Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[siepo]

> At 07:56 PM 11/12/00 +0100, Denis B. Roegel wrote:
> 
>>only the knowledge found in the metafun manual), but the main thing
>>that annoyed me was the sometimes lack of clear diagnostic
>>in case of errors (either in my installation or in what I typed,
> 
> With the help/input of users they will eventually vanish. Keep in mind
> that it is not always easy to foresee what users do on their systems,
> and although texmf tree's are more and more standardized, differences
> remain. Fonts for instance will always be kind of messy.

Does nobody besides me have an interest in keeping (or rather bringing)
the size of Context within tolerable limits?

> - Pragma is currently two people; we hire hands when needed, and have
> an association with an it-company.
> 
> - We originate in educational technology, and we may safely assume
> that people working for us have no computer skils as demanded by tex.

As to `ordinary' people having to work with code: I do know that lots of
secretaries used to be been quite proficient with WP5.1. WP5.1 was
almost universally loved and praised for its `reveal codes' or
`underwater' panel. In the same vein, at several university departments
secretaries have been trained successfully to work with (La)TeX. Only,
nowadays users are being indoctrinated that `Code is for Geeks and not
for the rest of us'. It used not to be that way.

> - When writing educational material [which in many aspects can have
> quite complicated typo] we wanted to have more control over structure
> and automate as much as possible.
> 
> - The basic idea is: no manual intervention, so 'no user supplied
> vskips' and 'no manual page breaks'. A lot of effort went into
> spacing, and we're still improving that bit. Another idea is
> abstraction, which is why right from the start there were mechanisms
> for abbreviations and block reuse.

Automation is a two-edged sword. The more cases you try to cover
automatically, the harder it will be to solve manually the remaining
cases - which will always be there. TeX and LaTeX's vertical spacing are
a case in point. There is a break-even point somewhere.

Abstraction and indirection can prevent duplicate code but also make
code harder to understand. So, here too there is a break-even point and
I think that Context's font mechanism is way beyond it.

To qualify my own claim: this break-even point naturally moves with the
size of one's projects. But I know that I would like less of automation
and indirection.

> - This means that for using context to the full extend, you have to
> start from scratch. Think of what you need [which will happen when you
> key in the same thing for the tenth time] and look if there is an easy
> way. This is how context evolved: people coming to me and asking for
> simple less time consuming methods. The first users were those who
> never \def'ed a macro, didn't know anything about fonts etc.
> 
> - When context went public, and when this list was started, people
> started asking for features. Given that we need context for rather
> complicated documents, you may assume that there are more features
> than currently covered in the manual. Many of them are still in
> development, so I can choose: either say 'it can't be done' or just
> reveal the details. I've chosen for the latter at teh cost of
> complaints about lack of documentation.
>  
> - There is only a limited amount of functionality that can be hard
> coded. This is why there are hooks. There are for instance some 10
> table of content configs, but one can implement his/her own.
> Experienced tex users will do so, but at the same time will have the
> automatisms available deep down. [Believe me, there are gory details
> no sound person wants to know, i may describe them in more fundamental
> discussions about functionality.]

I think I would like Context a lot better if there was less of that
hard-coded functionality. It is better to spend 10 minutes writing a
line or two of code than to search for hours for something that may or
may not be there, and, with my luck, probably isn't.

> - The multi lingual user interface is there for a good reason: non
> technical users. We want to be be able to assign tasks with regards to
> entering tex documents [and even changing layout specs] to virtually
> everyone, but especially people with no math / tex / computer
> background.

I must assume you know what you are talking about, and the Germans on
this list certainly sound appreciative of the multilingual interface,
but all the same I find it hard to credit that English keywords are such
a stumbling block. But I hear that the multilingual interface is on its
way out of the kernel and is becoming an optional module. Which will
make me happy.

> - Documentation is an ongoing process. When working on the ref manual
> [the new one] i decided to split off metapost graphic in a separate
> manual. I will do the same with interactive documents, which will be
> combined with designing layouts, since thiose layouts are the most
> demanding. The ref manual will then only cover the basics. The
> complete interface will be covered in the interface documentation.

What are the basics? What is the `complete interface'?

> - One problem that people will encounter when using context aside
> latex or any tex, is that they need to forget things. As soon as you
> start looking for similar things, you will not easilly find them. The
> reason is that stucturing documents is the starting point and not so
> much designing them. Here we use context for collections of [often
> large] educational documents, and there we want for instance a 500
> page document with 400 figures to be processed without any manual
> intervention in often more than one incarnation. Or, a collection of
> quality assurance manual, made up out of a multitude of procedures,
> with flow charts and so, with extensive cross referencing, tocs at
> every level, a high level of data abstraction [no name, function,
> number or id is coded more than once]. Or, a recently started project,
> a math school method to be developped by a team of teachers, with a
> broad range of products, and therefore extensive reuse of resources.
> Most of the context features deal with those issues and in detail typo
> control [which for instance siep wants] is actually the second agenda.

Are you telling me not to use Context since it doesn't provide what I am
after?

