Senteces

Senteces

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Hello, I just discovered a need for a particular treatment of sentences
(speechs?) in some typographic styles.

Precisely, in Italy, when a spoken sentence is longer that a paragraph, you
usually put a guillemot at the beginning of every paragraph included in the
sentence, and put a closing guillemot only at the end of the final
paragraph. Moreover, you use guillemots at the beginning of intermediate
paragraphs even when (alongside the american typography) you use --- to
begin speechs.

In some way, this behaviour can be compared to the french behaviour
(presented in the Omega documentation) regarding the repetition of
guillemots down the left side of the paragraph. In Italy it's easier, since
it can be accomodated with an \everypar. Is it already implemented (in some
hidden way), or do I have to redefine something to achieve this behaviour?

Giuseppe Bilotta

Re: Senteces

[Hans Hagen]

At 02:14 PM 10/10/00 +0200, Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:
>Hello, I just discovered a need for a particular treatment of sentences
>(speechs?) in some typographic styles.
>
>Precisely, in Italy, when a spoken sentence is longer that a paragraph, you
>usually put a guillemot at the beginning of every paragraph included in the
>sentence, and put a closing guillemot only at the end of the final
>paragraph. Moreover, you use guillemots at the beginning of intermediate
>paragraphs even when (alongside the american typography) you use --- to
>begin speechs.

\starttext 

\unprotect

\definesymbol
  [beginquotation] 
  [\getvalue{\??la\currentlanguage\c!leftquotation}]

\definesymbol
  [endquotation] 
  [\getvalue{\??la\currentlanguage\c!rightquotation}]

\protect 

\definestartstop
  [Iquotation]
  [before=\startquotation\EveryPar{\symbol[beginquotation]},
   after=\stopquotation]

\input tufte 

\startIquotation
\input knuth 
\stopIquotation

\input tufte 

\stoptext

It can be an option to the normal quotation mechanism. Do other languages
have special requirements? I'm thinking of typo-lgcode classes, which I
need for Chinese [under construction] and Farsi [being worked on esp for
omega] anyway, 

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Senteces

[Hans Hagen]

At 07:04 PM 10/14/00 +0200, Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:

>Actually,  I was thinking of it with a use like:
>
>\starttext
>
>|<| Hello |>| he said |<| This is a test. It has some sentences, like
>in a speech.
>
>We have a new paragraph, and so on. For a quick hack:
>
>\input knuth
>
>And the we end here |>|
>
>\stoptext
>
>Every new paragraph in the speech should have the equivalent of a |<| at the
>beginning, but not at the end. An automatic way to do it (rather than using
>a
>\startIspeech ... \stopIspeech) would be greatly appreciated.

This is a test: 

\global\let\repeatleftsentence\empty \appendtoks \repeatleftsentence \to
\everypar

\setuplanguage
  [it]
  [ leftsentence=\leftguillemot \global\let\repeatleftsentence\leftguillemot,
   rightsentence=\rightguillemot\global\let\repeatleftsentence\empty]

\mainlanguage[it] test |<|test test test \par test test \par test test|>| test

\stoptext

But, this is the ugly way. We probably need a proper switch. Also, this
everypar trick is not really meant for the user level since it may break
other code. 

What do others think of this feature? 

>>
>> It can be an option to the normal quotation mechanism. Do other languages
>> have special requirements? I'm thinking of typo-lgcode classes,
>
>uh? what's that?

typo-chi.tex 
typo-it.tex 

and alike, not there yet, but needed for chinese, which has a lot of
interesting things different from western languages.  

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Senteces

[Ed L Cashin]

Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes:

> What do others think of this feature? 

I don't understand the issue.  If it's just, "quote properly," then
why wouldn't the author just put in any necessary quotes in the
source, as one would do in English?

    \starttext
    Bert said the following:

    ``I am an ant.

    ``I am an ant from Jupiter, and I have come here.

    ``I have come here, and that is that.''
    \stoptext

using whatever quotation marks are appropriate to the language ... or
is it a language-support issue that I don't understand?

