beginners manual

beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so 
i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread

So the question is:

- what can go out
- what should go in
- what should be updated

as well as:

- who will participate (in translation)
- how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)

Hans

Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

On 11/21/05, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so
> i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
>
> So the question is:
>
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated
>
> as well as:
>
> - who will participate (in translation)

I have no so many free time but I could organize (I hope) in VnOSS
community for vietnamese translation of ConTeXt's manuals.

Regards,
--
http://vnoss.org
Vietnamese Open Source Software Community

Re: beginners manual

[Olivier]

Quoting  "Hans Hagen" :
> -- was pragma@wxs.nl on Nov 21, 2005 at 11:03:49 --

> as well as:
> 
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)

I'll be glad to help for the french translation.

By the way, what about the translation of the context core?

Olivier

Re: beginners manual

[Jose Antonio Rodriguez]

A las 23:03 del lun 21 nov, Hans Hagen tuvo a bien escribir:
> 
> as well as:
> 
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)
> 

I'd like to contribute with the spanish translation

-- 
José Antonio Rodríguez
jar@eideia.net
------------------------
'El Fuego vive en los corazones de quienes aman el futuro' (Agni Yoga)

Re: beginners manual

[Mikael Persson]

I could think of translating to swedish. Depends on how much work it
is and about if it must be done before that or that day. I got pretty
much to do at work...

/Micke P

On 11/21/05, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so
> i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
>
> So the question is:
>
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated
>
> as well as:
>
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)
>
> Hans
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>

Re: beginners manual

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi,

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so 
> i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
> 
> So the question is:

Here is my 2 cents (numbers refer to the sections).

> - what can go out

  \setupsectionblock  (4)
  \indenting (34)
  twoletter language shortcuts (37)

> - what should go in

   \mainlanguage
   endnotes
   environments
   arranging&papersize
   quotes&quotations&narrower
   forms
   overlays
   typescripts
   regimes
   encodings?
   columnsets?
   natural tables?

> - what should be updated

   special characters: explain e.g. \{ and \[ (3)
   rename Headers => Sectioning or Structure (5)
   perhaps TABLE gets to much attention (11)
   rename Definitions => Descriptions (15,16)
   comments should be explained earlier (37)
   modules (38)

Cheers, Taco

Re: beginners manual

[Tobias Burnus]

Hi,

Taco Hoekwater wrote:
>   special characters: explain e.g. \{ and \[ (3)
That brings me to a thing I miss a lot. My LaTeX book had in the end a 
few pages with special characters, which is the main reason I still look 
in it.

I'd like to see - preferably at the last pages of the manual so one 
finds them quickly in the printed version:
- somewhere: -, --, ---, |-| etc.
- somewhere: \/ (German example: Auf\/lage) to prevent the ligature
- \dots
- How to enter: $ & % # { } \ (esp. the "\")
- text mode accents
  \'o \type{\'o}  (maybe mention \oaccute as well?)
  \SS\ \type{\SS}
and text mode symbols \copyright, \S, ...
- mention that for different languages some additional methods exists 
(e.g. de "u -> ü, "s -> ß; or for Greek; or ...)
- mathematical input
  Math accents
  Greek
  Symbols
  Maybe also AMS Symbols

In short I mean basically the following tables from "\LATEX 
Kurzbeschreibung"
(http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/lshort/german/l2kurz.pdf):
- Page 19, Table 4 (accents and special letters) and Table 5 (symbols)
- page 32ff, Table 6 (math accents), Table 7 (small Greek letters), 
Table 8 (capital Greek letters), Table 9 (further symbols), Table 10 
("big" operators), Table 11 (binary operators), Table 12 (relations), 
Table 13 (negated relations), Table 14 (arrows) and Table 15 (braces)

Tobias

Re: beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

Olivier wrote:

>By the way, what about the translation of the context core?
>  
>
all we need is additional entries in the mult-com and mult-con files

Hans

Re: beginners manual

[Mojca Miklavec]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so
> i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
>
> So the question is:
>
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated

31.2. \showbodyfont[cmr]
32.2. has to be rewritten I guess (write something about
\enableregime[utf-8] and something about encodings)
38 (using modules): to be rewritten
C (auxilary files): mention texutil --purge[all]