> This control also depends on the level of module documentation. For 
> instance, core-rul, is a good example of a finished and stable module, 
> which in my opinion is also documented in an acceptable way. On the
> other hand, the otr, output routine and spacing engine, is still not
> fully finished and documented. It will be since i;m working on it now.
> As an example, i just implemented, willy egger may like that, multi
> column spread control, with page imposition support for figures or
> whatever spanning a page and so. Now this is no easy topic and will
> never be, even if i write 500 pages about it. -)
> 
> - Whatever is implemented, using tex (context) as a dtp system is
> always complicated. No matter how many hooks are provided.
> 
> - So, don't consider context finished yet, but you may enjoy [or hate]
> it nevertheless,
> 
> Hans 

Siep

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

> Does nobody besides me have an interest in keeping (or rather bringing)
> the size of Context within tolerable limits?

The specific subject eludes me here. I have gigabytes of disk space, and
little of it is ConTeXt, and I can's see how much RAM ConTeXt uses of the
128 MB that I have, and a 1200 page book compiles quite fast on the 733mHz
machine. So what's "tolerable"...

> Abstraction and indirection can prevent duplicate code but also make
> code harder to understand. So, here too there is a break-even point and
> I think that Context's font mechanism is way beyond it.

To kme the font mechanism looks so simple that I can't see how it can work
but it does. It's so transparent that I have a hard time finding out what
maps to what but once a font has been installed for me, it works and I am
happy to forget I ever tried to see through it.

> size of one's projects. But I know that I would like less of automation
> and indirection.

Not me, if I can just edit texts and let ConteXt make these into printable
docs, I am happy.

> I must assume you know what you are talking about

sounds like you get to take a peek in the cockpit of a 747 and you tell
that to the pilot ;=}}

> Are you telling me not to use Context since it doesn't
> provide what I am after?

I can't imagine hans would go around telling people who should or should
not use it. You are the judge of what you want to use, for what reasons,
and to have a good time with it.

> > - So, don't consider context finished yet, but you may enjoy [or hate]
> > it nevertheless,

Groet!

Frans

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Berend de Boer]

siepo@cybercomm.nl wrote:

> I think I would like Context a lot better if there was less of that
> hard-coded functionality. It is better to spend 10 minutes writing a
> line or two of code than to search for hours for something that may or
> may not be there, and, with my luck, probably isn't.

Well, I agree I had to spend some time adapting to ConTeXt, but in
general the good index, list of macro's and grep have been my friends.

I'm not really a hard-core TeX programmer myself, so it would take me at
least as long to lookup things in the TeX book than in the ConTeXt
manual.

I think what you need is some kind of HOW-TO document. Couldn't you
create an initial list, things you have found hard or impossible to do
with ConTeXt? In that document we can answer things about fine-tuning,
or making ConTeXt do things it does quite hard to prevent you to do :-)

Groetjes,

Berend. (-:

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 10:26 PM 11/13/00 +0100, siepo@cybercomm.nl wrote:

>I think I would like Context a lot better if there was less of that
>hard-coded functionality. It is better to spend 10 minutes writing a
>line or two of code than to search for hours for something that may or
>may not be there, and, with my luck, probably isn't.

You and a few others want to write those lines of code, but most people
don't. So, the problem is to find the mix. In the end all commands will
have hooks [although basic housekeeping is still up to the core] to pop in
own code.  

>I must assume you know what you are talking about, and the Germans on
>this list certainly sound appreciative of the multilingual interface,
>but all the same I find it hard to credit that English keywords are such
>a stumbling block. But I hear that the multilingual interface is on its
>way out of the kernel and is becoming an optional module. Which will
>make me happy.

Well, the low level code will be english. Interfaces are not so much
modules as well as baked into the kernel at format generation time, so you
[using the english interface] will not notice. This still leaves the fact
that commands will have their own namespace etc etc.   

BTW, in the process of cleaning up code, some code will move to run time
loading [automatic, which i have running in prototype], so finally the
kernel code will shrink a bit. 

>What are the basics? What is the `complete interface'?

basics: about what the beta is now, complete: about what the annotated qrc
is now

>Are you telling me not to use Context since it doesn't provide what I am
>after?

I think that the worst thing that has happened to the tex community is that
a highly programmable system has only lead to a handfull of macro packages.
I think that whatever system you use, users like you will hack in their own
code to suit their needs. And, indeed, if any other macro package suits
your needs better, use it. I think that latex, context and others can
happily coexist. It's better to be a happy user than fighting limitations. 

Hans 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:05 AM 11/14/00 +0100, Frans Goddijn wrote:
>> Does nobody besides me have an interest in keeping (or rather bringing)
>> the size of Context within tolerable limits?
>
>The specific subject eludes me here. I have gigabytes of disk space, and
>little of it is ConTeXt, and I can's see how much RAM ConTeXt uses of the
>128 MB that I have, and a 1200 page book compiles quite fast on the 733mHz
>machine. So what's "tolerable"...

