[NTG-context] upload

[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

Thanks to Bruce end others for providing input and testing it we managed 
to get binary that works on apple arm. Hopefully there are not more 
issues as we need to make a tex live 2025 snapshot this month.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

«Tagged PDF» still is broken:


\setupbackend[
format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
level=0]

\setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
\setupbackend[export=yes]

\starttext
TEST
\stoptext


Steffen




> Am 12.02.2025 um 12:05 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thanks to Bruce end others for providing input and testing it we managed to get binary that works on apple arm. Hopefully there are not more issues as we need to make a tex live 2025 snapshot this month.
> 
> Hans

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
> 
> 
> \setupbackend[
> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
> level=0]
> 
> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
> \setupbackend[export=yes]
> 
> \starttext
> TEST
> \stoptext

define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will 
disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
> 
> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>> \setupbackend[
>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>> level=0]
>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>> \starttext
>> TEST
>> \stoptext
> 
> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway


When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX 
then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.

When I use the current ConText its says »No«.

And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
Steffen 

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>
>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>> \setupbackend[
>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>> level=0]
>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>> \starttext
>>> TEST
>>> \stoptext
>>
>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
> 
> 
> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
> 
> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
> 
> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).

whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb 
they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full 
acrobat prescription

anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and 
not confuse it with exporting .. think something

\setuptagging
   [state=start]

\setupbackend
   [format=ua2]

\starttext
     TEST
\stoptext

instead.

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 13.02.2025 um 17:37 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
> 
> On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>> 
>>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>>> \setupbackend[
>>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>>> level=0]
>>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>>> \starttext
>>>> TEST
>>>> \stoptext
>>> 
>>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
>> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
>> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
>> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
>> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
> 
> whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full acrobat prescription

(of course not)


> anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and not confuse it with exporting .. think something
> 
> \setuptagging
> [state=start]
> 
> \setupbackend
> [format=ua2]
> 
> \starttext
>   TEST
> \stoptext
> 
> instead.
> 
> Hans



Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently desired alt-text:

\setuptagging
[state=start]

\setupbackend
[format=ua2]

\setupexternalfigures[location=default]

\starttext
  \startPDFalternativetext{this is a cow}
      \externalfigure[cow]
  \stopPDFalternativetext
\stoptext


Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check if it fulfills their needs.

Steffen



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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 14.02.2025 um 11:36 schrieb Steffen Wolfrum <context@st.estfiles.de>:
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 13.02.2025 um 17:37 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>> 
>> On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>>> 
>>>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>>>> \setupbackend[
>>>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>>>> level=0]
>>>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>>>> \starttext
>>>>> TEST
>>>>> \stoptext
>>>> 
>>>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
>>> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
>>> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
>>> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
>>> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
>> 
>> whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full acrobat prescription
> 
> (of course not)
> 
> 
>> anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and not confuse it with exporting .. think something
>> 
>> \setuptagging
>> [state=start]
>> 
>> \setupbackend
>> [format=ua2]
>> 
>> \starttext
>>  TEST
>> \stoptext
>> 
>> instead.
>> 
>> Hans
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently desired alt-text:
> 
> \setuptagging
> [state=start]
> 
> \setupbackend
> [format=ua2]
> 
> \setupexternalfigures[location=default]
> 
> \starttext
>  \startPDFalternativetext{this is a cow}
>      \externalfigure[cow]
>  \stopPDFalternativetext
> \stoptext
> 
> 
> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check if it fulfills their needs.
> 
> Steffen


I just received the feedback from the publishers: there is no alternative text in this example.

:o(

Steffen
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/14/2025 11:36 AM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 13.02.2025 um 17:37 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>
>> On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>>>
>>>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>>>> \setupbackend[
>>>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>>>> level=0]
>>>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>>>> \starttext
>>>>> TEST
>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>
>>>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
>>> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
>>> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
>>> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
>>> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
>>
>> whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full acrobat prescription
> 
> (of course not)
> 
> 
>> anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and not confuse it with exporting .. think something
>>
>> \setuptagging
>> [state=start]
>>
>> \setupbackend
>> [format=ua2]
>>
>> \starttext
>>    TEST
>> \stoptext
>>
>> instead.
>>
>> Hans
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently desired alt-text:
> 
> \setuptagging
> [state=start]
> 
> \setupbackend
> [format=ua2]
> 
> \setupexternalfigures[location=default]
> 
> \starttext
>    \startPDFalternativetext{this is a cow}
>        \externalfigure[cow]
>    \stopPDFalternativetext
> \stoptext
> 
> 
> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check if it fulfills their needs.

I assume you can try and did so because you indicated that your viewer 
gave some report. Of course you need to make sure not to introduce 
unwanted spaces (as in your example).

We can actually put an Alt on a specific image element (by setting 
label={...}) but for now it's disabled for now. Last time we checked 
some validators didn't like it and viewerd didn't do anything useful 
with it so ity made no sense to waste more time on it.

Just putting stuff in a pdf for the sake of having something is is 
tricky because who knows what future validation makes of it. It's a mess 
(and always has been and likely will be).

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 14.02.2025 um 11:58 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
> 
> On 2/14/2025 11:36 AM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Am 13.02.2025 um 17:37 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>> 
>>> On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>>>>> \setupbackend[
>>>>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>>>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>>>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>>>>> level=0]
>>>>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>>>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>>>>> \starttext
>>>>>> TEST
>>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>> 
>>>>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
>>>> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
>>>> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
>>>> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
>>>> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
>>> 
>>> whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full acrobat prescription
>> (of course not)
>>> anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and not confuse it with exporting .. think something
>>> 
>>> \setuptagging
>>> [state=start]
>>> 
>>> \setupbackend
>>> [format=ua2]
>>> 
>>> \starttext
>>>   TEST
>>> \stoptext
>>> 
>>> instead.
>>> 
>>> Hans
>> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently desired alt-text:
>> \setuptagging
>> [state=start]
>> \setupbackend
>> [format=ua2]
>> \setupexternalfigures[location=default]
>> \starttext
>>   \startPDFalternativetext{this is a cow}
>>       \externalfigure[cow]
>>   \stopPDFalternativetext
>> \stoptext
>> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check if it fulfills their needs.
> 
> I assume you can try and did so because you indicated that your viewer gave some report.

Acrobat Reader can be downloaded for free. In the Document Properties it reports only whether the PDF is a «Tagged PDF» or not. The tags themselves can only be seen by Acrobat Pro. (Due to the costs probably only publishing house work with Acrobat Pro.)


