From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/18920 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: h h extern Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Re: Learning ConTeXt, typical hurdle Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:27:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4234BE37.6000405@wxs.nl> References: <60028.213.84.141.31.1110461682.squirrel@213.84.141.31> <60915.213.84.141.31.1110470951.squirrel@213.84.141.31> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1110755581 24246 80.91.229.2 (13 Mar 2005 23:13:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:13:01 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Mon Mar 14 00:13:01 2005 Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl ([131.211.172.88] helo=ronja.ntg.nl) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DAcCs-00032n-3i for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:09:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E2A128CA; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:09:07 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ronja.vet.uu.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 30216-03-41; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:09:06 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA7F128C3; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:09:03 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BE8128C2 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:08:56 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ronja.vet.uu.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 30069-04-30 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:08:55 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mailrelay01.solcon.nl (maillb.solcon.nl [212.45.32.200]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CA5128C1 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:08:55 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from server-1.pragma-net.nl (dsl-212-84-128-085.solcon.nl [212.84.128.85]) by mailrelay01.solcon.nl (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2DN8ngb005288 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:08:49 +0100 Original-Received: by server-1.pragma-net.nl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id C34D718224; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:53:23 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [10.100.1.1]) by server-1.pragma-net.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547D717C1E for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:53:20 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Original-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users In-Reply-To: <60915.213.84.141.31.1110470951.squirrel@213.84.141.31> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/744/Fri Mar 4 04:01:45 2005 clamav-milter version 0.80j on mailrelay01 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at ntg.nl X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at ntg.nl X-MailScanner-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl X-MailScanner-To: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:18920 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tex.context:18920 Gerben Wierda wrote: >>Hey Gerben, >> >> >>>Now what turns out to solve this? Empty lines before \description and >>>\stopdescriptions >> >>Things that were defined using \definedescription rely on \par as a >>delimiter. >> >> >>>Though I like ConTeXt if I look at certain design aspects, behaviour >>>that >>>depends on whitespace before a command frightens me. >> >>Just the way it works :-) Nothing to worry about. > > > What this introduces is that the working of the ascii file depends on its > layout. I can understand that an empty line does a \par (it is convenient > after all) but I would see that kind of behaviour kept to a minimum. That > is, now I have this 'invisible' element that is needed to close my > structure. It is something quite unexpected for me in a TeX workflow. > Different layout because of a missing empty line, fine. But an error > message and a halt really surprises me. Another part of a learning curve > which if you want adoption you should try to avoid. But maybe it is > impossible to make ConTeXt more 'forgiving'. > > The alternative is \startdescription\stopdescription which is logically > nicer, but adds inconvenience to the typing/editing > > IMO LaTeX here does a better user-interface job (not just because I happen > to know LaTeX). Withing the description environment \item starts a new > item and the item ends with the start of another item or the end of the > environment. Completely independent of the layout of the ascii file. > > It would IMO be a lot friendlier if my \stopdescriptions and \description > commands would take care of this and I could do things like: > > \startdescriptions > \description{Foo} Bar bar bar > \description{Foo} Bar bar bar > \description{Foo} Bar bar bar > \stopdescriptions > > without triggering an error. this could be made working to some extend, but it would complicate the code; this mechanism actually is implemented so that it can handle: \starttext \definedescription[test] \test oeps whow \par \test oeps whow \test {oeps} whow \par \test {oeps} whow \par \starttest {oeps} whow \stoptest \stoptext nowadays i tend to more verbose coding; anyhow, we can add something \unprotect \def\startdescriptions {\dosingleempty\dostartdescriptions} \def\dostartdescriptions[#1]% {\begingroup \def\item{\getvalue{#1}}% \let\dostoppairdescription \donothing \let\@@description \dostartpairdescription \let\@@startsomedescription\dostartsomedescription} \def\stopdescriptions {\dostoppairdescription \endgroup} \def\dostartpairdescription[#1][#2]% {\dostoppairdescription \def\dostoppairdescription{\@@stopdescription{#1}}% \bgroup \def\currentdescription{#1}% \doifelse{\descriptionparameter{\s!do\c!state}}\v!start {\@@makedescription{#1}[#2]{}} {\@@makedescription{#1}[#2]}} \def\dostartsomedescription % #1[#2]#3% {\bgroup \@@makedescription} % {#1}[#2]{#3}} \protect \starttext \definedescription[test] \startdescriptions \test{Foo} Bar bar bar \test{Foo} Bar bar bar \test{Foo} Bar bar bar \stopdescriptions \startdescriptions \starttest{Foo} Bar bar bar \stoptest \starttest{Foo} Bar bar bar \stoptest \starttest{Foo} Bar bar bar \stoptest \stopdescriptions \startdescriptions[test] \item{Foo} Bar bar bar \item{Foo} Bar bar bar \item{Foo} Bar bar bar \stopdescriptions \stoptext for those who have problems adapting; so, what does the general context public think of such an extension? Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl -----------------------------------------------------------------