In case one wonders what slows down context, it's not so much the
interface. Only in certain cases, parsing kay value pairs has a penalty.
Most of the low level code is highly [stopwatch] optimized and the modules
finishes/documented so far [some 50%] are rather efficient. Commands that
do a lot of testing / box packing/unpacking have their price. Backgrounds,
extensive layouts etc can slow down processing, but only when activated.
What does slow down, is generating a toc or series of buttons in a menu
area for each page anew in a 6000 page document, but I assume that i'm one
of the few who makes such animals. Even the metafun manual processes within
an acceptable time frame, given that some 1500 graphics are generated
runtime. 

Actually, real fast tex code is kind of equivalent to unreadable code -) 

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[siep.kroonenberg]

On 14 Nov, Berend de Boer wrote:
> siepo@cybercomm.nl wrote:
> 
>> I think I would like Context a lot better if there was less of that
>> hard-coded functionality. It is better to spend 10 minutes writing a
>> line or two of code than to search for hours for something that may or
>> may not be there, and, with my luck, probably isn't.
> 
> Well, I agree I had to spend some time adapting to ConTeXt, but in
> general the good index, list of macro's and grep have been my friends.
> 
> I'm not really a hard-core TeX programmer myself, so it would take me at
> least as long to lookup things in the TeX book than in the ConTeXt
> manual.
> 
> I think what you need is some kind of HOW-TO document. Couldn't you
> create an initial list, things you have found hard or impossible to do
> with ConTeXt? In that document we can answer things about fine-tuning,
> or making ConTeXt do things it does quite hard to prevent you to do :-)
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Berend. (-:

I don't need a HOW-TO. I need a formal description of commands and
parameters. I asked for this on this list but nobody volunteered.

What I tried to do at that occasion was creating a non-indenting list
structure. This turned out to require a new hack of Hans, which turned
out to contain a bug with vertical spacing for nested lists. Also, I
failed to turn justification back on. Then I gave up using lists for
this particular case.

-- 
Siep Kroonenberg
Kluwer Academic Publishers, Prepress Department
Achterom 119, 3311 KB Dordrecht, The Netherlands
siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 09:49 AM 11/14/00 +0100, siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl wrote:

>What I tried to do at that occasion was creating a non-indenting list
>structure. This turned out to require a new hack of Hans, which turned
>out to contain a bug with vertical spacing for nested lists. Also, I
>failed to turn justification back on. Then I gave up using lists for
>this particular case.

The list code is going to be rewritten some day since it is (1) quite old,
and (2) not yet documented, so maybe in the future i can make you happy
again -) 

Actually, when we used latex, the first thing I did was wrapping the
itemize into a parameterized shell, since we used itemizations a lot. 

One thing in the agenda is running lists, that is things like (1) this and
(2) that in a paragraph. 

Hans 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[siep.kroonenberg]

On 14 Nov, Berend de Boer wrote:
> siepo@cybercomm.nl wrote:
> 
>> I think I would like Context a lot better if there was less of that
>> hard-coded functionality. It is better to spend 10 minutes writing a
>> line or two of code than to search for hours for something that may or
>> may not be there, and, with my luck, probably isn't.
> 
> Well, I agree I had to spend some time adapting to ConTeXt, but in
> general the good index, list of macro's and grep have been my friends.
> 
> I'm not really a hard-core TeX programmer myself, so it would take me at
> least as long to lookup things in the TeX book than in the ConTeXt
> manual.
> 
> I think what you need is some kind of HOW-TO document. Couldn't you
> create an initial list, things you have found hard or impossible to do
> with ConTeXt? In that document we can answer things about fine-tuning,
> or making ConTeXt do things it does quite hard to prevent you to do :-)
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Berend. (-:

I just thought of another example of an important inadequately
documented topic: \setupbodyfont and \setupbodyfontenvironment. As to
the former: one can specify a Context font definition file, but this is
not documented in the manual. It is also a bit obscure what this command
is supposed to do with the various (combinations of) parameters. As to
the latter: this is the command to associate line height with font size,
but the manual makes no mention of this.

-- 
Siep Kroonenberg
Kluwer Academic Publishers, Prepress Department
Achterom 119, 3311 KB Dordrecht, The Netherlands
siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 03:35 PM 11/15/00 +0100, siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl wrote:
>On 14 Nov, Berend de Boer wrote:
>> siepo@cybercomm.nl wrote:
>> 
>>> I think I would like Context a lot better if there was less of that
>>> hard-coded functionality. It is better to spend 10 minutes writing a
>>> line or two of code than to search for hours for something that may or
>>> may not be there, and, with my luck, probably isn't.
>> 
>> Well, I agree I had to spend some time adapting to ConTeXt, but in
>> general the good index, list of macro's and grep have been my friends.
>> 
>> I'm not really a hard-core TeX programmer myself, so it would take me at
>> least as long to lookup things in the TeX book than in the ConTeXt
>> manual.
>> 
>> I think what you need is some kind of HOW-TO document. Couldn't you
>> create an initial list, things you have found hard or impossible to do
>> with ConTeXt? In that document we can answer things about fine-tuning,
>> or making ConTeXt do things it does quite hard to prevent you to do :-)
>> 
>> Groetjes,
>> 
>> Berend. (-:
>
>I just thought of another example of an important inadequately
>documented topic: \setupbodyfont and \setupbodyfontenvironment. As to
>the former: one can specify a Context font definition file, but this is
>not documented in the manual. It is also a bit obscure what this command
>is supposed to do with the various (combinations of) parameters. As to
>the latter: this is the command to associate line height with font size,
>but the manual makes no mention of this.