> Of course you need to make sure not to introduce unwanted spaces (as in your example).

I didn't want to introduce unwanted spaces. Where are spaces in my example?


> We can actually put an Alt on a specific image element (by setting label={...}) but for now it's disabled for now. Last time we checked some validators didn't like it and viewerd didn't do anything useful with it so ity made no sense to waste more time on it.
> 
> Just putting stuff in a pdf for the sake of having something is is tricky because who knows what future validation makes of it. It's a mess (and always has been and likely will be).

Strange. I don't know the situation in The Netherlands, but at least in Germany all publisher are obligated by law from 28th of  June 2025 on to provide books as PDF with tags and these alternative texts.

How do we manage this?

Steffen


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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/14/2025 12:29 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> 
> 
>> Am 14.02.2025 um 11:58 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>
>> On 2/14/2025 11:36 AM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>> Am 13.02.2025 um 17:37 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>>>
>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>>>>>> \setupbackend[
>>>>>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>>>>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>>>>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>>>>>> level=0]
>>>>>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>>>>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>>>>>> \starttext
>>>>>>> TEST
>>>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>>>
>>>>>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
>>>>> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
>>>>> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
>>>>> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
>>>>> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
>>>>
>>>> whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full acrobat prescription
>>> (of course not)
>>>> anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and not confuse it with exporting .. think something
>>>>
>>>> \setuptagging
>>>> [state=start]
>>>>
>>>> \setupbackend
>>>> [format=ua2]
>>>>
>>>> \starttext
>>>>    TEST
>>>> \stoptext
>>>>
>>>> instead.
>>>>
>>>> Hans
>>> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently desired alt-text:
>>> \setuptagging
>>> [state=start]
>>> \setupbackend
>>> [format=ua2]
>>> \setupexternalfigures[location=default]
>>> \starttext
>>>    \startPDFalternativetext{this is a cow}
>>>        \externalfigure[cow]
>>>    \stopPDFalternativetext
>>> \stoptext
>>> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check if it fulfills their needs.
>>
>> I assume you can try and did so because you indicated that your viewer gave some report.
> 
> Acrobat Reader can be downloaded for free. In the Document Properties it reports only whether the PDF is a «Tagged PDF» or not. The tags themselves can only be seen by Acrobat Pro. (Due to the costs probably only publishing house work with Acrobat Pro.)

I rarely open Acrobat Reader ... if onlty because I then need time to 
recover from an acute allergy for intrusive user interface changes and / 
or its offer to come up with summaries etc usign some ai and i don't 
even know of the file isn't sent somewhere.

>> Of course you need to make sure not to introduce unwanted spaces (as in your example).
> 
> I didn't want to introduce unwanted spaces. Where are spaces in my example?

after } and then after ]

>> We can actually put an Alt on a specific image element (by setting label={...}) but for now it's disabled for now. Last time we checked some validators didn't like it and viewerd didn't do anything useful with it so ity made no sense to waste more time on it.
>>
>> Just putting stuff in a pdf for the sake of having something is is tricky because who knows what future validation makes of it. It's a mess (and always has been and likely will be).
> 
> Strange. I don't know the situation in The Netherlands, but at least in Germany all publisher are obligated by law from 28th of  June 2025 on to provide books as PDF with tags and these alternative texts.

Do they really have to provide books as pdf? I only buy printed books so 
I might be out of touch with reality (i.e. getting pdf's). Also, define 
publisher ...

I never had a publisher ask for something tagged. If they would come up 
with these demands I'd ask them to put their money where their mouth is 
(pay for development, extra work involved, tools needed).

> How do we manage this?

If 'we' means 'me' (Hans) ... well, some of these rules only apply to 
organizations that have a turnaround over 7 digits so I'm way of from 
worrying. Mikael and I looked into tagging for educational materials and 
stopped where it still made some sense (read: university tools are 
happy), and will pick up in a few years when there might be some usefull 
tools. Also we found out that with LLM based chatbots can interpret an 
untagged pdf quite well so we'll see.

That said: we have tagging in mkiv ... no one really cared that much (no 
tools that use them) ... and in mkxl we updated it a bit (still no 
tools) only to find out that tagged pdf (and the standard) has become 
fluid, seems to evolve, is kind of unstable, is a mess ... does a 
conforming 2 year old doc still validate? ... one cannot expect us to 
keep adapting for the sake of adapting, right? As it's all volunteer 
work, there are more instresting typesetting related things to explore.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 2/14/25 11:57, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> Am 14.02.2025 um 11:36 schrieb Steffen Wolfrum <context@st.estfiles.de>:
>> […]
>> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently
>> desired alt-text:
>> […]
>> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check
>> if it fulfills their needs.>
> I just received the feedback from the publishers: there is no
> alternative text in this example.

Hi Steffen and Hans,

there is no alternative text in the PDF code because of lpdf-ini.lmt:

   local f_actual_text     = formatters["/Span <</ActualText %s >> BDC"]

-  local f_alternative_text  = formatters["/Span <</AltText %s >> BDC"]
+  local f_alternative_text  = formatters["/Span <</Alt %s >> BDC"]

   local s_actual_text_e     <const> = "EMC ET"

The PDF key name is "Alt"
(https://opensource.adobe.com/dc-acrobat-sdk-docs/pdfstandards/PDF32000_2008.pdf#page=567),
from PDF-1.3
(https://github.com/pdf-association/arlington-pdf-model/blob/master/tsv/1.3/StructElem.tsv)
to the latest version
(https://github.com/pdf-association/arlington-pdf-model/blob/master/tsv/latest/StructElem.tsv).

There seems to be no "AltText" key in the PDF specification, afaIk.

Besides other questions related to the accessibility directive, it would
be great to fix this issue.

