. (exact opposite of Pontus' approach).
Best wishes,
Taco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Minimals
2011-03-13 7:56 ` Minimals Taco Hoekwater
@ 2011-03-13 8:22 ` luigi scarso
0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2011-03-13 8:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> On 03/13/2011 08:42 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday 13 March 2011 07:25:03 luigi scarso wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock<pont@talvi.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
>>>>> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
>>>>> pdfcrop.
>>>>
>>>> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
>>>> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
>>>> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
>>>> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
>>>> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
>>>
>>> this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than
>>> windows).
>>
>> Except if one works principly with ConTeXt, in which case it is much
>> nicer to have /path/to/minimials by default in PATH.
>>
>> I do the opposite: if ever I need to use latex (lualatex!),
>
> If I need lualatex, I just push the TeXLive bin directory to the front
> of my path. (exact opposite of Pontus' approach).
ah ok, now I see.
My PATH env var. has not a TeXLive or minimals path by default.
Every time I need a TeXLive or minimals, I open a shell and setup the its path
and I never mix the paths --- just open another shell in another
working spaces (In linux I use 16 working spaces)
or another tab in gnome-terminal.
In this way I can work with different TeXLive and different minimals
For example I have under /opt/luatex/texlive
2008
2008-texmf-local
2009
2009-texmf-local
2010
2010-texmf-local
and ~10 different minimals under opt/luatex
Of course this can be a problem with editors that expect just one
path, but I use emacs, so...
--
luigi
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?)
2011-03-13 5:03 ` Pontus Lurcock
2011-03-13 6:25 ` luigi scarso
@ 2011-03-13 21:35 ` Henning Hraban Ramm
2011-03-14 7:40 ` Mojca Miklavec
1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2011-03-13 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 2011-03-13 um 06:03 schrieb Pontus Lurcock:
> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
I do the same on OSX (even if simply because setuptex is too slow for
every new Terminal window, where I don’t need it) but set
alias setuptex='. /path/to/tex/setuptex /path/to/tex'
in my .bashrc (or .profile, that is).
Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 12:21 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Florian Wobbe
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2011-03-13 4:48 ` mathew
@ 2011-03-14 13:04 ` Carlos Breton Besnier
2011-03-14 15:16 ` Carlos Breton Besnier
2011-03-14 15:17 ` Carlos Breton
6 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Carlos Breton Besnier @ 2011-03-14 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
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2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>
> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I write law books.
Latex installation and update is very simple for beginners. On Windows with
MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first document. Not so with
ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's cause of frustration and
after several attempts they give up. Then they return to LaTeX (like me
too).
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 12:21 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Florian Wobbe
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2011-03-14 13:04 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Carlos Breton Besnier
@ 2011-03-14 15:16 ` Carlos Breton Besnier
2011-03-16 12:37 ` Vedran Miletić
2011-03-14 15:17 ` Carlos Breton
6 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Carlos Breton Besnier @ 2011-03-14 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 644 bytes --]
2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>
> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
return to LaTeX (like me too).
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-14 15:16 ` Carlos Breton Besnier
@ 2011-03-16 12:37 ` Vedran Miletić
2011-04-26 10:27 ` Ian Lawrence
0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread
From: Vedran Miletić @ 2011-03-16 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Carlos Breton Besnier
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2011/3/14 Carlos Breton Besnier <breton.carlos@gmail.com>
>
>
> 2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>
>
>> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>>
>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>>
>>
> I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
> for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
> I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
> beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
> document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
> cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
> return to LaTeX (like me too).
>
Well, with TeX Live 2010 it's very simple to use MkII with both pdfTeX and
XeTeX. Hopefully, some future version of TeX Live (2011?) will offer the
same for MkIV. Script is already there, it's just not integrated with
TeXworks in TeX Live yet.
Regards,
Vedran Miletić
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-16 12:37 ` Vedran Miletić
@ 2011-04-26 10:27 ` Ian Lawrence
0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Ian Lawrence @ 2011-04-26 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Well, I am a beginner. I have just lost 2 hours trying to do something
which ought to be simple. Perhaps now I have spent 10's of hours
working at my understanding, yet still I have to look up the simplest
essentials, often. And I think knowing what kind of things it is, and
where one might look are necessary lubricants for this process.
I think you probably cannot have too many (documented) examples.
Things which are very obvious to some , are not so obvious to others.
And if too much has to be done by trial and error then everything is
very slow... Very very slow.
For me, there is too much that is cryptic in the Wiki. Often I read
the entry and am no wiser. Each word is well formed, but there is no
mental model emerging. Maybe a wiki is good place for archiving,
curating and exchanging tips, but just not so good for learning from
scratch.
The 'Starting with Context' pdf I find very good, but for later work
all kinds of things are 'bad style', 'deprecated' etc. So maybe a way
in to thinking about what to do is to consider how the newer user
might get a handle on what Context is really for, and why one might
prefer it to manually typesetting documents...
Kind regards
Ian
2011/3/16 Vedran Miletić <rivanvx@gmail.com>:
> 2011/3/14 Carlos Breton Besnier <breton.carlos@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> 2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>
>>>
>>> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>>>
>>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>>>
>>
>> I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
>> for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
>> I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
>> beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
>> document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
>> cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
>> return to LaTeX (like me too).
>
> Well, with TeX Live 2010 it's very simple to use MkII with both pdfTeX and
> XeTeX. Hopefully, some future version of TeX Live (2011?) will offer the
> same for MkIV. Script is already there, it's just not integrated with
> TeXworks in TeX Live yet.
>
> Regards,
>
> Vedran Miletić
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
2011-03-12 12:21 ` Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Florian Wobbe
` (5 preceding siblings ...)
2011-03-14 15:16 ` Carlos Breton Besnier
@ 2011-03-14 15:17 ` Carlos Breton
6 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread
From: Carlos Breton @ 2011-03-14 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 647 bytes --]
2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>
> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
>
I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
return to LaTeX (like me too).
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 941 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
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wiki : http://contextgarden.net
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