where to place \index (again)

where to place \index (again)

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hi all, 

I'm in the final phase of editing a scholarly book with a pretty big index. What follows is less a question than an observation: no matter where I place the \index command, there can always be unwanted side effects:

foo\index{bar}: here, the entry may point to the page following the name, if the page break falls at this position. Moreover, when this is followed by punctuation or footnotes, there may be a line break between the word and the punctuation/footnote mark. Placing it at the end of a long footnote is asking for even more trouble, because there's a real risk that a page break may occur.

\index{bar}foo: the book is typeset with character protrusion, and this seems to introduce additional material which can disturb line endings, so that lines before such an indexed word appear to be missing one character at the end.

So this is what I observe. Working around this is possible, but painful - I have to check every page for such bad linebreaks or misplaced punctuation marks. My question then is: will it be possible, at one point in luatex development, to find a more robust solution for this? This would be wonderful, I think!

All best

Thomas
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Re: where to place \index (again)

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 26.06.2011 um 14:54 schrieb Thomas A. Schmitz:

> Hi all, 
> 
> I'm in the final phase of editing a scholarly book with a pretty big index. What follows is less a question than an observation: no matter where I place the \index command, there can always be unwanted side effects:
> 
> foo\index{bar}: here, the entry may point to the page following the name, if the page break falls at this position. Moreover, when this is followed by punctuation or footnotes, there may be a line break between the word and the punctuation/footnote mark. Placing it at the end of a long footnote is asking for even more trouble, because there's a real risk that a page break may occur.
> 
> \index{bar}foo: the book is typeset with character protrusion, and this seems to introduce additional material which can disturb line endings, so that lines before such an indexed word appear to be missing one character at the end.
> 
> So this is what I observe. Working around this is possible, but painful - I have to check every page for such bad linebreaks or misplaced punctuation marks. My question then is: will it be possible, at one point in luatex development, to find a more robust solution for this? This would be wonderful, I think!


So do I ... Below is a minimal showing both unhappy cases.

Steffen
-------


Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail:

> Von: Steffen Wolfrum <context@st.estfiles.de>
> Datum: 24. Mai 2011 11:28:03 MESZ
> An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Betreff: where to put an \index{foo} ?
> 
> ...
> 
> \showframe
> 
> \setupbodyfont[times,10pt]\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]
> 
> \definetolerancemethod
> [horizontal]
> [MySpace]
> {\spaceskip3.02pt plus1.99998pt minus1.0pt\relax}
> 
> \setupalign[line,block,hanging]
> \setuptolerance[MySpace]
> 
> \setupindenting[10pt,yes]
> 
> \definepapersize[stw][width=14.7cm,height=22.3cm]
> \setuppapersize[stw][stw]
> 
> \setuplayout
> 	[width=113mm,height=572pt,
> 	backspace=17mm,topspace=17mm,
> 	header=12pt,headerdistance=6pt,
> 	footer=36pt,footerdistance=0pt,
> 	location=middle,marking=off]
> 
> 
> \starttext
> 
> {\em Case 1: line wrap before dot}
> 
> \noindent dieses ist dabei typisch für den Bereich der Architekten- oder
> Ingenieurleistungen\index{Ingenieurleistungen}. Warum?
> 
> \blank
> 
> {\em Case 2: line wrap after visible space}
> 
> Bei den Grünen werden neben den beiden Fraktionsvorsitzenden, Renate \index{Künast}Künast und Jürgen Trittin ...
> \stoptext

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Re: where to place \index (again)

[Hans Hagen]

On 26-6-2011 2:54, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm in the final phase of editing a scholarly book with a pretty big index. What follows is less a question than an observation: no matter where I place the \index command, there can always be unwanted side effects:
>
> foo\index{bar}: here, the entry may point to the page following the name, if the page break falls at this position. Moreover, when this is followed by punctuation or footnotes, there may be a line break between the word and the punctuation/footnote mark. Placing it at the end of a long footnote is asking for even more trouble, because there's a real risk that a page break may occur.
>
> \index{bar}foo: the book is typeset with character protrusion, and this seems to introduce additional material which can disturb line endings, so that lines before such an indexed word appear to be missing one character at the end.
>
> So this is what I observe. Working around this is possible, but painful - I have to check every page for such bad linebreaks or misplaced punctuation marks. My question then is: will it be possible, at one point in luatex development, to find a more robust solution for this? This would be wonderful, I think!