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/14/2025 4:50 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:
> On 2/14/25 11:57, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Am 14.02.2025 um 11:36 schrieb Steffen Wolfrum <context@st.estfiles.de>:
>>> […]
>>> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently
>>> desired alt-text:
>>> […]
>>> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check
>>> if it fulfills their needs.>
>> I just received the feedback from the publishers: there is no
>> alternative text in this example.
> 
> Hi Steffen and Hans,
> 
> there is no alternative text in the PDF code because of lpdf-ini.lmt:
> 
>     local f_actual_text     = formatters["/Span <</ActualText %s >> BDC"]
> 
> -  local f_alternative_text  = formatters["/Span <</AltText %s >> BDC"]
> +  local f_alternative_text  = formatters["/Span <</Alt %s >> BDC"]
> 
>     local s_actual_text_e     <const> = "EMC ET"
> 
> The PDF key name is "Alt"
> (https://opensource.adobe.com/dc-acrobat-sdk-docs/pdfstandards/PDF32000_2008.pdf#page=567),
> from PDF-1.3
> (https://github.com/pdf-association/arlington-pdf-model/blob/master/tsv/1.3/StructElem.tsv)
> to the latest version
> (https://github.com/pdf-association/arlington-pdf-model/blob/master/tsv/latest/StructElem.tsv).
> 
> There seems to be no "AltText" key in the PDF specification, afaIk.
> 
> Besides other questions related to the accessibility directive, it would
> be great to fix this issue.

As you tested viewers before, can you check which ones do something with 
Alt and/or ActualText at all?

Hans

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 983 bytes --]

On 2/14/25 17:13, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 2/14/2025 4:50 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:
>> […]
>> The PDF key name is "Alt"
>> […]
>> Besides other questions related to the accessibility directive, it would
>> be great to fix this issue.
>
> As you tested viewers before, can you check which ones do something with
> Alt and/or ActualText at all?

Many thanks for your fast reply, Hans.

I attach the sample file (Alt value "this is a cow", ActualText value
"hoh").

I don’t have access to a Windows computer now, so I cannot test Acrobat
or Chrome/Edge now.

With "Alt", these viewers seem to find no "cow" (using the previous
sample from Steffen): PDF.js, poppler (Evince/Okular), xpdf, mupdf-gl
(and SumatraPDF).

With "ActualText", the compilant viewers are mupdf-gl (plus SumatraPDF),
poppler (Evince/Okular), xpdf. PDF.js has only an open issue
(https://github.com/mozilla/pdf.js/issues/12237).

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo

[-- Attachment #2: cow-hoh.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 14475 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 511 bytes --]

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/14/2025 6:05 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:
> On 2/14/25 17:13, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 2/14/2025 4:50 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:
>>> […]
>>> The PDF key name is "Alt"
>>> […]
>>> Besides other questions related to the accessibility directive, it would
>>> be great to fix this issue.
>>
>> As you tested viewers before, can you check which ones do something with
>> Alt and/or ActualText at all?
> 
> Many thanks for your fast reply, Hans.
> 
> I attach the sample file (Alt value "this is a cow", ActualText value
> "hoh").
> 
> I don’t have access to a Windows computer now, so I cannot test Acrobat
> or Chrome/Edge now.
> 
> With "Alt", these viewers seem to find no "cow" (using the previous
> sample from Steffen): PDF.js, poppler (Evince/Okular), xpdf, mupdf-gl
> (and SumatraPDF).
> 
> With "ActualText", the compilant viewers are mupdf-gl (plus SumatraPDF),
> poppler (Evince/Okular), xpdf. PDF.js has only an open issue
> (https://github.com/mozilla/pdf.js/issues/12237).

So should one set both? Does it hurt? I suppose one is used for speach 
and another for copy-paste and that viewers mix and match what they like 
here. Could have the same values (when we set label)

You can try to uncoment in lpdf-tag:

              -- Alt        = alternate,

          -- Alt  = pdfunicode(label ~= "" and label or "image"),

irr we commented because some validator didn't like it but maybe we 
should not care about that too much. (Could also be under 
\enableexperiment control).

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 14.02.2025 um 13:26 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
> 
> On 2/14/2025 12:29 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Am 14.02.2025 um 11:58 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>> 
>>> On 2/14/2025 11:36 AM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>> Am 13.02.2025 um 17:37 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>>>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>>>>>>> \setupbackend[
>>>>>>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>>>>>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>>>>>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>>>>>>> level=0]
>>>>>>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>>>>>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>>>>>>> \starttext
>>>>>>>> TEST
>>>>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
>>>>>> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt  ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
>>>>>> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties > Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
>>>>>> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
>>>>>> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
>>>>> 
>>>>> whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full acrobat prescription
>>>> (of course not)
>>>>> anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and not confuse it with exporting .. think something
>>>>> 
>>>>> \setuptagging
>>>>> [state=start]
>>>>> 
>>>>> \setupbackend
>>>>> [format=ua2]
>>>>> 
>>>>> \starttext
>>>>>  TEST
>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>> 
>>>>> instead.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hans
>>>> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently desired alt-text:
>>>> \setuptagging
>>>> [state=start]
>>>> \setupbackend
>>>> [format=ua2]
>>>> \setupexternalfigures[location=default]
>>>> \starttext
>>>>  \startPDFalternativetext{this is a cow}
>>>>      \externalfigure[cow]
>>>>  \stopPDFalternativetext
>>>> \stoptext
>>>> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check if it fulfills their needs.
>>> 
>>> I assume you can try and did so because you indicated that your viewer gave some report.
>> Acrobat Reader can be downloaded for free. In the Document Properties it reports only whether the PDF is a «Tagged PDF» or not. The tags themselves can only be seen by Acrobat Pro. (Due to the costs probably only publishing house work with Acrobat Pro.)
> 
> I rarely open Acrobat Reader ... if onlty because I then need time to recover from an acute allergy for intrusive user interface changes and / or its offer to come up with summaries etc usign some ai and i don't even know of the file isn't sent somewhere.
> 
>>> Of course you need to make sure not to introduce unwanted spaces (as in your example).
>> I didn't want to introduce unwanted spaces. Where are spaces in my example?
> 
> after } and then after ]
> 
>>> We can actually put an Alt on a specific image element (by setting label={...}) but for now it's disabled for now. Last time we checked some validators didn't like it and viewerd didn't do anything useful with it so ity made no sense to waste more time on it.
>>> 
>>> Just putting stuff in a pdf for the sake of having something is is tricky because who knows what future validation makes of it. It's a mess (and always has been and likely will be).
>> Strange. I don't know the situation in The Netherlands, but at least in Germany all publisher are obligated by law from 28th of  June 2025 on to provide books as PDF with tags and these alternative texts.
> 
> Do they really have to provide books as pdf? I only buy printed books so I might be out of touch with reality (i.e. getting pdf's). Also, define publisher ...
> 
> I never had a publisher ask for something tagged. If they would come up with these demands I'd ask them to put their money where their mouth is (pay for development, extra work involved, tools needed).
> 
>> How do we manage this?
> 
> If 'we' means 'me' (Hans) ... well, some of these rules only apply to organizations that have a turnaround over 7 digits so I'm way of from worrying. Mikael and I looked into tagging for educational materials and stopped where it still made some sense (read: university tools are happy), and will pick up in a few years when there might be some usefull tools. Also we found out that with LLM based chatbots can interpret an untagged pdf quite well so we'll see.
> 
> That said: we have tagging in mkiv ... no one really cared that much (no tools that use them) ... and in mkxl we updated it a bit (still no tools) only to find out that tagged pdf (and the standard) has become fluid, seems to evolve, is kind of unstable, is a mess ... does a conforming 2 year old doc still validate? ... one cannot expect us to keep adapting for the sake of adapting, right? As it's all volunteer work, there are more instresting typesetting related things to explore.