What could be added:
- Tables: Natural tables (already mentioned by Taco). I just realized
that this is the only manual where the "usual" tables are actually
explained. I was looking for the explanation in cont-eni before.
- Bibliography
- Slides: some basic example with \usemodule[pre-whatever] to show the
user that making slides is no more difficult than making an A4
document
- Metafun: some basic examples and a reference to the manual
- XML: a basic example
- mention XeTeX & Aleph somewhere (at least under section with fonts
or lnguage-specific issues)

> as well as:
>
> - who will participate (in translation)

Slovenian translation is not rentable yet :(

> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)

Not a bad idea. Encodings, regimes, \mainlanguage, using different
interface, French "active characters", quotations, Greek, Vietnamese,
Russian, ... under the same hood.

Mojca

Re: beginners manual - Install

[Miguel Queiros]

Hi!

> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so 
> i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
> 
> So the question is:
> 
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated
> 
> as well as:
> 
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)

As a beginner myself and typesetting in Portuguese I can tell
you what I had troubles with:

- mainlanguage
- Special characters as º (\ordmasculine and stuff like that).

And maybe not in the beginners manual but I think there
should be an updated manual about how to install context.

I'm still using a context version from 2004.08 as it is the
only one it worked for me. I downloaded as far as I remember 
the file mswincontext.zip , the stand alone version of
context, but the newer versions need Perl and Ruby to
be installed. 

By the way... Are there any sugestions on the installation
of Ruby and Perl on windows ? 

I think there should be some instructions
on how to install mswincontex.zip on any system, because the
dificulty in installing Context might drive some users away.

Anyway... Context is great ! I'm now typesetting my first
document with it. :)

Thank you,
Miguel Queirós

Re: beginners manual - Install

[Wolfgang Zillig]

Miguel Queiros schrieb:

>Hi!
>
>  
>
>>I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so 
>>i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
>>
>>So the question is:
>>
>>- what can go out
>>- what should go in
>>- what should be updated
>>
>>as well as:
>>
>>- who will participate (in translation)
>>- how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)
>>    
>>
>
>As a beginner myself and typesetting in Portuguese I can tell
>you what I had troubles with:
>
>- mainlanguage
>- Special characters as º (\ordmasculine and stuff like that).
>
>And maybe not in the beginners manual but I think there
>should be an updated manual about how to install context.
>
>I'm still using a context version from 2004.08 as it is the
>only one it worked for me. I downloaded as far as I remember 
>the file mswincontext.zip , the stand alone version of
>context, but the newer versions need Perl and Ruby to
>be installed. 
>
>  
>

>By the way... Are there any sugestions on the installation
>of Ruby and Perl on windows ? 
>
>  
>
http://www.activestate.com/   they provide avtivepearl. It's no problem 
to install it.

http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ there you get ruby. They provide a link to 
the "one click ruby installer" which you will find here:
http://rubyinstaller.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl  there is the

after installing you should check if the *.exe of perl and ruby is in 
the default path. you can easily check in the command line by
    calling ruby --version
    and
    perl --version

To get the context scripts running they should also be in the default 
path (this given path is valid for my miktex installation, you probably 
have to change it)!
    C:\texmf\scripts\context\perl
    C:\texmf\scripts\context\ruby

I had to add them manually.

Regards

Wolfgang

Re: beginners manual

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Hans,

Thank you for your great work.
Regarding the beginners manual your are going to update, I have two  
or three suggestions.
To begin with, I think we should designate a volunteer group of  
people on this list to do some tasks in "parallel":

1) Since the installation of ConTeXt seems to be not so easy for  
everyone, we should have at least three subgroups of people  
experimenting, and then explaining, how to install and update ConTeXt  
on Linux, Windows, MacOS X.
Once each subgroup has carried out the experimentation of the "How  
to..." instructions, they would send them to you so that you can  
include them in the Beginners Manual (abbreviated BM in the sequel...).
It is important to include in each subgroup a "wizard" and an  
"amateur beginner": otherwise the "How to..." instructions may result  
in something not really usable by real beginners.
For my part I am volunteering to be a (rather dumb...) beginner  
regarding installation on MacOS X, and its use with XeTeX.
The same observation applies for the use of ConTeXt with non roman  
languages under various operating systems.

