Re: my new page on layout

Re: my new page on layout

[Duncan Hothersall]

I appreciate the effort you've put into this, Paul, but

> "This primary audience for this page is XML authors who want to use
> ConTeXt to format an XML document." 

is still not enough of a disclaimer. I use ConTeXt as part of a large 
XML-based workflow, but don't use TeXML (nor do I use much of the 
built-in parser, except for MathML processing). There are very many ways 
to integrate ConTeXt into XML work, and it needs to be clear that this 
is just one of them.

It is entirely worthwhile documenting it though, and thanks for doing that.

[In case anyone is interested, we use a (commercial) programming 
language called OmniMark to process DocBook-based XML into pure ConTeXt 
+ MathML, and then let ConTeXt produce pages from it. We also use 
OmniMark directly to produce HTML and databases from the same XML sources.]

Duncan

Re: my new page on layout

[h h extern]

Paul Tremblay wrote:
> I've authored a new page on laying out pages in ConText. This page will
> be just one in a number of pages on using ConTeXt with XML. 
> 
> The new page can be found at
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/paulhtremblay/context_xml/page2.html
> 
> I would appreciate any feedback. I hope the page will be useful in
> helping others overcome some of the difficulty I had in trying to
> understand layout in ConTeXt. I believe it is very thorough. I hope it
> is clear (it contains many illustrations) and accurate.
> 
> I put this page up on yahoo because it had so many graphics, and because
> trying to cut and paste the entire page to the wiki would have been too
> difficult. The yahoo location is just temporary. Probably I will create
> a sourceforge project to host the page.

<cmd name="definelayout">
  <opt>
    backspace = 40mm,
    cutspace=38mm,
    width=middle
  </opt>
</cmd>

no space before/after the =

backspace=4mm,  : works
backspace= 4cm, : works in this case because used dimen assignment
backspace =4cm  : does not work the var name is now 'backspace '

only spaces precedign a keyword are catched

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: my new page on layout

[Vit Zyka]

Adam Lindsay wrote:
> A pair of "Tips":
> * If you set cutspace/bottomspace to 0pt, ConTeXt automatically makes it
> equal to backspace/topspace

Is it a correct way fulfilling the ConTeXt spirit?

I do not think so. If I set something to 0pt, I want it to be 0pt. If it 
is not set, it is default, and it might be equal to backspace/topspace. 
And there should be additional possibility 'cutspace=backspace' for 
explicit settings of equality.

No?
vit

Re: my new page on layout

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

BTW I added links to your pages to the XML and Layout pages of the wiki.

Grüßlis vom Hraban!
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://contextgarden.net

Re: my new page on layout

[Adam Lindsay]

Paul Tremblay said this at Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:28:49 -0500:

>One soluton is to put a type of disclaimer at the top of each page:
>"This primary audience for this page is XML authors who want to use
>ConTeXt to format an XML document." 

That would make me happier. Adding some words like "one way of many" and
"simplification for the sake of instruction" would be even better.

>Thanks again. I think your input has made my document stronger, and I
>hope my document will help my ConTeXt easier to understand, even in a
>small way. 

I might sound harsh at times, but I *do* appreciate what you're trying to
do. Layout stuff is under-represented in the documentation, especially
the newer stuff.

adam

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: my new page on layout

[Paul Tremblay]

On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 10:38:54AM +0000, Adam Lindsay wrote:

>I guess my gripe was with how web pages work, combined with your
>prescriptive tone: I only looked at that page2.html, because that's the
>one you linked to. Deep linking happens all the time, and Google only  
>multiplies the problem. People seeing only that page2 lose all context,
>and as a result, many people who have nothing to do with XML will see
>your page and think "oh, that's the only way to do it."

I agree with your point. Also, I realize I am a novice and not an expert
who has worked with ConTeXt for 10 years. The problem is keeping the
prose as concise as possible. Having to continually say at each
description "One possible way to solve this problem that I found works
for me is to..." would make things verbose. 

One soluton is to put a type of disclaimer at the top of each page:
"This primary audience for this page is XML authors who want to use
ConTeXt to format an XML document." 