This is indeed a problem. The font-* files as well as s-* and m-* files and
alike are kind of reserved, if only to prevent name clashes. The idea is
that one makes personal (or local) styles with whatever name and loads them
with "\environment filename". Here we put all definitions with regards to
spacing fonts colors etc in such environments. There is a discussion on
environments in the manual, but i may more explicitly mention that all kind
of settings can go in there. 

Concerning the 'fine points of typo and spacing and lineheight and so ...',
this is probabaly for a few people to change, since you need to know what
you're doing. I even considered removing it from the manual and stick to
the module documentation which is the more low level docu, but I may make
dedicated manuals for such topics one day. [Also, some 'features' are not
even meant for users but there for experimental or other reasons. They may
become official features eventually. Compare this to an operating system:
there is much more deep down there, which you can access from within
progams calling system functions, but this does bot per definition mean
that anything discovered there is meant to be used that way. I really want
to prevent the kind of hacking i see coming by on for instance the pdftex
list; only officially stuff, either documented in the manuals or in the
module docu is meant to be visible.]

Hans 

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hraban]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> \page \noheaderandfooterlines \strut \page

I wished I had found that in the docs in time.

I'll send you a copy when it's printed & bound.
I'm sure you will find many details that I could have done better...
(But it has to be ready before christmas.)

EOT

Let's talk about something completely different... ;-)

Grüßlis vom Hraban!
---
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
http://www.planet-interkom.de/fiee.visuelle/formelsammlung.html

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Berend de Boer]

Hraban wrote:

> There were some widows and orphants left; my manual tricks (with \blank
> or \strut\par or \vfill) didn't work everywhere -- not *that* bad.

Perhaps making a few pages somewhat smaller or larger would have worked 
out quite nicely... :-)

Groetjes,

Berend. (-:

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 05:58 PM 11/22/00 +0100, Hraban wrote:
>Hans Hagen wrote:
>> >I didn't manage to get "empty" pages really empty -- the printshop will
>> >not impose them.
>> 
>> \startstandardmakeup
>> 
>> \stopstandardmakeup
>
>We had discussed that already: The pages must be numbered, but the numbers
>(and headers etc.) must not be shown.

\page \noheaderandfooterlines \strut \page

or

\page[left]
\page[right]
\page[+1]

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hraban]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> >I didn't manage to get "empty" pages really empty -- the printshop will
> >not impose them.
> 
> \startstandardmakeup
> 
> \stopstandardmakeup

We had discussed that already: The pages must be numbered, but the numbers
(and headers etc.) must not be shown.

Grüßlis vom Hraban!
---
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
http://www.planet-interkom.de/fiee.visuelle/formelsammlung.html

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 05:16 PM 11/22/00 +0100, Hraban wrote:
>Hans Hagen wrote:
>> If you clearly formulate the problems and supply minimal sample files, i'll
>> see what can be solved,
>
>Thanks, but too late.
>I didn't manage to get "empty" pages really empty -- the printshop will
>not impose them.

\startstandardmakeup

\stopstandardmakeup

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hraban]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> If you clearly formulate the problems and supply minimal sample files, i'll
> see what can be solved,

Thanks, but too late.
I didn't manage to get "empty" pages really empty -- the printshop will
not impose them.
There were some widows and orphants left; my manual tricks (with \blank
or \strut\par or \vfill) didn't work everywhere -- not *that* bad.
The index has some ugly column breaks, couldn't find out how to fix that.

(I learned not to use a "new" program for a big project that has a date...)

Grüßlis vom Hraban!
---
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
http://www.planet-interkom.de/fiee.visuelle/formelsammlung.html (neu)

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 12:12 PM 11/22/00 +0100, Hraban wrote:
>Frans Goddijn wrote:
>> Don't feel *too* bad about it. In fact, I have done some teeth
>> grinding myself in the past but that's with any system, LaTeX,
>> ConTeXt, operating systems; It happens when I'm convinced that
>
>Thank you for your consolation!
>
>I just sent my book to the printshop without all problems solved.
>With a layout program like QuarkXPress I could have fixed most
>by hand. Therefore some other things like t.o.c., index, footnotes
>would have been extremely annoying to do. All in all I think, I
>would have needed the same time. I'll stay with ConTeXt.

If you clearly formulate the problems and supply minimal sample files, i'll
see what can be solved, 

>My next big project is a twomonthly magazine. The workflow must
>run until the end of 2001. I think that's possible. ;-)

Guess so, 

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hraban]

Frans Goddijn wrote:
> Don't feel *too* bad about it. In fact, I have done some teeth
> grinding myself in the past but that's with any system, LaTeX,
> ConTeXt, operating systems; It happens when I'm convinced that

Thank you for your consolation!