2) We should divide the BM in $n$ parts ($n \geq 2$... but maybe $n=10 
$) and designate one or two individuals for each part to test ALL the  
codes and examples you give in the BM to make sure that they work  
fine with a "basic" install of ConTeXt.

3) Two great features of ConTeXt are its versatility regarding  
Metapost and presentations. In the BM these features should be  
presented in a transparent way, since most beginners would not have  
the patience or the technical knowledge of going through the source  
files.

Best regards: OK

On 21 nov. 2005, at 23:03, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source  
> code) so i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation'  
> thread
>
> So the question is:
>
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated
>
> as well as:
>
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related  
> chapters)
>
> Hans
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context

Re: beginners manual

[Johan Sandblom]

I could help with this translation to Swedish, although I of course
also have time constraints.
Half the work and twice the fun!

Johan

2005/11/22, Mikael Persson <mickep@gmail.com>:
> I could think of translating to swedish. Depends on how much work it
> is and about if it must be done before that or that day. I got pretty
> much to do at work...
>
> /Micke P
>
> On 11/21/05, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) so
> > i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
> >
> > So the question is:
> >
> > - what can go out
> > - what should go in
> > - what should be updated
> >
> > as well as:
> >
> > - who will participate (in translation)
> > - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)
> >
> > Hans
> > _______________________________________________
> > ntg-context mailing list
> > ntg-context@ntg.nl
> > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> >
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>


--
Johan Sandblom  N8, MRC, Karolinska sjh
t +46851776108  17176 Stockholm
m +46735521477  Sweden
"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the
will to find out, which is the exact opposite"
- Bertrand Russell

Re: beginners manual

[Otared KAVIAN]

Hi Hans,

Thank you for your great work.
Regarding the beginners manual your are going to update, I have two
or three suggestions.
To begin with, I think we should designate a volunteer group of
people on this list to do some tasks in "parallel":

1) Since the installation of ConTeXt seems to be not so easy for
everyone, we should have at least three subgroups of people
experimenting, and then explaining, how to install and update ConTeXt
on Linux, Windows, MacOS X.
Once each subgroup has carried out the experimentation of the "How
to..." instructions, they would send them to you so that you can
include them in the Beginners Manual (abbreviated BM in the sequel...).
It is important to include in each subgroup a "wizard" and an
"amateur beginner": otherwise the "How to..." instructions may result
in something not really usable by real beginners.
For my part I am volunteering to be a (rather dumb...) beginner
regarding installation on MacOS X, and its use with XeTeX.
The same observation applies for the use of ConTeXt with non roman
languages under various operating systems.

2) We should divide the BM in $n$ parts ($n \geq 2$... but maybe $n=10
$) and designate one or two individuals for each part to test ALL the
codes and examples you give in the BM to make sure that they work
fine with a "basic" install of ConTeXt.

3) Two great features of ConTeXt are its versatility regarding
Metapost and presentations. In the BM these features should be
presented in a transparent way, since most beginners would not have
the patience or the technical knowledge of going through the source
files.

Best regards: OK

On 21 nov. 2005, at 23:03, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source
> code) so i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation'
> thread
>
> So the question is:
>
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated
>
> as well as:
>
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related
> chapters)
>
> Hans

Re: beginners manual

[Maurice Diamantini (dom)]

Le 23 nov. 05 à 21:15, Mojca Miklavec a écrit :
>
> What could be added:
> - Tables: Natural tables (already mentioned by Taco). I just realized
>   that this is the only manual where the "usual" tables are actually
>   explained. I was looking for the explanation in cont-eni before.
> - Bibliography
> - Slides: some basic example with \usemodule[pre-whatever] to show the
>   user that making slides is no more difficult than making an A4
>   document
> - Metafun: some basic examples and a reference to the manual
> - XML: a basic example

I agree with the above.
And for people comming from LaTeX, it would be nice to see also :
- a basic exemple for creating html from ConTeXt,
- some mathematics

Maurice,

Re: beginners manual - Install

[Miguel Queiros]

> http://www.activestate.com/   they provide avtivepearl. It's no problem 
> to install it.
> 
> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ there you get ruby. They provide a link to 
> the "one click ruby installer" which you will find here:
> http://rubyinstaller.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl  there is the

I'v had downloaded already Perl from activestate, and I believe
I came across the ruby installer you mentioned but didn't installed
it yet...