> 
> >Thanks for yoru feedback. I wish I had understood the width=middle
> >earlier. 
> 
> Well, no problem. I feel like I'm still learning the intricacies of
> Layout, but I do intend on documenting some hacks sometime...
> 
> A pair of "Tips":
> * If you set cutspace/bottomspace to 0pt, ConTeXt automatically makes it
> equal to backspace/topspace

Ah! Good tip. 

> 
> Now that you have cutspace sorted, horoffset and veroffset don't seem as
> necessary. (Especially as they don't seem to work with odd/even layouts,
> at least as I've observed.)

Yes, I thought of that last night. I kept that section in because it was
still accurate, but I really should get rid of it.

> 
> There's something a bit too absolute and limiting about your statements:
> 
> >Unfortunately, the text width must be the same on all pages. If you
> >change the width from one page to the next, the text will not necessarily
> >line up.

> 
> Taken out of context, this sounds very dire for ConTeXt. Might I suggest
> a qualifier "must be the same on all pages *that are part of the same
> text flow*."

Yes, I completely agree. I thought of this as well. I'll change this.

Thanks again. I think your input has made my document stronger, and I
hope my document will help my ConTeXt easier to understand, even in a
small way. 

Paul

-- 

************************
*Paul Tremblay         *
*phthenry@iglou.com    *
************************

Re: my new page on layout

[Willi Egger]

Hi Paul,

First of all I find your pages a good starting point. Still I believe 
that Adam's suggestions are correct. Within the ConTeXt environment most 
of the time more than one approach is possible. Humble but neither put 
the option width=fit nor to say layout=middle is the way to go when 
layouting a page on a given format of paper e.g. A4. Then you would 
rather calculate the position where the print should come an adjust the 
parameters accordingly.

Willi

By the way it is \starttext ... \stoptext



Adam Lindsay wrote:
> Paul Tremblay said this at Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:33 -0500:
> 
> 
>>http://www.geocities.com/paulhtremblay/context_xml/page2.html
>>
>>I would appreciate any feedback. I hope the page will be useful in
>>helping others overcome some of the difficulty I had in trying to
>>understand layout in ConTeXt. I believe it is very thorough. I hope it
>>is clear (it contains many illustrations) and accurate.
> 
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Your prose is fairly clear, but the style tends to be a bit too
> prescriptive for my tastes. I think a lot of it would be alleviated by
> you setting up the context a bit more ("this is what I found works for
> me, coming from the FO page model"). Still, you set out statements like
> this without telling the whole story:
> 
> 
>>Always set your width to fit.
> 
> 
> Furthermore, I think our models of ConTeXt page layout are somewhat
> different. You say this in the article:
> 
> 
>>Do not make the mistake in thinking that the cutspace property is the
>>equivelent of the backspace property. The cutspace property is the sum of
>>some rather complicated calculations.
> 
> 
> Looking at page-lay, it seems like your perceived "complications" would
> go away to some extent by telling people to use "width=middle", for example.
> 
> It's clear and thorough. I have some concerns about its accuracy, however.

Re: my new page on layout

[Adam Lindsay]

Paul Tremblay said this at Sun, 27 Mar 2005 01:55:58 -0500:

>> Your prose is fairly clear, but the style tends to be a bit too
>> prescriptive for my tastes. I think a lot of it would be alleviated by
>> you setting up the context a bit more ("this is what I found works for
>> me, coming from the FO page model"). Still, you set out statements like
>> this without telling the whole story:
>
>I think that the first page makes my intentions clear. My audience is
>XML authors (though I think others will find the illustratons useful).
>I undertand that there are many ways of doing things in ConTeXt and I
>don't mean that ConTeXt authors should follow the advice. I think XML
>authors will want one clear way of doing things rather than confusing
>alternatives.

I completely sympathise with that approach to teaching. Hearing "there's
more than one way to do it" at the start of a learning curve can be
frustrating.

I guess my gripe was with how web pages work, combined with your
prescriptive tone: I only looked at that page2.html, because that's the
one you linked to. Deep linking happens all the time, and Google only
multiplies the problem. People seeing only that page2 lose all context,
and as a result, many people who have nothing to do with XML will see
your page and think "oh, that's the only way to do it."