\index is connected to the next word or when on a line on it own as in 
\chapter{x} \index{x} <emptyline> text to the next paragraph

concerning the character protrusion: that looks like a bug so if we can 
have a small example demonstrating it ... esp the disappearing character 
is weird

(I can introduce a couple of processing modes if needed, but then you 
have to check if an index entry points to a word starting on a previous 
page. In any case, changing the default behaviour might have other side 
effects for existing documents.)

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: where to place \index (again)

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 26.06.2011 um 19:47 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 26-6-2011 2:54, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm in the final phase of editing a scholarly book with a pretty big index. What follows is less a question than an observation: no matter where I place the \index command, there can always be unwanted side effects:
>> 
>> foo\index{bar}: here, the entry may point to the page following the name, if the page break falls at this position. Moreover, when this is followed by punctuation or footnotes, there may be a line break between the word and the punctuation/footnote mark. Placing it at the end of a long footnote is asking for even more trouble, because there's a real risk that a page break may occur.
>> 
>> \index{bar}foo: the book is typeset with character protrusion, and this seems to introduce additional material which can disturb line endings, so that lines before such an indexed word appear to be missing one character at the end.
>> 
>> So this is what I observe. Working around this is possible, but painful - I have to check every page for such bad linebreaks or misplaced punctuation marks. My question then is: will it be possible, at one point in luatex development, to find a more robust solution for this? This would be wonderful, I think!
> 
> \index is connected to the next word or when on a line on it own as in \chapter{x} \index{x} <emptyline> text to the next paragraph
> 
> concerning the character protrusion: that looks like a bug so if we can have a small example demonstrating it ... esp the disappearing character is weird


Sure, the minimal example that I posted already twice shows exactly this case: 
The line before an indexed word appears to be missing one character at the end.

See "Case 2" in attached example, please.

Steffen
-------

\showframe

\setupbodyfont[times,10pt]\setupinterlinespace[line=12pt]

\definetolerancemethod
[horizontal]
[MySpace]
{\spaceskip3.02pt plus1.99998pt minus1.0pt\relax}

\setupalign[line,block,hanging]
\setuptolerance[MySpace]

\setupindenting[10pt,yes]

\definepapersize[stw][width=14.7cm,height=22.3cm]
\setuppapersize[stw][stw]

\setuplayout
	[width=113mm,height=572pt,
	backspace=17mm,topspace=17mm,
	header=12pt,headerdistance=6pt,
	footer=36pt,footerdistance=0pt,
	location=middle,marking=off]


\starttext

{\em Case 1: line wrap before dot}

\noindent dieses ist dabei typisch für den Bereich der Architekten- oder
Ingenieurleistungen\index{Ingenieurleistungen}. Warum?

\blank

{\em Case 2: line wrap after visible space}

Bei den Grünen werden neben den beiden Fraktionsvorsitzenden, Renate \index{Künast}Künast und Jürgen Trittin ...
\stoptext

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Re: where to place \index (again)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 26.06.2011 um 21:13 schrieb Steffen Wolfrum:

>> concerning the character protrusion: that looks like a bug so if we can have a small example demonstrating it ... esp the disappearing character is weird
> 
> Sure, the minimal example that I posted already twice shows exactly this case: 
> The line before an indexed word appears to be missing one character at the end.


You should try to make shorter examples ;)

\setuplayout[width=6.3cm]\showframe
%\let\forcecolorhack\relax
\starttext
This is a short sentence to check \index{test}the \tex{index} command.

This is another sentence for the test\index{test}.
\stoptext

The problem when you put the \index command before a word is that
it can end in a visible space at the end of the previous line.