> after installing you should check if the *.exe of perl and ruby is in 
> the default path. you can easily check in the command line by
>     calling ruby --version
>     and
>     perl --version
> 
> To get the context scripts running they should also be in the default 
> path (this given path is valid for my miktex installation, you probably 
> have to change it)!
>     C:\texmf\scripts\context\perl
>     C:\texmf\scripts\context\ruby
> 
> I had to add them manually.

Thanks for you information... Pragma site also mentions ghostscript,
is it realy needed or only if you want postscripts ?

Once again thank you,
Miguel Queirós

Re: beginners manual

[Xiao Jianfeng]

Hans Hagen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) 
> so i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
>
> So the question is:
>
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated
>
> as well as:
>
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related 
> chapters)
>
> Hans
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>
 I recommend that the original manual in English be kept in the translation.

 I mean that we put the translation of each paragraph just after the 
English version, so people can refer to the original manual easily when 
they don't fully understand the translation. I've seen a Chinese 
translation of python manual in this manner, which I think if great for 
me. Just like this:

[......paragraph one..............English version.................]

[......paragraph one..............translated version..............]

[......paragraph two..............English version.................]

[......paragraph two..............translated version..............]

.........

.........

[......the last paragraph ..............English version.................]

[......the last paragraph ..............translated version..............]

Hope my bad English didn't confuse anyone.


Regards,

xiaojf

Re: beginners manual

[Wolfgang Zillig]

Maurice Diamantini (dom) schrieb:

>
> Le 23 nov. 05 à 21:15, Mojca Miklavec a écrit :
>
>>
>> What could be added:
>> - Tables: Natural tables (already mentioned by Taco). I just realized
>>   that this is the only manual where the "usual" tables are actually
>>   explained. I was looking for the explanation in cont-eni before.
>> - Bibliography
>> - Slides: some basic example with \usemodule[pre-whatever] to show the
>>   user that making slides is no more difficult than making an A4
>>   document
>> - Metafun: some basic examples and a reference to the manual
>> - XML: a basic example
>
>
> I agree with the above.
> And for people comming from LaTeX, it would be nice to see also :
> - a basic exemple for creating html from ConTeXt,

I would argument that it is easyer to create ConTeXt from a propper 
XML/XHTML source! But as it is the beginner manual a reference to the 
XML manual should be enough.

> - some mathematics

not really a big problem, but you have the choice also to use MathML.

Wolfgang

Re: beginners manual

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hi,

this is a follow-up to the first message... Are you (Hans) collecting the
sugesstions from this thread or should they be wikified?


Patrick
-- 
ConTeXt wiki and more: http://contextgarden.net

Re: beginners manual (xml input versus html output)

[Maurice Diamantini]

Le 25 nov. 05 à 10:47, Wolfgang Zillig a écrit :

> Maurice Diamantini (dom) schrieb:
>> And for people comming from LaTeX, it would be nice to see also :
>> - a basic exemple for creating html from ConTeXt,
>
> I would argument that it is easyer to create ConTeXt from a propper
> XML/XHTML source! But as it is the beginner manual a reference to
> the XML manual should be enough.
>
>> - some mathematics
>
> not really a big problem, but you have the choice also to use MathML.

This is always the same  difference of opinion :

- Some people like to see the only input format to be xml (write xml for
   math, ...) and think *TeX as one of the output formats (as for
   pdf, xhtml, ps...).

- Other poeple (specialy those coming from TeX community) prefere
   writing by hand (yes it does yet exists !) some readable and lite  
document
   with math formula or other, then convert then as pdf printable
   output and (if possible also some (x)?html resizable ouput format

But perhaps I doesn't understand ConTeXt xml features. Perhaps
context is able to generate xml files instead of only reading them?
If it is the case, then let me know, as it could solve the html  
navigator
problem. So I'll have to learn more about xm and xml styles?

Maurice

Re: beginners manual

[Xiao Jianfeng]

Hans Hagen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual (at least the source code) 
> so i think this s a good moment to pick up the 'translation' thread
>
> So the question is:
>
> - what can go out
> - what should go in
> - what should be updated
>
> as well as:
>
> - who will participate (in translation)
> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related 
> chapters)
>
> Hans
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>
I can do some work with the Chinese translation if there is no other 
people going to take this job.