Hi Hans,

in my case the publisher that needs this feature right now is Heidelberg University Publishing: 
https://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/

Definitely no turnaround over 7 digits. A small but committed publisher, that is engaged in making PDF documents also accessible for blind people.

Yours, Steffen
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/14/2025 8:03 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

> in my case the publisher that needs this feature right now is Heidelberg University Publishing:
> https://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/
> 
> Definitely no turnaround over 7 digits. A small but committed publisher, that is engaged in making PDF documents also accessible for blind people.

- adding some Alt whatever to a pdf has been possible for ages but only 
when it's required by law they do it

- adding some simple label is not helping the blind, while making a 
dedicated document (or providing the sources) with more extensive 
description of what this image is showing makes more sense

- add audio resources to documents clearly explaining matters that 
require something that a blind person needs seems better to me (also 
something that can be done for ages)

so ... if publishers really cared about that they'd embraced tex as tool 
for *multiple* output (not only blind, maybe also huge fonts etc for bad 
eyesight or alternative coloring for color blind or ...)

not even now, with accessibility on the agenda, those demands show up 
... so forgive if i don't take publishers demands too serious on this

anyway, we'll see what direction pablos tests show us, and i'll adapt to 
that

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 2/14/25 19:18, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 2/14/2025 6:05 PM, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context wrote:
>> […]
>> With "Alt", these viewers seem to find no "cow" (using the previous
>> sample from Steffen): PDF.js, poppler (Evince/Okular), xpdf, mupdf-gl
>> (and SumatraPDF).
>>
>> With "ActualText", the compilant viewers are mupdf-gl (plus SumatraPDF),
>> poppler (Evince/Okular), xpdf. PDF.js has only an open issue
>> (https://github.com/mozilla/pdf.js/issues/12237).
>
> So should one set both?

Not for the same element, my fault.

> Does it hurt? I suppose one is used for speach
> and another for copy-paste and that viewers mix and match what they like
> here.

Alt is for speech and to replace non-textual elements. ActualText is
intended only for textual elements (text itself or images that contain
text).

> Could have the same values (when we set label)
>
> You can try to uncoment in lpdf-tag:
>
>               -- Alt        = alternate,
>
>           -- Alt  = pdfunicode(label ~= "" and label or "image"),
>
> irr we commented because some validator didn't like it but maybe we
> should not care about that too much. (Could also be under
> \enableexperiment control).

I will try to test this with the validators that come from the Arlington
PDF model.

BTW, ActualText doesn’t work in Edge (and I guess, Chrome [I don’t have
access to a computer with it installed]).

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 2/14/25 20:03, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> […]
> Definitely no turnaround over 7 digits. A small but committed
> publisher, that is engaged in making PDF documents also accessible
> for blind people.
Hi Steffen,

could you send them this attachment
(https://mailman.ntg.nl/archives/list/ntg-context@ntg.nl/message/DS5R3HFLWRFWASMMZIQT7RNTLHXEQU5K/attachment/2/cow-hoh.pdf)
so that they could test whether it works for them?

BTW, if this failed, it would be great to have program, version number
and OS (to be able to test it further).

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 15.02.2025 um 14:16 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
> 
> On 2/14/25 20:03, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> […]
>> Definitely no turnaround over 7 digits. A small but committed
>> publisher, that is engaged in making PDF documents also accessible
>> for blind people.
> Hi Steffen,
> 
> could you send them this attachment
> (https://mailman.ntg.nl/archives/list/ntg-context@ntg.nl/message/DS5R3HFLWRFWASMMZIQT7RNTLHXEQU5K/attachment/2/cow-hoh.pdf)
> so that they could test whether it works for them?
> 
> BTW, if this failed, it would be great to have program, version number
> and OS (to be able to test it further).
> 
> Many thanks for your help,
> 
> Pablo


Hi Pablo,

I already did this some days ago. Of course not the same PDF but probably from a very similar context code.
It didn't work.

Do I understand you correctly that it world be interesting to know program, version number and OS of the program with which they tested our PDF, unsuccessfully?

Regards, Steffen

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 14.02.2025 um 20:43 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
> 
> On 2/14/2025 8:03 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> 
>> in my case the publisher that needs this feature right now is Heidelberg University Publishing:
>> https://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/
>> Definitely no turnaround over 7 digits. A small but committed publisher, that is engaged in making PDF documents also accessible for blind people.
> 
> - adding some Alt whatever to a pdf has been possible for ages but only when it's required by law they do it
> 
> - adding some simple label is not helping the blind, while making a dedicated document (or providing the sources) with more extensive description of what this image is showing makes more sense
> 
> - add audio resources to documents clearly explaining matters that require something that a blind person needs seems better to me (also something that can be done for ages)
> 
> so ... if publishers really cared about that they'd embraced tex as tool for *multiple* output (not only blind, maybe also huge fonts etc for bad eyesight or alternative coloring for color blind or ...)
> 
> not even now, with accessibility on the agenda, those demands show up ... so forgive if i don't take publishers demands too serious on this
> 
> anyway, we'll see what direction pablos tests show us, and i'll adapt to that
> 
> Hans


I agree completely.

Steffen
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 2/15/25 19:29, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> [...]
> Do I understand you correctly that it would be interesting to know
> program, version number and OS of the program with which they tested
> our PDF, unsuccessfully?

Hi Steffen,

on a second thought, only the program would be required.

It would be the easiest way to replicate their tests. I mean, if they
use a publicly-available validator.

Otherwise, it will be really hard to test accessibility for PDF
documents by ourselves.

