hyphenate nothyphenated

hyphenate nothyphenated

[Steffen Wolfrum]

When running this mwe with luatex, the command \- could be used to manually break the line, even though it is set up nothyphenated.

When running luametatex the word does not break:


\setuppapersize[A10]

\showframe

\setuphead[chapter][align={nothyphenated}]

\starttext

\chapter{abc\-def}

\stoptext


Is this intended?

Steffen
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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/29/2021 12:06 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> When running this mwe with luatex, the command \- could be used to manually break the line, even though it is set up nothyphenated.
> 
> When running luametatex the word does not break:
> 
> 
> \setuppapersize[A10]
> 
> \showframe
> 
> \setuphead[chapter][align={nothyphenated}]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \chapter{abc\-def}
> 
> \stoptext
>  
> Is this intended?
well, you ask for nothyphenated; we could define

\permanent\protected\def\-%
   {\begingroup
    \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
    \endgroup}

i will ponder this

Hans

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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Alan Braslau]

On 29/06/21 05:52, Hans Hagen wrote:
> well, you ask for nothyphenated; we could define
> 
> \permanent\protected\def\-%
>    {\begingroup
>     \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>     \endgroup}
> 
> i will ponder this

I believe that \- defines an *optional* hyphenation point.
Specifying nothyphenated should not hyphenate, even at optional points.
The author can otherwise use hyphenated and arrange to help the words 
get hyphenated at certain points.

Perhaps a new "optional" hyphenation point macro can be added that would 
have super-powers to override the align parameter. There would be no 
surprises using such a feature.

-- 
Alan
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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/30/2021 7:35 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
> On 29/06/21 05:52, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> well, you ask for nothyphenated; we could define
>>
>> \permanent\protected\def\-%
>>    {\begingroup
>>     \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>>     \endgroup}
>>
>> i will ponder this
> 
> I believe that \- defines an *optional* hyphenation point.
> Specifying nothyphenated should not hyphenate, even at optional points.
> The author can otherwise use hyphenated and arrange to help the words 
> get hyphenated at certain points.
> 
> Perhaps a new "optional" hyphenation point macro can be added that would 
> have super-powers to override the align parameter. There would be no 
> surprises using such a feature.
We can't use \= unless we drop the \= being macros (anyone using that?)

We can also use \+ which currently is just "+" because it needs some 
value (sometimes it gets a local meaning).

So here is something to ponder:

\pushoverloadmode \unprotect

     \permanent\protected\def\superexplicitdiscretionary
       {\begingroup
        \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
        \endgroup}

     \aliased\let\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop\explicitdiscretionary

     \permanent\protected\def\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes-%
       {\superexplicitdiscretionary}

     \permanent\protected\def\-%
 
{\doifelsenextcharcs-\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop}

     \protect \popoverloadmode

     \nohyphens \hsize 1mm

     test\-test \par test\--test

\stoptext



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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Alan Braslau]

On 30/06/21 12:25, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 6/30/2021 7:35 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
>> On 29/06/21 05:52, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>> well, you ask for nothyphenated; we could define
>>>
>>> \permanent\protected\def\-%
>>>    {\begingroup
>>>     \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>>>     \endgroup}
>>>
>>> i will ponder this
>>
>> I believe that \- defines an *optional* hyphenation point.
>> Specifying nothyphenated should not hyphenate, even at optional points.
>> The author can otherwise use hyphenated and arrange to help the words 
>> get hyphenated at certain points.
>>
>> Perhaps a new "optional" hyphenation point macro can be added that 
>> would have super-powers to override the align parameter. There would 
>> be no surprises using such a feature.
> We can't use \= unless we drop the \= being macros (anyone using that?)
> 
> We can also use \+ which currently is just "+" because it needs some 
> value (sometimes it gets a local meaning).
> 
> So here is something to ponder:
> 
> \pushoverloadmode \unprotect
> 
>      \permanent\protected\def\superexplicitdiscretionary
>        {\begingroup
>         \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>         \endgroup}
> 
>      \aliased\let\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop\explicitdiscretionary
> 
>      \permanent\protected\def\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes-%
>        {\superexplicitdiscretionary}
> 
>      \permanent\protected\def\-%
> 
> {\doifelsenextcharcs-\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop} 
> 
> 
>      \protect \popoverloadmode
> 
>      \nohyphens \hsize 1mm
> 
>      test\-test \par test\--test
> 
> \stoptext

\= macron accent (bar) should not be changed.