That, combined with some of your perceived limitations of the platform,
helps paint a more limited view of ConTeXt's capabilities.

>Thanks for yoru feedback. I wish I had understood the width=middle
>earlier. 

Well, no problem. I feel like I'm still learning the intricacies of
Layout, but I do intend on documenting some hacks sometime...

A pair of "Tips":
* If you set cutspace/bottomspace to 0pt, ConTeXt automatically makes it
equal to backspace/topspace

Now that you have cutspace sorted, horoffset and veroffset don't seem as
necessary. (Especially as they don't seem to work with odd/even layouts,
at least as I've observed.)

There's something a bit too absolute and limiting about your statements:

>Unfortunately, the text width must be the same on all pages. If you
>change the width from one page to the next, the text will not necessarily
>line up.

Taken out of context, this sounds very dire for ConTeXt. Might I suggest
a qualifier "must be the same on all pages *that are part of the same
text flow*."
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: my new page on layout

[Otared Kavian]

At 12:43 -0500 26/03/05, Paul Tremblay wrote:
>I've authored a new page on laying out pages in ConText. This page will
>be just one in a number of pages on using ConTeXt with XML.
>
>The new page can be found at
>
>http://www.geocities.com/paulhtremblay/context_xml/page2.html


Many thanks for your insight: your explanations are very clear and useful!

Best regards: OK

Re: my new page on layout

[Paul Tremblay]

> 
> Your prose is fairly clear, but the style tends to be a bit too
> prescriptive for my tastes. I think a lot of it would be alleviated by
> you setting up the context a bit more ("this is what I found works for
> me, coming from the FO page model"). Still, you set out statements like
> this without telling the whole story:
> 

I think that the first page makes my intentions clear. My audience is
XML authors (though I think others will find the illustratons useful).
I undertand that there are many ways of doing things in ConTeXt and I
don't mean that ConTeXt authors should follow the advice. I think XML
authors will want one clear way of doing things rather than confusing
alternatives.
> 
> Looking at page-lay, it seems like your perceived "complications" would
> go away to some extent by telling people to use "width=middle", for example.

Fixed. The page now reflects the correct changes.

Thanks for yoru feedback. I wish I had understood the width=middle
earlier. I had to completely re-do my graphics once when I couldn't get
cutspace to work, and then I had to change it again.

Paul

-- 

************************
*Paul Tremblay         *
*phthenry@iglou.com    *
************************

Re: my new page on layout

[Paul Tremblay]

On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 11:20:58PM +0100, Vit Zyka wrote:
> 
> Ohh, my error. Correct code:
> 
>   \setupfootertexts[\rlap{Romanticism}\hfill
>     \pagenumber \hfill \llap{Civil Disobedience}][] [][...]
> 
> Consider
>   \setupfootertexts[\rlap{A}\hfill\pagenumber\hfill\llap{B}][][][]
> If width(A)!=width(B) then \pagenumber is not in the center.
>   \fill's add the equal space between A-\pagenumber and \pagenumber-B.
> If width(A-different-page)!=width(A) then (generaly) \pagenumber change 
> position page-to-page.
> 
> \rlap makes hbox of zero width with right overlapping, \llap with left.
> 

Thanks! Now this makes sense. I changed the page accordingly.

Paul

-- 

************************
*Paul Tremblay         *
*phthenry@iglou.com    *
************************

Re: my new page on layout

[Adam Lindsay]

Paul Tremblay said this at Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:33 -0500:

>http://www.geocities.com/paulhtremblay/context_xml/page2.html
>
>I would appreciate any feedback. I hope the page will be useful in
>helping others overcome some of the difficulty I had in trying to
>understand layout in ConTeXt. I believe it is very thorough. I hope it
>is clear (it contains many illustrations) and accurate.

Hi Paul,

Your prose is fairly clear, but the style tends to be a bit too
prescriptive for my tastes. I think a lot of it would be alleviated by
you setting up the context a bit more ("this is what I found works for
me, coming from the FO page model"). Still, you set out statements like
this without telling the whole story:

>Always set your width to fit.