But for now, I have tested this with the VeraPDF validator and I have
found another issue.

If you don’t mind, I will open a new thread.

Best,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Thomas Meyer]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1663 bytes --]

\setupbackend[
format={pdf/ua-1},
profile={default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
]

\setuptagging
   [state=start]

\enabledirectives
   [backend.usetags=mkiv]

   \starttext
   a
   \stoptext

is green with VeraPDF!

format={pdf/ua-2} is not defined I think, see: 
https://source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/base/mkiv/lpdf-fmt.lua

Greetings
Thomas

Am 16.02.25 um 10:03 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:
> On 2/15/25 19:29, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> [...]
>> Do I understand you correctly that it would be interesting to know
>> program, version number and OS of the program with which they tested
>> our PDF, unsuccessfully?
> Hi Steffen,
>
> on a second thought, only the program would be required.
>
> It would be the easiest way to replicate their tests. I mean, if they
> use a publicly-available validator.
>
> Otherwise, it will be really hard to test accessibility for PDF
> documents by ourselves.
>
> But for now, I have tested this with the VeraPDF validator and I have
> found another issue.
>
> If you don’t mind, I will open a new thread.
>
> Best,
>
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist :ntg-context@ntg.nl /https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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> archive  :https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki     :https://wiki.contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 3037 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 511 bytes --]

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 2/16/25 11:09, Thomas Meyer wrote:
> \setupbackend[
> format={pdf/ua-1},
> profile={default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
> ]
>
> \setuptagging
>   [state=start]
>
> \enabledirectives
>   [backend.usetags=mkiv]
>
>   \starttext
>   a
>   \stoptext
>
> is green with VeraPDF!

Many thanks for your testing, Thomas.

> format={pdf/ua-2} is not defined I think, see: https://
> source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/base/mkiv/lpdf-fmt.lua

It’s defined for MkXL (aka LMTX). See lpdf-fmt.lua from your
distribution, since the ConTeXt Garden contains a version which is more
than a year old).

BTW, the profile mixture has a separate thread.

Best,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Thomas Meyer]

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Hi Pablo,

you are correct: i found lpdf-fmt.lmt.

But with format={pdf/ua-2} VeraPDF is still red.

Greetings


Am 16.02.25 um 11:36 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:
> On 2/16/25 11:09, Thomas Meyer wrote:
>> \setupbackend[
>> format={pdf/ua-1},
>> profile={default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>> ]
>>
>> \setuptagging
>>    [state=start]
>>
>> \enabledirectives
>>    [backend.usetags=mkiv]
>>
>>    \starttext
>>    a
>>    \stoptext
>>
>> is green with VeraPDF!
> Many thanks for your testing, Thomas.
>
>> format={pdf/ua-2} is not defined I think, see: https://
>> source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/base/mkiv/lpdf-fmt.lua
> It’s defined for MkXL (aka LMTX). See lpdf-fmt.lua from your
> distribution, since the ConTeXt Garden contains a version which is more
> than a year old).
>
> BTW, the profile mixture has a separate thread.
>
> Best,
>
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist :ntg-context@ntg.nl /https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 2/16/25 11:57, Thomas Meyer wrote:
> Hi Pablo,
>
> you are correct: i found lpdf-fmt.lmt.
>
> But with format={pdf/ua-2} VeraPDF is still red.

Yes, the main problem I found was the reason I started a new thread
(https://mailman.ntg.nl/archives/list/ntg-context@ntg.nl/message/4IIHP4EGYVY3K5OTGWAWXKBNGTP6XYV5/).

Best,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Thomas Meyer]

Oh, sorry!

Am 16.02.25 um 12:02 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:
> Yes, the main problem I found was the reason I started a new thread
> (https://mailman.ntg.nl/archives/list/ntg-context@ntg.nl/message/4IIHP4EGYVY3K5OTGWAWXKBNGTP6XYV5/).
>
> Best,
>
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi Pablo,

they tested the test file: they could not see alt-text:
Acrobat Pro 24.005 / Windows (x86)

Steffen


> Am 16.02.2025 um 10:03 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
> 
> On 2/15/25 19:29, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> [...]
>> Do I understand you correctly that it would be interesting to know
>> program, version number and OS of the program with which they tested
>> our PDF, unsuccessfully?
> 
> Hi Steffen,
> 
> on a second thought, only the program would be required.
> 
> It would be the easiest way to replicate their tests. I mean, if they
> use a publicly-available validator.
> 
> Otherwise, it will be really hard to test accessibility for PDF
> documents by ourselves.
> 
> But for now, I have tested this with the VeraPDF validator and I have
> found another issue.
> 
> If you don’t mind, I will open a new thread.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 2/18/25 13:02, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> Hi Pablo,
>
> they tested the test file: they could not see alt-text:
> Acrobat Pro 24.005 / Windows (x86).

Sorry, Steffen, I need to investigate this further.

Although I must confess that if Acrobat Pro (not Reader) is the only way
to test this, I don’t have access to it.

In any case, I’m afraid testing will take time, because I have to
dedicate myself to other tasks.

Best,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 18.02.2025 um 17:19 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
> 
> On 2/18/25 13:02, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> Hi Pablo,
>> 
>> they tested the test file: they could not see alt-text:
>> Acrobat Pro 24.005 / Windows (x86).
> 
> Sorry, Steffen, I need to investigate this further.
> 
> Although I must confess that if Acrobat Pro (not Reader) is the only way
> to test this, I don’t have access to it.
> 
> In any case, I’m afraid testing will take time, because I have to
> dedicate myself to other tasks.


Hi Pablo,

I’d be happy if I could support your investigations.
At least I will communicate and forward any test file to those who have Acrobat Pro.

Yours, Steffen
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

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Pablo,

the last Acrobat Pro without subscription is version from 2020.
On a macOS I tested your test file with this version and the result was surprising, see screenshots via wetransfer:
https://we.tl/t-eW1zqTncZw <https://we.tl/t-eW1zqTncZw>

Steffen



> Am 19.02.2025 um 07:22 schrieb Steffen Wolfrum <context@st.estfiles.de <mailto:context@st.estfiles.de>>:
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 18.02.2025 um 17:19 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>>:
>> 
>> On 2/18/25 13:02, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Hi Pablo,
>>> 
>>> they tested the test file: they could not see alt-text:
>>> Acrobat Pro 24.005 / Windows (x86).
>> 
>> Sorry, Steffen, I need to investigate this further.
>> 
>> Although I must confess that if Acrobat Pro (not Reader) is the only way
>> to test this, I don’t have access to it.
>> 
>> In any case, I’m afraid testing will take time, because I have to
>> dedicate myself to other tasks.