One thing I have to mention is that I'm not good at ConTeXting, and I 
don't have too much time either,
it will probably take a little long time for me to translate the whole 
manual. But I can promise that
I will try my best to do a good job if I take the job.

Regards,

xiaojf

Re: Re: beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:

>Hi,
>
>this is a follow-up to the first message... Are you (Hans) collecting the
>sugesstions from this thread or should they be wikified?
>
>  
>
it sounds like a good idea to wiki them (currently i print them -)

Hans

Re: Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

On 25 Nov 2005 14:10:14 +0100, Patrick Gundlach <patrick@gundla.ch> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> this is a follow-up to the first message... Are you (Hans) collecting the
> sugesstions from this thread or should they be wikified?

\startOT
I love the verb "wikify" :-)
\stopOT

Re: beginners manual

[Mari Voipio]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> I'm going to clean up the beginners manual

Yippee! :-)
Having read one printout to shreds I really appreciate this...


> - what should go in

As has been suggested here to an extent, there should be attachments (or 
separate smaller manuals) on how to install and update ConTeXt in 
different operating systems (Mac OS 10.4 was a breeze even for a new Mac 
user, Windows is a great pain in the butt every time; still running 
TeXLive 2004 ConTeXt on this machine because I can't afford to break 
anything). As I probably should do it for work anyway, I'm willing to 
write the part for MsWinConTeXt (for Win 2000/XP) as long as I get at 
least until the end of the year.

I also suggest writing a separate set of instructions for those people 
who migrate from LaTeX (like my brother did) and for those who migrate 
from MSWord (like I did) or Apple's Pages (or similar word processing 
software). I strongly feel that the beginners' manual per se should be 
for ALL beginners and shouldn't refer to either Word or LaTeX.
Again, as I probably have to write it at some point anyway, I'm willing 
to chip in for the MS Word part and I might even be able to write a 
draft for others to fill in with.


> - what should be updated

Tables is what would be really useful. This far I've only used tabulate 
and \table, but I have a faint idea that "natural tables" would be the 
real solution to my problems - but finding info on them has been so 
challenging that I've given up this far.

I also personally feel that a totally different approach to the fonts 
chapter would make my life a lot easier. I'm sure this partly relates to 
my Windows background, but for example the term "font family" was 
totally alien to me when I started using ConTeXt.
And of course, much of the first weeks with ConTeXt (in Windows) were 
overshadowed by the important question of "how to make the fonts and 
font switches work at all". I still don't understand the system at all, 
so even though I've successfully gotten a few of the TeXLive fonts to 
work, I always have to refer to my older ConTeXt documents to copy the 
code that has worked at least at some stage.
[In Word, you switch the font of the Normal style from Times New Roman 
to Century Schoolbook with about three clicks of the mouse - in ConTeXt 
the same may be a three-hour or three-day operation, at least with my 
not-even-intermediate skills... I love ConTeXt, I hate fonts.]

The order of things in the beginners' manual has often frustrated me as 
I feel that "same stuff" is split in different places all over manual. I 
have not dealt with math, but when I taught word processing with Word, 
these would be things that come up in the very, very beginning:

- how to change the font (family, size, emphasis)
- how to change the paragraph (line spacing, paragraph spacing, indents, 
alignment)
- how to print preview i.e. see the document as laid out on paper (in 
ConTeXt this would be "how to compile and view; maybe put more detailed 
instructions into the ConTeXt in Unix/Linux/Mac/Windows 
attachment/manual and just refer to these)
- how to change the margins [I had REAL problems with this in ConTeXt, 
the whole context is so different; but this should probably go into the 
"ConTeXt for word processor users" chapter]
[- how to save and retrieve a document; not really an issue with 
ConTeXt, I suspect all users are this much computer literate]


Next step is often additional text features:
- headings (in Word, "header" is only top part of page, the 
section/chapter titles are called headings)
- lists (i.e. itemize in ConTeXt)
- page numbers (many Word users never use their header/footer for 
anything else!)
- page breaking
- hyphenation

And, as many people migrate to ConTeXt when having to deal with large 
documents and/or math, the next step for many would probably be:
- figures (i.e. graphics)
- tables
- footnotes
- header & footer
- formulae, units, math otherwise
- special characters!
- registers, references
- interactivity?