Furthermore, I think our models of ConTeXt page layout are somewhat
different. You say this in the article:

>Do not make the mistake in thinking that the cutspace property is the
>equivelent of the backspace property. The cutspace property is the sum of
>some rather complicated calculations.

Looking at page-lay, it seems like your perceived "complications" would
go away to some extent by telling people to use "width=middle", for example.

It's clear and thorough. I have some concerns about its accuracy, however.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: my new page on layout

[Vit Zyka]

Paul Tremblay wrote:
>>Just as addition. If you want page number in the same (center) position 
>>in the footer, add \smash command to your example
>>  \setupfootertexts[Romanticism \hfill
>>    \pagenumber \hfill Civil Disobedience][] [][...]
>>so
>>  \setupfootertexts[\smash{Romanticism }\hfill
>>    \pagenumber \hfill \smash{Civil Disobedience}][] [][...]
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. What does \smash do? If I don't use \smash, my
> footer text appears to be in the same position, in the center.

Ohh, my error. Correct code:

   \setupfootertexts[\rlap{Romanticism}\hfill
     \pagenumber \hfill \llap{Civil Disobedience}][] [][...]

Consider
   \setupfootertexts[\rlap{A}\hfill\pagenumber\hfill\llap{B}][][][]
If width(A)!=width(B) then \pagenumber is not in the center.
   \fill's add the equal space between A-\pagenumber and \pagenumber-B.
If width(A-different-page)!=width(A) then (generaly) \pagenumber change 
position page-to-page.

\rlap makes hbox of zero width with right overlapping, \llap with left.

\smash do not change width but makes zero height and depth. That is not 
what we need.

vit

Re: my new page on layout

[Paul Tremblay]

> 
> Just as addition. If you want page number in the same (center) position 
> in the footer, add \smash command to your example
>   \setupfootertexts[Romanticism \hfill
>     \pagenumber \hfill Civil Disobedience][] [][...]
> so
>   \setupfootertexts[\smash{Romanticism }\hfill
>     \pagenumber \hfill \smash{Civil Disobedience}][] [][...]
> 

Thanks for the feedback. What does \smash do? If I don't use \smash, my
footer text appears to be in the same position, in the center.

Thanks

Paul

-- 

************************
*Paul Tremblay         *
*phthenry@iglou.com    *
************************

Re: my new page on layout

[Vit Zyka]

Paul Tremblay wrote:
> The new page can be found at
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/paulhtremblay/context_xml/page2.html

Paul, pictures are very intuitive. Great!

> I would appreciate any feedback. I hope the page will be useful in

Just as addition. If you want page number in the same (center) position 
in the footer, add \smash command to your example
   \setupfootertexts[Romanticism \hfill
     \pagenumber \hfill Civil Disobedience][] [][...]
so
   \setupfootertexts[\smash{Romanticism }\hfill
     \pagenumber \hfill \smash{Civil Disobedience}][] [][...]

vit

Re: my new page on layout

[VnPenguin]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:33 -0500, Paul Tremblay <phthenry@iglou.com> wrote:
> I've authored a new page on laying out pages in ConText. This page will
> be just one in a number of pages on using ConTeXt with XML.
> 
> The new page can be found at
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/paulhtremblay/context_xml/page2.html

Very useful !
Thank you,
Q.

my new page on layout

[Paul Tremblay]

I've authored a new page on laying out pages in ConText. This page will
be just one in a number of pages on using ConTeXt with XML. 

The new page can be found at

http://www.geocities.com/paulhtremblay/context_xml/page2.html

I would appreciate any feedback. I hope the page will be useful in
helping others overcome some of the difficulty I had in trying to
understand layout in ConTeXt. I believe it is very thorough. I hope it
is clear (it contains many illustrations) and accurate.

I put this page up on yahoo because it had so many graphics, and because
trying to cut and paste the entire page to the wiki would have been too
difficult. The yahoo location is just temporary. Probably I will create
a sourceforge project to host the page.

Thanks

Paul

-- 

************************
*Paul Tremblay         *
*phthenry@iglou.com    *
************************