I just sent my book to the printshop without all problems solved.
With a layout program like QuarkXPress I could have fixed most
by hand. Therefore some other things like t.o.c., index, footnotes
would have been extremely annoying to do. All in all I think, I
would have needed the same time. I'll stay with ConTeXt.

My next big project is a twomonthly magazine. The workflow must
run until the end of 2001. I think that's possible. ;-)

Grüßlis vom Hraban!
---
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
http://www.planet-interkom.de/fiee.visuelle/formelsammlung.html

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

Hello Siep,

> I am using Context because of the maps and because of my work,
and I
> don't always find it easy to handle my frustrations in a
constructive
> way. Sorry.

Don't feel *too* bad about it. In fact, I have done some teeth
grinding myself in the past but that's with any system, LaTeX,
ConTeXt, operating systems; It happens when I'm convinced that
what I want is just an inch away but I can't seem to get there in
one jump. I am typically an impatient student, as I want to be
impressed by great results that come instantaneous and that
rarely happens. I see something "not working" as a problem
messing up my day. A mutual friend like Taco seems to welcome any
software problem as one more festive opportunity to conquer it.
Herman, another friend, sees a source of amusement in any bug as
if thesebugs were specifically hidden there for him to discover.
If something won't work and I don't understand why, it makes me
feel unintelligent and I want it solved for me right away ;-))
And the fun part is that with (free!) software like ConTeXt it
usually is! Thanks Hans! And Taco!

Groet!

Frans

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[siep.kroonenberg]

On 21 Nov, Frans Goddijn wrote:
> Siep quoted a looong set of quotes and added:
> 
>> I would say that by not documenting `fine points of typo' in
> the manual,
>> you are locking out the non-programmers, not the non-designers.
> 
> I am not a programmer and also not a designer. I merely want to
> profit as simply as possible from the wonderful powers of
> ConTeXt. I pour in that ascii and ConTeXt puts out nice looking
> documents.
> 
> Did you forget adding a number of smileys here or are you really
> sour and bitter? What I've seen so far is that Hans is
> contributing immense amounts of time on ConTeXt development,
> making it available for free for those who might enjoy using it
> and he is always willing to explain where extra options are and
> what's on his to-do list. He offers help on this list and on
> TEX-NL. You also help out people who've got stuck somewhere which
> is great and you spend lots of time on MAPS for which everyone is
> grateful as well. I think it's helpful when you point out to-do's
> for Hans' list but sometimes it seems like you want to list a
> number of arguments why you should not be forced to use ConTeXt.
> Nobody here *is* pushing you! ;-)))
> 
> Note that smiley there.
> 
> Frans

I am using Context because of the maps and because of my work, and I
don't always find it easy to handle my frustrations in a constructive
way. Sorry. 

-- 
Siep Kroonenberg
Kluwer Academic Publishers, Prepress Department
Achterom 119, 3311 KB Dordrecht, The Netherlands
siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

Siep quoted a looong set of quotes and added:

> I would say that by not documenting `fine points of typo' in
the manual,
> you are locking out the non-programmers, not the non-designers.

I am not a programmer and also not a designer. I merely want to
profit as simply as possible from the wonderful powers of
ConTeXt. I pour in that ascii and ConTeXt puts out nice looking
documents.

Did you forget adding a number of smileys here or are you really
sour and bitter? What I've seen so far is that Hans is
contributing immense amounts of time on ConTeXt development,
making it available for free for those who might enjoy using it
and he is always willing to explain where extra options are and
what's on his to-do list. He offers help on this list and on
TEX-NL. You also help out people who've got stuck somewhere which
is great and you spend lots of time on MAPS for which everyone is
grateful as well. I think it's helpful when you point out to-do's
for Hans' list but sometimes it seems like you want to list a
number of arguments why you should not be forced to use ConTeXt.
Nobody here *is* pushing you! ;-)))

Note that smiley there.

Frans

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[siep.kroonenberg]