\-- is a good suggestion, like insisting, and should not get confused 
with -- (en dash).


-- 
Alan
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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Alan Braslau schrieb am 30.06.2021 um 20:40:
> On 30/06/21 12:25, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 6/30/2021 7:35 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
>>> On 29/06/21 05:52, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>> well, you ask for nothyphenated; we could define
>>>>
>>>> \permanent\protected\def\-%
>>>>    {\begingroup
>>>> \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>>>>     \endgroup}
>>>>
>>>> i will ponder this
>>>
>>> I believe that \- defines an *optional* hyphenation point.
>>> Specifying nothyphenated should not hyphenate, even at optional points.
>>> The author can otherwise use hyphenated and arrange to help the 
>>> words get hyphenated at certain points.
>>>
>>> Perhaps a new "optional" hyphenation point macro can be added that 
>>> would have super-powers to override the align parameter. There would 
>>> be no surprises using such a feature.
>> We can't use \= unless we drop the \= being macros (anyone using that?)
>>
>> We can also use \+ which currently is just "+" because it needs some 
>> value (sometimes it gets a local meaning).
>>
>> So here is something to ponder:
>>
>> \pushoverloadmode \unprotect
>>
>>      \permanent\protected\def\superexplicitdiscretionary
>>        {\begingroup
>> \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>>         \endgroup}
>>
>> \aliased\let\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop\explicitdiscretionary
>>
>>      \permanent\protected\def\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes-%
>>        {\superexplicitdiscretionary}
>>
>>      \permanent\protected\def\-%
>>
>> {\doifelsenextcharcs-\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop} 
>>
>>
>>      \protect \popoverloadmode
>>
>>      \nohyphens \hsize 1mm
>>
>>      test\-test \par test\--test
>>
>> \stoptext
>
> \= macron accent (bar) should not be changed.
>
> \-- is a good suggestion, like insisting, and should not get confused 
> with -- (en dash).

Is there some problem to make it just another option.

\enabledirectives[hyphenators.discretionary=hyphenated|nothyphenated]

Wolfgang

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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/30/2021 8:50 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Alan Braslau schrieb am 30.06.2021 um 20:40:
>> On 30/06/21 12:25, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>> On 6/30/2021 7:35 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
>>>> On 29/06/21 05:52, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>>> well, you ask for nothyphenated; we could define
>>>>>
>>>>> \permanent\protected\def\-%
>>>>>    {\begingroup
>>>>> \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>>>>>     \endgroup}
>>>>>
>>>>> i will ponder this
>>>>
>>>> I believe that \- defines an *optional* hyphenation point.
>>>> Specifying nothyphenated should not hyphenate, even at optional points.
>>>> The author can otherwise use hyphenated and arrange to help the 
>>>> words get hyphenated at certain points.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps a new "optional" hyphenation point macro can be added that 
>>>> would have super-powers to override the align parameter. There would 
>>>> be no surprises using such a feature.
>>> We can't use \= unless we drop the \= being macros (anyone using that?)
>>>
>>> We can also use \+ which currently is just "+" because it needs some 
>>> value (sometimes it gets a local meaning).
>>>
>>> So here is something to ponder:
>>>
>>> \pushoverloadmode \unprotect
>>>
>>>      \permanent\protected\def\superexplicitdiscretionary
>>>        {\begingroup
>>> \hyphenationmode\explicithyphenationmodecode\explicitdiscretionary
>>>         \endgroup}
>>>
>>> \aliased\let\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop\explicitdiscretionary
>>>
>>>      \permanent\protected\def\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes-%
>>>        {\superexplicitdiscretionary}
>>>
>>>      \permanent\protected\def\-%
>>>
>>> {\doifelsenextcharcs-\lang_explicit_discretionary_yes\lang_explicit_discretionary_nop} 
>>>
>>>
>>>      \protect \popoverloadmode
>>>
>>>      \nohyphens \hsize 1mm
>>>
>>>      test\-test \par test\--test
>>>
>>> \stoptext
>>
>> \= macron accent (bar) should not be changed.
>>
>> \-- is a good suggestion, like insisting, and should not get confused 
>> with -- (en dash).
> 
> Is there some problem to make it just another option.
> 
> \enabledirectives[hyphenators.discretionary=hyphenated|nothyphenated]
or maybe some key is \setuplanguages (what key)