If ConTeXt comes nowadays with modules, those should probably get a more 
prominent position in the manual and obviously a lot more detailed 
explanation than the current one. If I've understood the concept 
correctly, the modules are comparable to Word templates, but this far 
the information has been so split that I haven't bothered to piece it 
together to actually even try to use a module, not to talk about making 
one (although that bit probably belongs to the big manual).


> - who will participate (in translation)

I can do Finnish, it shouldn't take that long once the English original 
is ready. A bunch of LaTeX stuff exists in Finnish and that should help 
with the terminology (should probably try to stick to existing stuff) 
and I can possibly enlist brother to review what I've done, if there're 
no other Finnish speakers on this list.
I'll also be quite happy to proof the Swedish manual but as there are 
native speakers of Swedish on this list, I'd rather leave the actual 
translation work to them (especially when I use Swedish as spoken in 
Finland, which sometimes makes a difference).


> - how to deal with localization (maybe dedicated language related chapters)

Yes, definitely. Having now worked with translations of originally 
English ConTeXt document to German and Spanish I've had to look for 
answers for the following problems:
- hyphenation (how to turn it on and how to prevent it)
- labels in captions and references
   (how to switch language, how to adjust)
- regiments
- character sets (especially non-Latin stuff)
- punctuation rules (for example one vs. two spaces after period)

Sometimes I'd really, really love to have a list of what characters and 
languages ConTeXt is/is not capable of coping with, just a quick 
reference would help...


A few thoughts from the Windows front,

Mari

Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

On 11/28/05, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
> so for vietnamese you need another encoding.
>
> (i added language modes, so we can now do for vietnamese):
>
> \startmode[*vn]
>     \enableregime[utf]
>     \setupencoding[default=t5]
> \stopmode
>
> \startnotmode[atpragma]
>
>     \usetypescriptfile[type-buy]
>     \usetypescript[palatino][\defaultencoding]
>     \setupbodyfont[palatino,10pt]
>
> \stopnotmode
>
> (in ma-cb-style.tex)
>
> can you test that?
>

It does not work :(

...
(/work/apps/teTeX/share/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-buy.tex))kpathsea:
Running mktextfm uplr8t
mktextfm: Running mf-nowin -progname=mf \mode:=ljfive; mag:=1;
nonstopmode; input uplr8t
This is METAFONT, Version 2.71828 (Web2C 7.5.4)

kpathsea: Running mktexmf uplr8t
! I can't find file `uplr8t'.
<*> ...:=ljfive; mag:=1; nonstopmode; input uplr8t

Please type another input file name
! Emergency stop.
<*> ...:=ljfive; mag:=1; nonstopmode; input uplr8t

Transcript written on mfput.log.
grep: uplr8t.log: No such file or directory
mktextfm: `mf-nowin -progname=mf \mode:=ljfive; mag:=1; nonstopmode;
input uplr8t' failed to make uplr8t.tfm.
kpathsea: Appending font creation commands to missfont.log.

! Font \*palatino12ptrmtf*:=uplr8t at 12.0pt not loadable: Metric (TFM) file no
t found.
<to be read again>
                   \relax
\xxdododefinefont ...tspec {#4}\newfontidentifier
                                                  \let \localrelativefontsiz...

\fontstrategy ...me \fontclass #2#3#4#5\endcsname
                                                  \tryingfontfalse \fi
<inserted text> ...yle \fontalternative \fontsize
                                                  \fi \iftryingfont \fontstr...

\synchronizefont ...strategy \the \fontstrategies
                                                  \relax \fi \iftryingfont \...
<argument> \getvalue {\@style@ \fontstyle }
                                           \edef \fontstyle {\fontstyle }\if...
...
l.73    \setupbodyfont[palatino,12pt]

? x

But when I try:

\startnotmode[atpragma]
   \enableregime[utf]
   \setupencoding[default=t5]
  \usetypescript[berry][\defaultencoding]
  %\usetypescriptfile[type-buy]
  \usetypescript[palatino][\defaultencoding]
  \setupbodyfont[palatino,10pt]
\stopnotmode

It's OK.