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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

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On 2/21/25 12:32, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> Pablo,
>
> the last Acrobat Pro without subscription is version from 2020.
> On a macOS I tested your test file with this version and the result was
> surprising, see screenshots via wetransfer:
> https://we.tl/t-eW1zqTncZw.

Hi Steffen,

the relevant info is missing in the frame I added to your first screenshot.

Just as a comment, pngquant does a great job reducing PNG screenshots
(most of the time).

Starting a new thread about the non-standard tag.

Many thanks for your patience,

Pablo

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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

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> Am 25.02.2025 um 17:01 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>>:
> 
> On 2/21/25 12:32, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> Pablo,
>> 
>> the last Acrobat Pro without subscription is version from 2020.
>> On a macOS I tested your test file with this version and the result was
>> surprising, see screenshots via wetransfer:
>> https://we.tl/t-eW1zqTncZw <https://we.tl/t-eW1zqTncZw>.
> 
> Hi Steffen,
> 
> the relevant info is missing in the frame I added to your first screenshot.
> 
> Just as a comment, pngquant does a great job reducing PNG screenshots
> (most of the time).
> 
> Starting a new thread about the non-standard tag.



Hi Pablo,

sorry for missing parts. Here attached you may find these info.
Thanks for mentioning pngquant, works great (as we can see here)!

(I hope this is still the right thread?)

Yours, Steffen


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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Steffen Wolfrum]

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> Am 14.02.2025 um 20:43 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl <mailto:j.hagen@xs4all.nl>>:
> 
> On 2/14/2025 8:03 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> 
>> in my case the publisher that needs this feature right now is Heidelberg University Publishing:
>> https://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/ <https://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/>
>> Definitely no turnaround over 7 digits. A small but committed publisher, that is engaged in making PDF documents also accessible for blind people.
> 
> - adding some Alt whatever to a pdf has been possible for ages but only when it's required by law they do it
> 
> - adding some simple label is not helping the blind, while making a dedicated document (or providing the sources) with more extensive description of what this image is showing makes more sense
> 
> - add audio resources to documents clearly explaining matters that require something that a blind person needs seems better to me (also something that can be done for ages)
> 
> so ... if publishers really cared about that they'd embraced tex as tool for *multiple* output (not only blind, maybe also huge fonts etc for bad eyesight or alternative coloring for color blind or ...)
> 
> not even now, with accessibility on the agenda, those demands show up ... so forgive if i don't take publishers demands too serious on this


Just today I received an e-mail, telling me that all publications that were typeset with ConTeXt since 2023 need to be enhanced with alt_text at images, otherwise their PDFs wont be published online. 

Here is the law (in german) that is the background for this announcement: https://bfsg-gesetz.de/ <https://bfsg-gesetz.de/>

Yours, Steffen


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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 4/29/25 13:12, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> [...] 
> Just today I received an e-mail, telling me that all publications that
> were typeset with ConTeXt since 2023 need to be enhanced with alt_text
> at images, otherwise their PDFs wont be published online. 
> 
> Here is the law (in german) that is the background for this
> announcement: https://bfsg-gesetz.de/ <https://bfsg-gesetz.de/>

Hi Steffen,

the following should work with current latest (from yesterday,
LuaMetaTeX 2.11.07 20250427 + ConTeXt LMTX 2025.04.28 14:29):

  \enabledirectives [backend.usetags=testing]
  \setuptagging[state=start]
  \setupstructure[state=start]
  \setupbackend
    [format=PDF/A-3a]
  \setupbackend[format=pdf/ua-1]
  \setupexternalfigures[location=default]
  \starttext
  \externalfigure[hacker][label={this is an image}]

  \startparagraph
    a
  \stopparagraph
  \stoptext

If you have an issue with this, please start a new thread.

Otherwise, please start another thread explaing which your issue is.

Just in case it helps
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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

It's about end of the year, so I updated lmtx.

The most significant "change" is that columnsets are in the processed of 
being replaced which involves a "change in approach". As a consequence, 
when you use that mechanism - we're not sure how many actually do - and 
want the old code to kick in you need to load the "oldcolumnsets" module.

Mikael S and I have been working on the new implementation but are not 
finished. We plan to have a reasonable stable version around may 2025 
and a release at the ctx 2025 meeting when we also hope to have a new 
(additional) manual ready. We also test on real (complex) documents 
which triggers new challenges and solutions.

The current code works ok but can best not be used for production (and 
some new features are undocumented anyway). Teaser: deep down the 
approach is quite different from the previous one but more reliable and 
it produced better quality output. Columnsets are also the mechanism 
that parallel document(stream)s will use.

Like upgraded math and (multipass) paragraph optimization the mechanisms 
used are also a quite fundamental extensions that will be documented 
independently and likely used elsewhere.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

I uploaded a new version. Apart from some things discussed here already 
the main update is in par passes (a bit more control, feedback, tracing 
etc) which will be explained over time (we're writing a wrapup).

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi,

end of the month update:

- we are still working on the math manual so updates there (we want the 
manual to stable for the upcoming meeting)

- we also work on the export (some changes and additions there but we 
will conver that plus some new tools later when we're done, read: are 
satisfied with what browsers can handle sort of well)

- wolfgang updated the setups (command definitions) so plenty of 
improvements and completion in there (he also did some quality assurance)

- all kind of small thingies (some to be introduced at the upcoming 
meeting were as usual we also discuss development and priorities)

- there are some new \setupalign options, like 'notwins', 'notoddlers' 
and 'noorphans' in case someone wants to be surprised

as usual when we run into unforseen issues we'll fix it,

Hans

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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

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Hi,

There is a new lmtx upload.

-- The svg inclusion via metapost has been upgraded and cleanup a bit, 
using some more recent metapost features. There are some new (not yet 
all documented metapost) features.

-- In the process, support for LCH colors has been added, which is 
documented in the (eg luametafun manual).

-- The math manual is not yet there because we were distracted by 
improving support for envelopes (penbased outlines) in metafun. This is 
still work in progress, some is present and discussed in the manual, and 
we'll come back to that sometime next month. Given the next item, we 
also might need to change some in the manual (different focus).