On 15 Nov, Hans Hagen wrote:
> At 03:35 PM 11/15/00 +0100, siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl wrote:
>>On 14 Nov, Berend de Boer wrote:
>>> siepo@cybercomm.nl wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I think I would like Context a lot better if there was less of that
>>>> hard-coded functionality. It is better to spend 10 minutes writing a
>>>> line or two of code than to search for hours for something that may or
>>>> may not be there, and, with my luck, probably isn't.
>>> 
>>> Well, I agree I had to spend some time adapting to ConTeXt, but in
>>> general the good index, list of macro's and grep have been my friends.
>>> 
>>> I'm not really a hard-core TeX programmer myself, so it would take me at
>>> least as long to lookup things in the TeX book than in the ConTeXt
>>> manual.
>>> 
>>> I think what you need is some kind of HOW-TO document. Couldn't you
>>> create an initial list, things you have found hard or impossible to do
>>> with ConTeXt? In that document we can answer things about fine-tuning,
>>> or making ConTeXt do things it does quite hard to prevent you to do :-)
>>> 
>>> Groetjes,
>>> 
>>> Berend. (-:
>>
>>I just thought of another example of an important inadequately
>>documented topic: \setupbodyfont and \setupbodyfontenvironment. As to
>>the former: one can specify a Context font definition file, but this is
>>not documented in the manual. It is also a bit obscure what this command
>>is supposed to do with the various (combinations of) parameters. As to
>>the latter: this is the command to associate line height with font size,
>>but the manual makes no mention of this.
> 
> This is indeed a problem. The font-* files as well as s-* and m-* files and
> alike are kind of reserved, if only to prevent name clashes. The idea is
> that one makes personal (or local) styles with whatever name and loads them
> with "\environment filename". Here we put all definitions with regards to
> spacing fonts colors etc in such environments. There is a discussion on
> environments in the manual, but i may more explicitly mention that all kind
> of settings can go in there. 
> 
> Concerning the 'fine points of typo and spacing and lineheight and so ...',
> this is probabaly for a few people to change, since you need to know what
> you're doing. I even considered removing it from the manual and stick to
> the module documentation which is the more low level docu, but I may make
> dedicated manuals for such topics one day. [Also, some 'features' are not
> even meant for users but there for experimental or other reasons. They may
> become official features eventually. Compare this to an operating system:
> there is much more deep down there, which you can access from within
> progams calling system functions, but this does bot per definition mean
> that anything discovered there is meant to be used that way. I really want
> to prevent the kind of hacking i see coming by on for instance the pdftex
> list; only officially stuff, either documented in the manuals or in the
> module docu is meant to be visible.]
> 
> Hans 

I would say that by not documenting `fine points of typo' in the manual,
you are locking out the non-programmers, not the non-designers.

-- 
Siep Kroonenberg
Kluwer Academic Publishers, Prepress Department
Achterom 119, 3311 KB Dordrecht, The Netherlands
siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

Thanks Coydell Rivers, I'll try that out next week when I'm sure I have the
spare time to do it in an orderly fashion ;=}} This week i'm so busy that I
am sure al that can go wrong will slip up ;=}}}

Groet1

Frans

----- Original Message -----
From: "Coydell Rivers" <cdellr@earthlink.net>

> > > Otherwise, copy runperl.exe to texexec.exe
> > > and put both in you path

> Here is one of many solution, without copying files onto each other.
> 1. When your run of texexec.exe --verbose, finds all of it's files.
> 2. Locate your "TeXProgramPath" and copy these files to that path:
>     a.'fdf2tan.exe,fdf2tan.pl,mptopdf.exe,mptopdf.pl,texerec.exe,
>
texexec.pl,texexec.ini,texshow.exe,texshow.pl,texutil.exe,texutil.pl'
> 3. Now you can run any one of these files alone with, LaTeX or whatever.
>
> I'am runing on a win32 system, and my "TeXProgramPath"
"f:\fptex\bin\win32\"

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

yes, found in cont-tmf.zip, and there in the directory context,
subdirectory perltk

Thanks!

F

> it's in the zip, disguised as runperl.zip, so a zipped zip

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 03:16 PM 11/14/00 +0100, Frans Goddijn wrote:
>> can't you associate a suffix?
>
>That's an ide. On the other machine I do have associated .tex with
>"texexec" but here, a very long line would be necessary.
>
>> Otherwise, copy runperl.exe to texexec.exe
>> and put both in you path
>
>Ah, I think I remember. I did a search but I don't have "runperl.exe"
>anywhare on my system here. I recall there once was a message about this
>executable having been forgotten in a new distribution, and an alternative
>place where to find it but I never got around to search for it. Is it
>somewhere on the pragma-ade site? Otherwise I think it's on my pc in
>Belgium and I can search it there.

it's in the zip, disguised as runperl.zip, so a zipped zip
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

> can't you associate a suffix?

That's an ide. On the other machine I do have associated .tex with
"texexec" but here, a very long line would be necessary.

> Otherwise, copy runperl.exe to texexec.exe
> and put both in you path

Ah, I think I remember. I did a search but I don't have "runperl.exe"
anywhare on my system here. I recall there once was a message about this
executable having been forgotten in a new distribution, and an alternative
place where to find it but I never got around to search for it. Is it
somewhere on the pragma-ade site? Otherwise I think it's on my pc in
Belgium and I can search it there.

Groet!

