* characterspacing not always working in LMTX
@ 2020-01-14 21:58 Joseph
2020-01-14 22:24 ` Wolfgang Schuster
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Joseph @ 2020-01-14 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-14 21:58 characterspacing not always working in LMTX Joseph @ 2020-01-14 22:24 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2020-01-14 22:25 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-15 9:16 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2020-01-14 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Joseph [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 446 bytes --] Joseph schrieb am 14.01.2020 um 22:58: > > Hello, > > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is > not applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some > parts of the text. Unfortunately so far I cannot provide a MWE so I am > wondering if there is a way to trace this to hopefully figure out what > the problem is. > You can enable tracing with \enabletrackers[typesetters.spacing] Wolfgang [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1495 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-14 21:58 characterspacing not always working in LMTX Joseph 2020-01-14 22:24 ` Wolfgang Schuster @ 2020-01-14 22:25 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-15 9:15 ` Hans Hagen 2020-01-15 9:16 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-14 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1635 bytes --] Hello, dear list ! Joseph : > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is not > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some parts of Character-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV anyway : the “thin” spaces are much too wide. I will write more about it when I have more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time being, I don’t use its automatic spacing for French punctuation, but real Unicode spaces such as U+202F (non breakable thin space, about 0.125 em, depending on the font). By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in Europe for centuries — at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness ? :-) Greetings, Thomas Savary 1 le Grand-Plessis F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne Tél. 06 22 82 61 34 https://correctionpro.fr/ https://compo85.fr/ mardi 14 janvier 2020, à 22:58:57 CET, Joseph a écrit : > Hello, > > > > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is not > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some parts of > the text. Unfortunately so far I cannot provide a MWE so I am wondering if > there is a way to trace this to hopefully figure out what the problem is. > > Many thanks > > > > Regards > > > > Joseph [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 7769 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-14 22:25 ` Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-15 9:15 ` Hans Hagen 2020-01-15 10:29 ` Taco Hoekwater 2020-01-15 14:59 ` Thomas Savary 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2020-01-15 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Thomas Savary On 1/14/2020 11:25 PM, Thomas Savary wrote: > Hello, dear list ! > > Joseph : > > > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) > is not > > > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some > parts of > > Character-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV > anyway : the “thin” spaces are much too wide. I will write more about it > when I have more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time > being, I don’t use its automatic spacing for French punctuation, but > real Unicode spaces such as U+202F (non breakable thin space, about > 0.125 em, depending on the font). keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ... however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per user anyway, it's configureable > By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, > historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in > Europe for centuries — at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy > (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes > in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder > why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness ? :-) never seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-15 9:15 ` Hans Hagen @ 2020-01-15 10:29 ` Taco Hoekwater 2020-01-15 12:02 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2020-01-15 14:59 ` Thomas Savary 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2020-01-15 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users > On 15 Jan 2020, at 10:15, Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote: > >> By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in Europe for centuries — at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness ? :-) > never seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob Dutch typesetting had some rules for thin spaces in a transition period from full spaces (early) to no spaces (modern). Much of this change happened in the (late) 19th century, so I guess it had more to do with linotype/monotype than with modern digitisation. Best wishes, Taco ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-15 10:29 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2020-01-15 12:02 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2020-01-15 15:10 ` Thomas Savary 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2020-01-15 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:29:35AM +0100, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > Dutch typesetting had some rules for thin spaces in a transition period from full spaces (early) to no spaces (modern). > > Much of this change happened in the (late) 19th century, so I guess it had more to do with linotype/monotype than with modern digitisation. I think it happened at about the same time for English. Before that it was pretty universal. See https://archive.org/details/worksbenjaminfr06spargoog/page/n12 for just one example. (The thin space in that example is really thin! -- but it’s definitely there) Best, Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-15 12:02 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2020-01-15 15:10 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-15 15:16 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-15 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2105 bytes --] Arthur : > I think it happened at about the same time for English. Before that > it was pretty universal. See > https://archive.org/details/worksbenjaminfr06spargoog/page/n12 for just one > example. > > (The thin space in that example is really thin! -- but it’s definitely > there) Exactly. And this is precisely the thin space still required in French publications. The main disagreement among French typographs (about twenty years ago, at least) was about the fixed vs relative width of this thin space : put in TeX’s terms, should it be proportional to the glue or to the font ? I think I’d better write an article about this, with quotes and visual examples. Greetings Thomas Savary 1 le Grand-Plessis F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne Tél. 06 22 82 61 34 https://compo85.fr/ mercredi 15 janvier 2020, à 13:02:00 CET, Arthur Reutenauer a écrit : > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:29:35AM +0100, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > > Dutch typesetting had some rules for thin spaces in a transition period > > from full spaces (early) to no spaces (modern). > > > > Much of this change happened in the (late) 19th century, so I guess it had > > more to do with linotype/monotype than with modern digitisation. > I think it happened at about the same time for English. Before that > it was pretty universal. See > https://archive.org/details/worksbenjaminfr06spargoog/page/n12 for just one > example. > > (The thin space in that example is really thin! -- but it’s definitely > there) > > Best, > > Arthur > ____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an > entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : > http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net > archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 9982 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-15 15:10 ` Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-15 15:16 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2020-01-17 8:41 ` Thomas Savary 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2020-01-15 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users > Am 2020-01-15 um 16:10 schrieb Thomas Savary <compo85@correctionpro.fr>: > > Exactly. And this is precisely the thin space still required in French publications. The main disagreement among French typographs (about twenty years ago, at least) was about the fixed vs relative width of this thin space : put in TeX’s terms, should it be proportional to the glue or to the font ? > > I think I’d better write an article about this, with quotes and visual examples. Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is welcome! Best, Hraban ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-15 15:16 ` Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2020-01-17 8:41 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-17 9:01 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-17 8:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1777 bytes --] Hraban : > Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is > welcome! Thank you for this offer. As I don’t like half-measures, I really want to do it well, so I’m going to need a lot of time to collect historical as well as recent examples, quotations, etc. and to write this article. Unfortunately, I am pretty busy right now and probably won’t have time to start before March. Greetings Thomas Savary 1 le Grand-Plessis F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne Tél. 06 22 82 61 34 https://compo85.fr/ mercredi 15 janvier 2020, à 16:16:21 CET, Henning Hraban Ramm a écrit : > > Am 2020-01-15 um 16:10 schrieb Thomas Savary <compo85@correctionpro.fr>: > > > > Exactly. And this is precisely the thin space still required in French > > publications. The main disagreement among French typographs (about twenty > > years ago, at least) was about the fixed vs relative width of this thin > > space : put in TeX’s terms, should it be proportional to the glue or to > > the font ? > > > > I think I’d better write an article about this, with quotes and visual > > examples. > Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is > welcome! > > Best, Hraban > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an > entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : > http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net > archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________________________ > _______ [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 8393 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-17 8:41 ` Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-17 9:01 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2020-01-17 9:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users > Am 2020-01-17 um 09:41 schrieb Thomas Savary <compo85@correctionpro.fr>: > > Hraban : > > Since the current CG Journal is still "in progress", another article is > > welcome! > > Thank you for this offer. As I don’t like half-measures, I really want to do it well, so I’m going to need a lot of time to collect historical as well as recent examples, quotations, etc. and to write this article. Unfortunately, I am pretty busy right now and probably won’t have time to start before March. Then maybe prepare a talk for the next context meeting? Looking at my/our progress with the journal and my calendar I guess it would be still in time if you deliver somewhen end of March. (Mid March is Leipzig book fair, we’ll have a booth and I need to finish two books and our catalogue before; after the fair I must send out the new releases, and then’s DANTE meeting in Lübeck…) Greetlings, Hraban --- https://www.fiee.net http://wiki.contextgarden.net https://www.dreiviertelhaus.de GPG Key ID 1C9B22FD ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-15 9:15 ` Hans Hagen 2020-01-15 10:29 ` Taco Hoekwater @ 2020-01-15 14:59 ` Thomas Savary 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-15 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3254 bytes --] Hans : > never seen them [thin spaces] in dutch ... Example from a book published in Haarlem, 1838, “Gedichten van Nicolaas Beets” — you will even see thin spaces before commas, like in France in the 17th-18th century. https://books.google.fr/books? id=s1BUAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false > i think not so much lazyness but side > effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used > to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blobs : The first books where I saw all thin spaces disappear were printed in the USA in the 20th century, after 1910 but certainly before 1960, so before digital publishing, but I am no specialist of type history. > keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ... > however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per > user I guess that they unfortunately were no typographers. It is true that there are at least two different schools on this subject. I will explain all that when I have a bit more time. Greetings Thomas Savary 1 le Grand-Plessis F-85340 L’Île-d’Olonne Tél. 06 22 82 61 34 https://compo85.fr/ mercredi 15 janvier 2020, à 10:15:45 CET, Hans Hagen a écrit : > On 1/14/2020 11:25 PM, Thomas Savary wrote: > > Hello, dear list ! > > > > Joseph : > > > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) > > > > is not > > > > > applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some > > > > parts of > > > > Character-spacing for French punctuation marks is incorrect in MkIV > > anyway : the “thin” spaces are much too wide. I will write more about it > > when I have more time. I have just begun to lean ConTeXt. For the time > > being, I don’t use its automatic spacing for French punctuation, but > > real Unicode spaces such as U+202F (non breakable thin space, about > > 0.125 em, depending on the font). > > keep in mind that we use values that were specified by french users ... > however, as usual with language specific features, these can differ per > user > > anyway, it's configureable > > > By the way, thin spaces are not specific to French typography, > > historically speaking, since they seem to have been used everywhere in > > Europe for centuries — at least in England, Belgium, Germany and Italy > > (probably in the Netherlands too, I will check). In France and sometimes > > in England, thin spaces were often used before commas as well. I wonder > > why most countries stopped using them. Out of laziness ? :-) > > never seen them in dutch ... i think not so much lazyness but side > effect of going digital ... i bet that these spaces were also (ab)used > to justify lines (cheat a bit) i.e. manual injection of some lead blob > > Hans > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 13808 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: characterspacing not always working in LMTX 2020-01-14 21:58 characterspacing not always working in LMTX Joseph 2020-01-14 22:24 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2020-01-14 22:25 ` Thomas Savary @ 2020-01-15 9:16 ` Hans Hagen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2020-01-15 9:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Joseph On 1/14/2020 10:58 PM, Joseph wrote: > Hello, > > With LMTX (MkIV is fine) characterspacing (I use frenchpunctuation) is > not applied sometimes (ie no spacing before colon for example) in some > parts of the text. Unfortunately so far I cannot provide a MWE so I am > wondering if there is a way to trace this to hopefully figure out what > the problem is. we really need an mwe ... as it's puzzling why lmtx is different (uses the same code so must be some side effect) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-01-17 9:01 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2020-01-14 21:58 characterspacing not always working in LMTX Joseph 2020-01-14 22:24 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2020-01-14 22:25 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-15 9:15 ` Hans Hagen 2020-01-15 10:29 ` Taco Hoekwater 2020-01-15 12:02 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2020-01-15 15:10 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-15 15:16 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2020-01-17 8:41 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-17 9:01 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2020-01-15 14:59 ` Thomas Savary 2020-01-15 9:16 ` Hans Hagen
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