-- Because we have users who have to conform to the European 
Accessibility Act we have been wondering how to deal with that and at 
Mikaels place there are two demands: distinctive colors and tagging and 
especially math (somehow validators love to check that). Colors never 
were an issue as they can be controlled, and tagging math neither, 
especially because nothing was/is done with it anyway, but ... we are 
happy that we found a reasonable (more modern and future proof) way out.

As explained / shown in the attached document we're basically forced to 
choose a different approach with math (a pity as we worked hard to get 
the rendering right but the attached file works fine in the viewers that 
we tested).

-- We like to hear from users what other demands wrt accessibility there 
are. We're not interested in the (commercial) big money aspects (of pdf 
and tagging) nor in the politics behind it (changes over time). What are 
the demands, so that we can see how to make it work or just work around 
it (as it's kind of boring to cook uyp complex features	, esp compared 
to playing with metapost).

-- Furthermore .. the usual bits and pieces as discussed on the list and 
otherwise.

-- If you have troubles (crash) you need to wipe the cache due to a 
change in lua bytecode storage (no easy way to catch it).

Hans & Mikael

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[-- Attachment #2: math-riddance.pdf --]
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[-- Attachment #3: math-riddance.tex --]
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% language=us

% todo: no comma

\usemodule[scite]
\usemodule[article-basic]
\usemodule[abbreviations-logos]
\usemodule[math-goodriddance]

\setuplayout[tight]

\starttext

\subject{Good riddance}

We're done with math. After years of active development, Mikael and Hans have
decided to quit working on math, and concentrate on \METAPOST\ and handing over
to the next generation instead. We lost our user to the way more popular
alternative (frozen in stone standards). Also, we had it with suboptimal math
fonts, Unicode math not getting improved, MathML constantly being changed,
browsers dealing with math differently every few years, math archives getting
polluted with tons of useless tagged math.

There are other motivations, like the European union imposing strict rules with
respect to accessibility in educational content management systems, and Dutch
schools trying to get rid of math in favor of simple calculus, if at all. This is
why the next iteration of the engine will no longer have a math engine:
MathLessTeX. Of course, in the beginning \MLTX\ will be compatible with \LMTX,
because we owe that to the users and we need to prototype the new engine anyway.

In order to get an idea of how we will get rid of the disturbing formulas, you
can load the module:

\starttyping
\usemodule[math-goodriddance]
\stoptyping

Until becoming the default setting, the command \typ {\goodriddancemath} will
bring you into \MLTX\ mode while \typ {\badriddancemath} will bring you back to
the obsolete \LMTX\ mode. Like:

\startbuffer
\usemodule[math-goodriddance] \goodriddancemath

Who wants to solve the equation \m {x + 1 = 4} or deal with the function \m {x \mapsto
\root [3] {x}}, when we have AI around the corner to help us out with simple and silly
things like the Pythagorean theorem: \m {a^2 + b^2 = c^2}, or even with more advanced
math like geometric series: \m {\sum_{k = 0}^{+\infty} x^k = 1/(1 - x)}?

We will not support complicated nonsense stuff like:

\startplaceformula
\startformula
    F__{1}____{2}(a,b;b;z) = (1 - z)^{-a}
\stopformula
\stopplaceformula

When developing this Hans' Swedish improved a lot. {\language[sv] Den lilla del av
befolkningen som handlar på IKEA och tittar på fåniga krimserier förstår kanske detta:
\im {\sqrt {x + 1} = \sin(4 + y)}!}
\stopbuffer

\typebuffer[option=TEX]

Which gives us the beautifully typeset:

\startcolor[darkblue] \getbuffer \stopcolor

We hope that the highly respected Swedish Academy will consider our prose in
their upcoming evaluations. Our first submission to the leading \TEX\ journal was
however rejected. We are currently on a major revision in order to satisfy the
hopefully less critical \NTG\ Maps Editors. It is therefore our sincere hope that
you will be able to read more on this topic in the near future. Currently only
English and Swedish are supported. But our next research project, lead by two
young promising linguists, will hopefully result in support for more languages.
They will present preliminary results at the prestigious international BachoTeX
conference in May 2024.

\stoptext

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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

as we're around texlive code freeze time we're also in upload mode

- i uploaded a new lmtx
- i also added linux and windows 32 bin (as it seems to have users)

- we're now using lua 5.5 which has one restriction (was already 
announced a while ago):

for i=1,10 in t do
     ....
     i = 2 * i
     ....
end

should now be:

for i=1,10 in t do
     ....
     local i = 2 * i
     ....
end

as one cannot change the (local constant) i which actually is not that 
different from what metapost does. The good news is that voilating this 
is reported when a lua file is loaded so one can't get it unexspectedly.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

I uploaded a new lmts:

- important fix for empty page (pdf, recently introduced)
- win32 installer fix
- bsd installer fix

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

I uploaded a new version (there is some work in progress but it probably 
doesn't affect anyone).

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

I uploaded a new lmtx. There are some new features that wil be revealed 
in the future (likely after the meeting) but here is one:

\starttext

     \defineoverlay
       [test]
       [\color
          [blue]
          {TEST
           \inframed
             [foregroundcolor=red]
             {xxx}
           TEST}]

     \framed
       [background=test,
        foregroundstyle=\switchtobodyfont[small]]
       {test}

\stoptext

 From now on many commands accept (properly) nested [] inside commands 
that use [] as fences (like the setup commands) where it makes sense. It 
is up to the user to decide to use {} (as before) or not but it is less 
error prone.

It is now also possible to nest setups as in

\starttext

\startsetups one
     \startsetups [three]
         HERE
     \stopsetups
\stopsetups

\startsetups two
     \startsetups [three]
         THERE
     \stopsetups
\stopsetups

\setups[one] \setups[three]

\setups[two] \setups[three]

\stoptext

As part of the ongoing improvements on math rendering we added some 
classic lm/cm kerns (between upperacse and periods / commas) in the 
goodie files.

Some lowlevel manuals have been extended, explaining experimental 'named 
cross macro nesting parameter referencing' and 'constrained cq. retained 
assignments', but that is only relevant for those interested in 
overcoming some limitations in the traditional engines.

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi,

I uploaded a new lmtx. Apart from the modules installer (that Hraban has 
to check) and subtle improvements in math (we're now in tweaking 
penalties mode) there are a few changes:

- The endstrut in framed got lost but is back again; there is now alao a 
location=inline option.