F

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 01:36 PM 11/14/00 +0100, Frans Goddijn wrote:
>> Ok then, let's promote the dutch interface a bit. If you want to make
>> identical badges, or business cards, or so:
>>
>> Just run this through "texexec filename"
>
>On my PC in Belgium that works fine, here on my NT machine somehow I need
>to give the full path to perl and the texexec.pl file before it runs but I
>do that through a batchfile. To be honest I haven't taken the time to find
>out how I can just call texexec here.

can't you associate a suffix? Otherwise, copy runperl.exe to texexec.exe
and put both in you path

>The result looks splendid though, including the marks where to cut. Thanks!
>For the badges the sizes would need to be adjusted, e.g. I would need only
>a hairline cross where to cut the 3x8 labels apart.
>
>> Now run "texexec filename" and afterwards "texexec --pdfcomb --comb=3*5
>> filename" and you get a file texexec.pdf with all the badges.
>
>Are you sure it would be "texexec.pdf"? I don't get such a file and in this
>example my badges are almost A4 in size each ;=}}

Hm. Maybe --pdfcombine --combinat=2*5 [more unique switch]

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Berend de Boer]

Frans Goddijn wrote:
> 
> Forgot to mention that I needed to delete the "pos" from:
> 
> > \stelkorpsin[10pt,pos]
> 
> I forgot when pos does, but without it, it works. 

Pos loads the postscript fonts, usually you first load the Karl Berry
font names first:

\stelkorpsin[ber,pos,10pt]

Groetjes,

Berend. (-:

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

Forgot to mention that I needed to delete the "pos" from:

> \stelkorpsin[10pt,pos]

I forgot when pos does, but without it, it works. I also added the line on
top that forces PDF output. In my ConTeXt /pdfTeX setup i haven't figured
out yet how to dvips to my printer so it's most convenient for me to start
the Acrobat reader and print from there.

Groet!

Frans

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

> Ok then, let's promote the dutch interface a bit. If you want to make
> identical badges, or business cards, or so:
>
> Just run this through "texexec filename"

On my PC in Belgium that works fine, here on my NT machine somehow I need
to give the full path to perl and the texexec.pl file before it runs but I
do that through a batchfile. To be honest I haven't taken the time to find
out how I can just call texexec here.

The result looks splendid though, including the marks where to cut. Thanks!
For the badges the sizes would need to be adjusted, e.g. I would need only
a hairline cross where to cut the 3x8 labels apart.

> Now run "texexec filename" and afterwards "texexec --pdfcomb --comb=3*5
> filename" and you get a file texexec.pdf with all the badges.

Are you sure it would be "texexec.pdf"? I don't get such a file and in this
example my badges are almost A4 in size each ;=}}

No hurry here since the badges are now printed and cut and inserted in
their plastic/safety pin arrangement ;=}}

Groet!

Frans

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Hans Hagen]

At 10:32 AM 11/14/00 +0100, Frans Goddijn wrote:

>I still have a "minimal installation" somewhere from the era when a 20MB
>hard disk was considered very big, and TeX could then run after installing
>from one (smallest) or three floppies. If I installed that now, Tex might
>be so incredibly fast that the speed might make the data fly off the
>spinning hard disk ;=}}}

Try to run the tex book [is on the tex live cd]: that's fast, mainly
because all code is in-line [no abstraction]. Then if you want 1988 speed,
run the texbook with the nts version -) 

>Would I have preferred LaTeX or ConTeXt to solve the same problem? The two
>old LaTeX files look like cars without the hood on, wires hanging out on
>all sides which was good in a way because I wriggled and fidgeted until one
>of the files worked for my new use. A typical ConTeXt file would have
>looked clean, slick, and it would only have had the names needed on the
>badge, and it would either have worked or not, and it would have taken me
>either a call/email to Hans or an extensive list of examples to sort it
>out. No cables and buttons hanging out ;=}}

Ok then, let's promote the dutch interface a bit. If you want to make
identical badges, or business cards, or so: 

Just run this through "texexec filename" 

% output=pdftex interface=nl

\definieerpapierformaat
  [kaartje]
  [breedte=5cm,
   hoogte=3cm]

\stelpapierformaatin
  [kaartje]
  [A4]

\stellayoutin
  [nx=3,ny=10,
   dx=2cm,dy=2cm,
   plaats=midden, 
   markering=aan,
   rugwit=0cm,
   kopwit=0cm,
   marge=0pt,
   hoofd=0pt,
   voet=0pt,
   breedte=midden,
   hoogte=midden]

\stelkorpsin[10pt,pos]

\def\Badge#1#2#3%
  {\startstandaardopmaak
     \vfill\bfb#1\vfill\bfa#2\vfill#3\vfill
   \stopstandaardopmaak}

\starttekst 

\Badge{Frans Goddijn}{Good Old Typesetting}{Arnhem NL}

\stoptekst

For different ones, say: 

% output=pdftex interface=nl

\definieerpapierformaat
  [kaartje]
  [breedte=5cm,
   hoogte=3cm]

\stelpapierformaatin
  [kaartje]
  [kaartje]

\stellayoutin
  [plaats=midden, 
   markering=aan,
   rugwit=.5cm,
   kopwit=.5cm,
   hoofd=0pt,
   voet=0pt,
   breedte=midden,
   hoogte=midden]

\stelkorpsin[10pt,pos]

\def\Badge#1#2#3%
  {\startstandaardopmaak
     \vfill\bfb#1\vfill\bfa#2\vfill#3\vfill
   \stopstandaardopmaak}

\starttekst 

\Badge{Frans Goddijn}{Good Old Typesetting}{Arnhem NL}
\Badge{Frans Goddijn}{Good Old Typesetting}{Arnhem NL}
\Badge{Frans Goddijn}{Good Old Typesetting}{Arnhem NL}
\Badge{Frans Goddijn}{Good Old Typesetting}{Arnhem NL}
\Badge{Frans Goddijn}{Good Old Typesetting}{Arnhem NL}

\stoptekst

Now run "texexec filename" and afterwards "texexec --pdfcomb --comb=3*5
filename" and you get a file texexec.pdf with all the badges. 