Wolfgang

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: where to place \index (again)

[Thomas Schmitz]

On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 21:29:47 +0200
  Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> 
wrote:
> 
> Am 26.06.2011 um 21:13 schrieb Steffen Wolfrum:
> 
>>> concerning the character protrusion: that looks like a 
>>>bug so if we can have a small example demonstrating it 
>>>... esp the disappearing character is weird
>> 
>> Sure, the minimal example that I posted already twice 
>>shows exactly this case: 
>> The line before an indexed word appears to be missing 
>>one character at the end.
> 
> 
> You should try to make shorter examples ;)
> 
> \setuplayout[width=6.3cm]\showframe
> %\let\forcecolorhack\relax
> \starttext
> This is a short sentence to check \index{test}the 
>\tex{index} command.
> 
> This is another sentence for the test\index{test}.
> \stoptext
> 
> The problem when you put the \index command before a 
>word is that
> it can end in a visible space at the end of the previous 
>line.
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
Thanks, Wolfgang. Just to confirm: yes, this short test 
does indeed show exactly the effects I was referring to. 
So question to Taco: could some lua trickery somehow get 
around these nasty effects?  Because they really make 
finishing a long project somewhat difficult...

Thomas
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Re: where to place \index (again)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 26.06.2011 um 22:18 schrieb Thomas Schmitz:

>> \setuplayout[width=6.3cm]\showframe
>> %\let\forcecolorhack\relax
>> \starttext
>> This is a short sentence to check \index{test}the \tex{index} command.
>> This is another sentence for the test\index{test}.
>> \stoptext
>> The problem when you put the \index command before a word is that
>> it can end in a visible space at the end of the previous line.
>> Wolfgang
> Thanks, Wolfgang. Just to confirm: yes, this short test does indeed show exactly the effects I was referring to. So question to Taco: could some lua trickery somehow get around these nasty effects?  Because they really make finishing a long project somewhat difficult...

The effect is caused by \forcecolorhack and when uncomment
my redefinition you can see that the output is as expected
but there has to be a reason why Hans use it.

Wolfgang

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Re: where to place \index (again)

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 26.06.2011 um 22:18 schrieb Thomas Schmitz:

> On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 21:29:47 +0200
> Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am 26.06.2011 um 21:13 schrieb Steffen Wolfrum:
>>>> concerning the character protrusion: that looks like a bug so if we can have a small example demonstrating it ... esp the disappearing character is weird
>>> Sure, the minimal example that I posted already twice shows exactly this case: The line before an indexed word appears to be missing one character at the end.
>> You should try to make shorter examples ;)
>> \setuplayout[width=6.3cm]\showframe
>> %\let\forcecolorhack\relax
>> \starttext
>> This is a short sentence to check \index{test}the \tex{index} command.
>> This is another sentence for the test\index{test}.
>> \stoptext
>> The problem when you put the \index command before a word is that
>> it can end in a visible space at the end of the previous line.
>> Wolfgang
> Thanks, Wolfgang. Just to confirm: yes, this short test does indeed show exactly the effects I was referring to. So question to Taco: could some lua trickery somehow get around these nasty effects?  Because they really make finishing a long project somewhat difficult...


For the first case you describe theres is already a tracker item:

http://tracker.luatex.org/view.php?id=381 


Steffen

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Re: where to place \index (again)

[Hans Hagen]

On 26-6-2011 10:18, Thomas Schmitz wrote:

> Thanks, Wolfgang. Just to confirm: yes, this short test does indeed show
> exactly the effects I was referring to. So question to Taco: could some
> lua trickery somehow get around these nasty effects? Because they really
> make finishing a long project somewhat difficult...

you can't blame taco for that -)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: where to place \index (again)

[Hans Hagen]

On 26-6-2011 10:52, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>
> Am 26.06.2011 um 22:18 schrieb Thomas Schmitz:
>
>>> \setuplayout[width=6.3cm]\showframe
>>> %\let\forcecolorhack\relax
>>> \starttext
>>> This is a short sentence to check \index{test}the \tex{index} command.
>>> This is another sentence for the test\index{test}.
>>> \stoptext
>>> The problem when you put the \index command before a word is that
>>> it can end in a visible space at the end of the previous line.
>>> Wolfgang
>> Thanks, Wolfgang. Just to confirm: yes, this short test does indeed show exactly the effects I was referring to. So question to Taco: could some lua trickery somehow get around these nasty effects?  Because they really make finishing a long project somewhat difficult...
>
> The effect is caused by \forcecolorhack and when uncomment
> my redefinition you can see that the output is as expected
> but there has to be a reason why Hans use it.

the colorhack is needed to getsomething with a reference; i'll change it 
to a signal (let's see where that fails)

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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