\setupbodyfont[10dd]

\setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Mojca Miklavec]

Hello,

This question doesn't come from me, but as I wasn't able to answer,
I'm posting it here:

Consider the following text:

\setupbodyfont[20pt]
\starttext
\input tufte

\switchtobodyfont[10pt]\setupinterlinespace\page
\input tufte

\switchtobodyfont[10dd]\setupinterlinespace\page
\input tufte

\switchtobodyfont[10.6574803pt]\setupinterlinespace\page % = 10dd
\input tufte

\stoptext

How are the interline distances determined? The last two pages give
different results. The line breaking could be influenced by minimal
rounding mistakes, but I don't understand why the distances between
lines differ substantially.

Thank you,
    Mojca

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Peter Rolf]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> This question doesn't come from me, but as I wasn't able to answer,
> I'm posting it here:
> 
> Consider the following text:
> 
> \setupbodyfont[20pt]
> \starttext
> \input tufte
> 
> \switchtobodyfont[10pt]\setupinterlinespace\page
> \input tufte
> 
> \switchtobodyfont[10dd]\setupinterlinespace\page
> \input tufte
> 
> \switchtobodyfont[10.6574803pt]\setupinterlinespace\page % = 10dd
> \input tufte
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> How are the interline distances determined? The last two pages give
> different results. The line breaking could be influenced by minimal
> rounding mistakes, but I don't understand why the distances between
> lines differ substantially.
> 
> Thank you,
>     Mojca
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> 
> 
Hi Mojca,

taken from 'TeX by Topic', page 80:

1157 didot points are 1238 points.

1238/1157= 1.070008643

I have tried it with 10.7pt. Looks the same. Mixed up bp with pt?

Greetings,

Peter

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Mojca Miklavec]

Peter Rolf wrote:
> Hi Mojca,
> 
> taken from 'TeX by Topic', page 80:
> 
> 1157 didot points are 1238 points.
> 
> 1238/1157= 1.070008643
> 
> I have tried it with 10.7pt. Looks the same. Mixed up bp with pt?

I'm sorry, I was first confused by this example:

\switchtobodyfont[10pt]\setupinterlinespace\page
\input tufte
\switchtobodyfont[10dd]\setupinterlinespace\page
\input tufte
% interlinespace remained the same for both pt and dd

which (for whatever reason) lead to different result as in the expected:

\switchtobodyfont[10pt]\setupinterlinespace\page
\input tufte

\switchtobodyfont[10dd]\setupinterlinespace\page
\input tufte


And then, yes, I accidentally mixed the two points up.
I'm sorry. Someone wanted to convince me that it is not possible to
use didot points in ConTeXt and I was a bit confused when I was
testing it.

Hans, thank you for the (probably very important) remark about the
font sizes (\chardef\fontdigits=1). Can it be that exactly this
rounding to one decimal point screwed up font handling in proper didot
point sizes?

Don't ask me why, but apparently these minimalistic differences are
pretty important in publishing.

Mojca

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

>Don't ask me why, but apparently these minimalistic differences are
>pretty important in publishing.
>  
>
You're joking, aren't you? Publishing as dictated by the dtp world is only concerned about a few things: 

- everything should be on the grid (but manually tweak all exceptions, which are a lot) 
- use a lot of colors (but don't worry about about a systematic approach)
- tell newbies not to use too many different fonts and sizes per page, but also don't tell them that in practice you should use as many as possible without any system in relative scaling
- scale each graphic differently 
- tell tex users that their pdf file is wrong (probably a bitmap or so) because it's not made by their program 

and most importantly: 

- make a big fuzz about dimenions (like 8.45 point bodyfont sizes), claim to see the difference, but in practice consider adobe's bp to be the same as tex pt's 

and, i must not forget, 

- demands ragged right because it's impossible to do justification because if qe or pm cannot do it, it cannot be done anyway

combined with: 

- set all (hyphenation etc) penalties to 10000 because it's only this ancient tex that cannot come to a solution when all those demands are to be met at the same time 

and, soon, 

- let texies turn off hz, protruding, and whatever obscure things but demands the same tweaking that id has built in but is named differently and therefore better 

and, yes, this one: 

- give texies their specs in terms of 'use the values as set in the third menu from the right, fifth entry, tenth button' and that will do it

so ... in the end ... don't worry to much about small differences, because in the end nobody will contradict the designer (it's about art anyway), the printer (it was really your file that made the colors come out differently, the pages slightly smaller, the built in fonts show up weird, and so on) 

Hans 

(while looking at 100 books that are a series and supposedly were made from the same specs but messed up in the dtp process and printing) 


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[luigi.scarso]

Hans Hagen wrote:

> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> Don't ask me why, but apparently these minimalistic differences are
>> pretty important in publishing.
>>  
>>
> You're joking, aren't you? Publishing as dictated by the dtp world is 
> only concerned about a few things: 

As soon as possible, you should complete style.pdf  ( Typographic  
Programming )
luigi

(by the way, I use dd because I have a nice dtp-typometer with Punkte 
and Cicero and 0.5mm)

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Hans Hagen]

luigi.scarso wrote:

> Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>
>>> Don't ask me why, but apparently these minimalistic differences are
>>> pretty important in publishing.
>>>  
>>>
>> You're joking, aren't you? Publishing as dictated by the dtp world is 
>> only concerned about a few things: 
>
>
> As soon as possible, you should complete style.pdf  ( Typographic  
> Programming )
> luigi
>
> (by the way, I use dd because I have a nice dtp-typometer with Punkte 
> and Cicero and 0.5mm)

well, either that meter is flawed or you eyes are -) 

try: 

\the\dimexpr10nd-10dd\relax

\the\dimexpr10nc-10cc\relax

newdidot and newcicero: Don Knuth froze tex around the time that the standard changed -) 

Hans 


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Hans Hagen]

luigi.scarso wrote:

> Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>
>>> Don't ask me why, but apparently these minimalistic differences are
>>> pretty important in publishing.
>>>  
>>>
>> You're joking, aren't you? Publishing as dictated by the dtp world is 
>> only concerned about a few things: 
>
>
> As soon as possible, you should complete style.pdf  ( Typographic  
> Programming )
> luigi

yeah, a nice job for the coming winter, in my just finished library anex study annex attic annex music room -) 

Hns 


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[luigi.scarso]

Hans Hagen wrote:

> yeah, a nice job for the coming winter, in my just finished library 
> anex study annex attic annex music room -)
>
More I see style.pdf, more I like it (...about  colors:with xpdf it's 
not easy to read)
I'm sure that we need it : it will fill a hole.

For programmer ,we have pdfs for pdftex  (manuals and pdftex-web, );
for user/macro writer, we have pdfs for context (modules, 
cont-eni,ms-cb,metafun);
for good design we will have style.pdf .

luigi

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Christopher Creutzig]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> I'm sorry, I was first confused by this example:
> 
> \switchtobodyfont[10pt]\setupinterlinespace\page
> \input tufte
> \switchtobodyfont[10dd]\setupinterlinespace\page
> \input tufte
> % interlinespace remained the same for both pt and dd
> 
> which (for whatever reason) lead to different result as in the expected:

 The reason is simple: You are changing the interline space before
finishing the first paragraph.  TeX won't do different interline
spacings inside one paragraph, it always takes those in effect at the end.

 In any case, your logic seems to go contrary to mine (which may of
course be my twisted mind): I would always have placed the \page command
in front of the others.  Whenevr that makes a difference, I want the new
font to only appear on the new page.


Christopher

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Hans Hagen]

Peter Rolf wrote:

>Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>  
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>This question doesn't come from me, but as I wasn't able to answer,
>>I'm posting it here:
>>
>>Consider the following text:
>>
>>\setupbodyfont[20pt]
>>\starttext
>>\input tufte
>>
>>\switchtobodyfont[10pt]\setupinterlinespace\page
>>\input tufte
>>
>>\switchtobodyfont[10dd]\setupinterlinespace\page
>>\input tufte
>>
>>\switchtobodyfont[10.6574803pt]\setupinterlinespace\page % = 10dd
>>\input tufte
>>
>>\stoptext
>>
>>How are the interline distances determined? The last two pages give
>>different results. The line breaking could be influenced by minimal
>>rounding mistakes, but I don't understand why the distances between
>>lines differ substantially.
>>
>>Thank you,
>>    Mojca
>>_______________________________________________
>>ntg-context mailing list
>>ntg-context@ntg.nl
>>http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>Hi Mojca,
>
>taken from 'TeX by Topic', page 80:
>
>1157 didot points are 1238 points.
>
>1238/1157= 1.070008643
>
>I have tried it with 10.7pt. Looks the same. Mixed up bp with pt?
>  
>
what dd's new or old -)

\starttext

\setupcolors[state=start]

\startMPpage

nd := \the\dimexpr50nd\relax ; dd := \the\dimexpr50dd\relax ;
nc := \the\dimexpr50nc\relax ; cc := \the\dimexpr50cc\relax ;

draw fullcircle scaled cc withcolor .9white withpen pencircle scaled (cc-nc) ;
draw fullcircle scaled dd withcolor .9white withpen pencircle scaled (dd-nd) ;

addbackground withcolor .5red ;

\stopMPpage

\stoptext


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: \setupbodyfont[10dd]

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

>Hello,
>
>This question doesn't come from me, but as I wasn't able to answer,
>I'm posting it here:
>
>Consider the following text:
>
>\setupbodyfont[20pt]
>\starttext
>\input tufte
>
>\switchtobodyfont[10pt]\setupinterlinespace\page
>\input tufte
>
>\switchtobodyfont[10dd]\setupinterlinespace\page
>\input tufte
>
>\switchtobodyfont[10.6574803pt]\setupinterlinespace\page % = 10dd
>\input tufte
>
>  
>
this is rounded, determined by

\chardef\fontdigits=1

this in order to overcome abundant usage of fonts due to rounding 
differences, so

10.65...3pt becomes 10.7 points

>\stoptext
>
>How are the interline distances determined? The last two pages give
>different results. The line breaking could be influenced by minimal
>rounding mistakes, but I don't understand why the distances between
>lines differ substantially.
>  
>
by default height/depth => .72ex/.28ex (heritage from inrstex) 

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------