- Single character math as in "text $x$ text" will from now on behave 
kind of like "text~x$ text" but that ~ always felt kind of weird anyway. 
Tests on large documents with plenty math and single char cases shows 
that it works quite ok and in most cases the paragraph will have the 
same number of lines (single char moves have little impact).

- The \lastlinefit (etec) feature is now controlled by the "fit" option 
in \setupalign etc; i'm still pondering how to control the orphan 
penalty feature that has been around for a while now but never really 
configured) and if we should have a decent default for that (like 
\orphanpenalties 2 150 100 ).

- Math formula number placement (as well as alignment sinside narrower) 
has been made a bit more robust and we added some placement options that 
will be discussed in the (by now 1739 page thick) upcoming math manual.
You really don't want to know how many combinations we had to check.

In an upcoming release there might also be some new text related 
tweaking features as side effect of the math tweaks which leads to some 
experiments with the par builder (so again we got sidetracked).

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: [NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/6/2023 3:33 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
> Am 06.05.23 um 09:46 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
>> On 5/5/2023 11:21 PM, Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context wrote:
>>
>>> Would it make sense to add a similar script to install context 
>>> modules from modules.contextgarden.net?
>> I can look into that but then I need to slightly adapt it with a 
>> command line argument (no big deal, i just need rain outside and/or 
>> new cd's).
>>
>> Not sure yet how to name the script.
> 
> Why not install-module(s), or just install?
> 
> mtxrun --script install --modules=filter,simpleslides
> 
> mtxrun --script install-modules --list=filter,simpleslides
i actually decided on the second one but not finished yet

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: [NTG-context] upload

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 06.05.23 um 09:46 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
> On 5/5/2023 11:21 PM, Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context wrote:
> 
>> Would it make sense to add a similar script to install context modules 
>> from modules.contextgarden.net?
> I can look into that but then I need to slightly adapt it with a command 
> line argument (no big deal, i just need rain outside and/or new cd's).
> 
> Not sure yet how to name the script.

Why not install-module(s), or just install?

mtxrun --script install --modules=filter,simpleslides

mtxrun --script install-modules --list=filter,simpleslides

?

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/5/2023 11:21 PM, Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context wrote:

> Would it make sense to add a similar script to install context modules from modules.contextgarden.net?
I can look into that but then I need to slightly adapt it with a command 
line argument (no big deal, i just need rain outside and/or new cd's).

Not sure yet how to name the script.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: [NTG-context] upload

[Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context]

On Fri, 5 May 2023, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I uploaded a version that provides
> 
>   mtxrun --script install-tikz
> 
> that when run in the tex root (.../tex) will fetch some tikz stuff from ctan
> and puts is in texmf-modules. After installing it wipes the files that make no
> sense (or can interfere or might be harmful) but I didn't check that
> extensively. Finally it remakes the file dastabase. I don't know if more needs
> to be installed. It assumes curl to be present (as library or binary). It's a
> rather stupid script but (I guess) good enough for what it is supposed to do.

Works fine at my end. I also adapted the arch AUR package to use the install-tikz option (earlier I was installing these packages by wget as part of the installation process). 

> I can add more (like other modules) in which case it will be renamed.

Would it make sense to add a similar script to install context modules from modules.contextgarden.net? 

Thanks,
Aditya
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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi,

I uploaded a version that provides

   mtxrun --script install-tikz

that when run in the tex root (.../tex) will fetch some tikz stuff from 
ctan and puts is in texmf-modules. After installing it wipes the files 
that make no sense (or can interfere or might be harmful) but I didn't 
check that extensively. Finally it remakes the file dastabase. I don't 
know if more needs to be installed. It assumes curl to be present (as 
library or binary). It's a rather stupid script but (I guess) good 
enough for what it is supposed to do.

I can add more (like other modules) in which case it will be renamed.

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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[NTG-context] upload

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi,

I uploaded the last of series 2.10.07 as prelude for bachotex. That one 
also can do this:

\newfloat \MyFloat
\MyFloat \pfsin \floatexpr 1.25 * \pfpi \relax
\the\MyFloat

\the \pfsin \floatexpr 1.25 * \pfpi \relax

The syntax is like \numexpr and \dimexpr but the \pfsin (and other 
functions) are (as usual with these things) not real primitives but 
(\untraced) luacalls.

Of course it is all still somewhat experimental but likely to stay ...

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [NTG-context] upload

[Mikael Sundqvist via ntg-context]

Hi,

On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 5:40 PM Alexandre Christe via ntg-context
<ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
> Sorry, \setupmathematics[ucgreek=normal] does the job. Nothing to do with the last upload.

Yes, but I think the default has been normal (upright), and when I
test with a minimal document here, it is still upright.

/Mikael
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Re: [NTG-context] upload

[Alexandre Christe via ntg-context]

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Sorry, \setupmathematics[ucgreek=normal] does the job. Nothing to do with the last upload.
Le 14 avr. 2023 à 17:16 +0200, Alexandre Christe <aleks.christe@gmail.com>, a écrit :
> Dear Hans,
>
> In the latest upload, I see that uppercase greek letters in the math environment are displayed in italic. Is there a way to force them to appear as upright letters instead?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Alex
> Le 11 avr. 2023 à 23:08 +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>, a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I just uploaded an update, the areas that were touched:
> >
> > - math (font) improvements (with mikael, roadmap stuff, fixes, compact
> > mode testing)
> > - text (font) improvements (with mikael, side track of math)
> > - experimental stuff wrt project structure (with alan, complex huge
> > files; prelude to possible partial overhaul)
> > - some language details like labels (with tomas & students, ongoing)
> > - little thingies that probably no one will notice unless it's bugged
> >
> > Hans
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> > tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> > archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> > wiki : https://contextgarden.net
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________

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Re: [NTG-context] upload

[Alexandre Christe via ntg-context]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1612 bytes --]

Dear Hans,

In the latest upload, I see that uppercase greek letters in the math environment are displayed in italic. Is there a way to force them to appear as upright letters instead?

Thanks in advance,
Alex
Le 11 avr. 2023 à 23:08 +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>, a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I just uploaded an update, the areas that were touched:
>
> - math (font) improvements (with mikael, roadmap stuff, fixes, compact
> mode testing)
> - text (font) improvements (with mikael, side track of math)
> - experimental stuff wrt project structure (with alan, complex huge
> files; prelude to possible partial overhaul)
> - some language details like labels (with tomas & students, ongoing)
> - little thingies that probably no one will notice unless it's bugged
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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