The main thing here is to consider badges as pages. As with many things,
don't immediately start programming, since many problems are old ones and
may be solved. One of the issues I want to cover in the doc design [screen
docs] manual is how to develop a way of thinking in terms of structure and
defining layouts. 

Hans 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
                      Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[Frans Goddijn]

Siep wrote

> Toshiba laptop. So, for me, Context is big. It is also a LOT bigger and
> slower than LaTeX, not to mention plain tex.

I still have a "minimal installation" somewhere from the era when a 20MB
hard disk was considered very big, and TeX could then run after installing
from one (smallest) or three floppies. If I installed that now, Tex might
be so incredibly fast that the speed might make the data fly off the
spinning hard disk ;=}}}

But I would probably not have some of the features that have been added
since.

When running LaTeX, I load my own fg.sty file which in turn loads a great
number of other stylefiles that I needed at one time. It's been so long
since I added these features that often I don't remember what I needed them
for and which stylefiles I could safely ditch without missing something.
Years ago I could notice that my LaTeX was slower than someone else's
because I loaded all those stylefiles. These days bigness and speed seems a
much less important feature.

Last night I was making the lapel labels for the badges of the upcoming NTG
meeting in Arnhem, (for others: coming thursday, and Hanh The Thanh, Siep
Kroonenberg, Karel Skoupy and Willi Egger will each give interesting talks!
If you want to come, come along!) I noticed that the plastic badge holders
that I bought for the meeting had a different size than the ones we used to
have. The LaTeX file that I inherited from the former user for these badge
prints was so dense for me with accumulated codes and commands that I
failed to simply change the size. I then adapted a LaTeX file that I had
for stickers of that size which worked, but it kept me at my desk until
2.30am.

Would I have preferred LaTeX or ConTeXt to solve the same problem? The two
old LaTeX files look like cars without the hood on, wires hanging out on
all sides which was good in a way because I wriggled and fidgeted until one
of the files worked for my new use. A typical ConTeXt file would have
looked clean, slick, and it would only have had the names needed on the
badge, and it would either have worked or not, and it would have taken me
either a call/email to Hans or an extensive list of examples to sort it
out. No cables and buttons hanging out ;=}}

My preference is ConTeXt because entering that visible jungle of LaTeX
wires makes me feel stupid, even though I feel mighty smart after I come
out of that jungle with a newly working LaTeX file. Of course, I know that
beneath the shiny semitransparent surface of ConTeXt there's even more
wires, mappings to mappings of handles.

For your line of work, you need to get into the bowels anyhow, so I can see
how you would prefer a car that left the factory as a versatile "do it
yourself" package instead of a powerful shiny top-design car that says "no
user serviceable parts inside" ;=}}} But on a sunny day, when I wanted to
impress the world, I'd go touring in that shiny car. If I got stuck on the
way, I'd maybe wish there were more wires hanging out.

> Guess I should have added ;-)

I will settle for a smile anytime! ;=}}}

Groet!

Frans

Re: Fwd: Re: beginner's questions

[siep.kroonenberg]

On 14 Nov, Frans Goddijn wrote:
>> Does nobody besides me have an interest in keeping (or rather bringing)
>> the size of Context within tolerable limits?
> 
> The specific subject eludes me here. I have gigabytes of disk space, and
> little of it is ConTeXt, and I can's see how much RAM ConTeXt uses of the
> 128 MB that I have, and a 1200 page book compiles quite fast on the 733mHz
> machine. So what's "tolerable"...

If you need to track down a problem, there is a lot of code where the
problem may be hidden. And with tracing on, logfiles can get very very
big. And I am not ready yet to ditch by 166MHz/32MB/2GB dual boot
Toshiba laptop. So, for me, Context is big. It is also a LOT bigger and
slower than LaTeX, not to mention plain tex.

>> Abstraction and indirection can prevent duplicate code but also make
>> code harder to understand. So, here too there is a break-even point and
>> I think that Context's font mechanism is way beyond it.
> 
> To kme the font mechanism looks so simple that I can't see how it can work
> but it does. It's so transparent that I have a hard time finding out what
> maps to what but once a font has been installed for me, it works and I am
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> Are you telling me not to use Context since it doesn't
>> provide what I am after?
> 
> I can't imagine hans would go around telling people who should or should
> not use it. You are the judge of what you want to use, for what reasons,
> and to have a good time with it.

Guess I should have added ;-)
> 
> Frans
> 
> 

-- 
Siep Kroonenberg
Kluwer Academic Publishers, Prepress Department
Achterom 119, 3311 KB Dordrecht, The Netherlands
siep.kroonenberg@wkap.nl