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Alan Braslau]

On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 00:12:40 +0200
Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> >> \= macron accent (bar) should not be changed.
> >>
> >> \-- is a good suggestion, like insisting, and should not get
> >> confused with -- (en dash).  
> > 
> > Is there some problem to make it just another option.
> > 
> > \enabledirectives[hyphenators.discretionary=hyphenated|nothyphenated]
> >  
> or maybe some key is \setuplanguages (what key)

Why not, but this would be somewhat obscure for the average user who
would have to identify and then set this option in all documents...

The \-- extension is kind-of nice, obscure in its own way but good
functionally. The risk is of users confusing this with the en ligature,
something that unicode users avoid...

Maybe implement both solutions (setup affecting \- as well as \--) in
Context?

Alan
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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Steffen Wolfrum]

> Am 01.07.2021 um 17:54 schrieb Alan Braslau <braslau.list@comcast.net>:
> 
> On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 00:12:40 +0200
> Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> 
>>>> \= macron accent (bar) should not be changed.
>>>> 
>>>> \-- is a good suggestion, like insisting, and should not get
>>>> confused with -- (en dash).  
>>> 
>>> Is there some problem to make it just another option.
>>> 
>>> \enabledirectives[hyphenators.discretionary=hyphenated|nothyphenated]
>>> 
>> or maybe some key is \setuplanguages (what key)
> 
> Why not, but this would be somewhat obscure for the average user who
> would have to identify and then set this option in all documents...
> 
> The \-- extension is kind-of nice, obscure in its own way but good
> functionally. The risk is of users confusing this with the en ligature,
> something that unicode users avoid...
> 
> Maybe implement both solutions (setup affecting \- as well as \--) in
> Context?


And what about \– (U+2013)?

Steffen


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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Alan Braslau]

On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 17:57:28 +0200
Steffen Wolfrum <context@st.estfiles.de> wrote:

> > Am 01.07.2021 um 17:54 schrieb Alan Braslau
> > <braslau.list@comcast.net>:
> > 
> > On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 00:12:40 +0200
> > Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >   
> >>>> \= macron accent (bar) should not be changed.
> >>>> 
> >>>> \-- is a good suggestion, like insisting, and should not get
> >>>> confused with -- (en dash).    
> >>> 
> >>> Is there some problem to make it just another option.
> >>> 
> >>> \enabledirectives[hyphenators.discretionary=hyphenated|nothyphenated]
> >>>   
> >> or maybe some key is \setuplanguages (what key)  
> > 
> > Why not, but this would be somewhat obscure for the average user who
> > would have to identify and then set this option in all documents...
> > 
> > The \-- extension is kind-of nice, obscure in its own way but good
> > functionally. The risk is of users confusing this with the en
> > ligature, something that unicode users avoid...
> > 
> > Maybe implement both solutions (setup affecting \- as well as \--)
> > in Context?  
> 
> 
> And what about \– (U+2013)?

Now THAT gets confusing!

Why not U+2010 (HYPHEN), the anti-U+2011 (NON BREAKING HYPHEN)
vs. U+002D (HYPHEN-MINUS). What a can of worms...

(which is why I like the \-- syntax)


Alan
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Re: hyphenate nothyphenated

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 01.07.2021 um 18:05 schrieb Alan Braslau <braslau.list@comcast.net>:
>> And what about \– (U+2013)?
> 
> Now THAT gets confusing!
> 
> Why not U+2010 (HYPHEN), the anti-U+2011 (NON BREAKING HYPHEN)
> vs. U+002D (HYPHEN-MINUS). What a can of worms...

Oh yes, let’s do Unicode Whitespace programming...

HR
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