-- 
--Ed Cashin                     PGP public key:
  ecashin@coe.uga.edu           http://www.coe.uga.edu/~ecashin/pgp/

Re: Senteces

[Hans Hagen]

At 10:14 PM 10/15/00 -0400, Ed L Cashin wrote:
>Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> writes:
>
>> What do others think of this feature? 
>
>I don't understand the issue.  If it's just, "quote properly," then
>why wouldn't the author just put in any necessary quotes in the
>source, as one would do in English?
>
>    \starttext
>    Bert said the following:
>    
>    ``I am an ant.
>    
>    ``I am an ant from Jupiter, and I have come here.
>    
>    ``I have come here, and that is that.''
>    \stoptext
>
>using whatever quotation marks are appropriate to the language ... or
>is it a language-support issue that I don't understand?

``I live in europe 
''where they have all kind of funny quotes
,,sometimes located low
<<or in the middle 
``and indeed, sometimes in the american way

now 

`this is a quote 
'and this too
``and this is actually a ligature
"but not in every font

which is why in context we have \quote and \quotation, just to free the
author from bothering about these issues, and once you have encountered
documents with 5 european languages mixed, you're happy for any automatism -) 

Once you've lived in europe for a while you will understand why we need a
successor of tex that handles all those strange thingies. You may think
that the european community solved this, but each language really has
special things and they are defended with strong arguments [i have a real
funny book about all the contradicting dutch reform committees].  

The discussion about << is interesting in itself, since the cmr's don't
have them and using less then signs as substitute is horror for the real
typographer. So far I'm lucky that nobody noticed,   

Hans

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reviving and old thread ... Re: Senteces

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1496 bytes --]

Monday, October 16, 2000 Hans Hagen wrote:

HH> The discussion about << is interesting in itself, since the cmr's don't
HH> have them and using less then signs as substitute is horror for the real
HH> typographer. So far I'm lucky that nobody noticed,

For those who don't remember, the discussion about << was related
to the fact that Italian typography rules want guillemots to be
repeated at the beginning of each paragraph of a speech. Like
this:

<<Hello,>> he said << This is a speech I'm doing.

<<This second paragraph is always me speaking, and it wants a
guillemots too.

<<And so is this one, which is also the last, and thus ends
with closing guillemots.>>

<<I see.>> said the other.

Hans Hagen came out with some code, which I slightly rewrote, and is
attached to this post (btw, the code allows the "repeated" quote
to be different from the initial quote, like in:

<<Hello,>> he said << This is a speech I'm doing.

``This second paragraph is always me speaking, and it wants
quotes too. Note however that it is different from the
{\em beginning|-|of|-|speech} quoting.

``And so is this one, which is also the last, and thus ends
with closing guillemots.>>

).

Now I have another question for Hans Hagen: how do I create
shorcuts |<<| and |>>| similar to the |<| |>| ones, but that
activate speech instead of subsentences?

Finally, for the "horrible guillemots" problem ... have you
thought about using the ones available in the wasy symbol set?

--
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

[-- Attachment #2: speech.tex --]
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`
end

Re: Reviving and old thread ... Re: Senteces

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 423 bytes --]

Monday, May 28, 2001 Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:

GB> Now I have another question for Hans Hagen: how do I create
GB> shorcuts |<<| and |>>| similar to the |<| |>| ones, but that
GB> activate speech instead of subsentences?

I seem to have partially resolved the problem. It compiles, even
if it gives a few "Extra }'s" errors. Hans, can you check this
out, and see where do the errors come from?

--
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

[-- Attachment #2: speech.tex.bz2 --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 1587 bytes --]

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`
end

Re: Senteces

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

>
> I don't understand the issue.  If it's just, "quote properly," then
> why wouldn't the author just put in any necessary quotes in the
> source, as one would do in English?
>
>     \starttext
>     Bert said the following:
>
>     ``I am an ant.
>
>     ``I am an ant from Jupiter, and I have come here.
>
>     ``I have come here, and that is that.''
>     \stoptext
>
> using whatever quotation marks are appropriate to the language ... or
> is it a language-support issue that I don't understand?
>

It's not an "issue". It's just that I use |<| ... |>| whenever putting
spoken parts, and I should resort to that trick everytime I have multipar
speeches. And I cannot to

|<| Speech par 1.

|<| Speech par 2.|>|

because the second |<| turns out to be a subsentence (which is not the
case), and the |>| closes the subsentence instead of the sentence.

Giuseppe Bilotta