Thanks,

--
http://vnoss.org
Vietnamese Open Source Software Community

Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

On 11/28/05, Mari Voipio <mari.voipio@iki.fi> wrote:

> finding anything on Pragma website (*never* install newer Acrobat Reader
> on a Windows that already has an older full Acrobat...).

\startOT
At work, I have Acrobat 5.0 (full) + Acrobat Reader 7.x => work perfectly :-)
\stopOT

Re: beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

Mari Voipio wrote:

> Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>> I 'reorganized' (split) the beginners manual and put it in svn, so 
>> anyone who is willing to translate can check out a copy.
>
>
> OK, I'm either out of the loop (had off-the-Internet holiday) or just 
> a dummy Windows user, but the above doesn't really parse here so 
> cannot even get started...
>
> I've used CVS, but SVN is totally new for me (although I've seen it 
> mentioned here once or twice) - so if anyone has recommendations for 
> what client/program to use in Windows (2000/XP) and Mac OS 10.4, I'd 
> be very interested. And a URL or other directions towards the SVN 
> server (or whatever it is) would be appreciated; my work computer 
> isn't very cooperative with online pdf pages, so I've got real 
> problems with finding anything on Pragma website (*never* install 
> newer Acrobat Reader on a Windows that already has an older full 
> Acrobat...).


for windows ... google for "tortoise svn"

Hans

Re: beginners manual

[Wolfgang Zillig]

Mari Voipio schrieb:

> Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>> I 'reorganized' (split) the beginners manual and put it in svn, so 
>> anyone who is willing to translate can check out a copy.
>
>
> OK, I'm either out of the loop (had off-the-Internet holiday) or just 
> a dummy Windows user, but the above doesn't really parse here so 
> cannot even get started...
>
> I've used CVS, but SVN is totally new for me (although I've seen it 
> mentioned here once or twice) - so if anyone has recommendations for 
> what client/program to use in Windows (2000/XP) and Mac OS 10.4, I'd 
> be very interested. And a URL or other directions towards the SVN 
> server (or whatever it is) would be appreciated; my work computer 
> isn't very cooperative with online pdf pages, so I've got real 
> problems with finding anything on Pragma website (*never* install 
> newer Acrobat Reader on a Windows that already has an older full 
> Acrobat...).
>
For Win there is tortoiseSVN: http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/  You will 
have to install it.
Then create somewhere a new folder.
Rightclick on that folder and there should "SVN Checkout" available in 
the menu
use this URL svn://ctx.pragma-ade.nl/manuals

When I'm not completely wrong that should be all.

Wolfgang

Re: beginners manual

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi,

The SVN repository is here:

   svn://ctx.pragma-ade.nl/manuals

but that only works when you have subversion client installed.

In the mean time or for people that cannot get subversion running
at all: I have an automatic checkout script that gets called
every hour, and the working directory of that is online as:

   http://context.aanhet.net/svn/

So if you do not mind a lag of 30min \pm 30, you can download/browse
that from your normal internet browser.

Cheers, Taco


Mari Voipio wrote:
> Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
>> I 'reorganized' (split) the beginners manual and put it in svn, so 
>> anyone who is willing to translate can check out a copy.
> 
> 
> OK, I'm either out of the loop (had off-the-Internet holiday) or just a 
> dummy Windows user, but the above doesn't really parse here so cannot 
> even get started...
> 
> I've used CVS, but SVN is totally new for me (although I've seen it 
> mentioned here once or twice) - so if anyone has recommendations for 
> what client/program to use in Windows (2000/XP) and Mac OS 10.4, I'd be 
> very interested. And a URL or other directions towards the SVN server 
> (or whatever it is) would be appreciated; my work computer isn't very 
> cooperative with online pdf pages, so I've got real problems with 
> finding anything on Pragma website (*never* install newer Acrobat Reader 
> on a Windows that already has an older full Acrobat...).
> 
> 
> Feeling really stupid, but grateful for any help
> 
> Mari
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context

Re: beginners manual

[Mari Voipio]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> I 'reorganized' (split) the beginners manual and put it in svn, so 
> anyone who is willing to translate can check out a copy.

OK, I'm either out of the loop (had off-the-Internet holiday) or just a 
dummy Windows user, but the above doesn't really parse here so cannot 
even get started...

I've used CVS, but SVN is totally new for me (although I've seen it 
mentioned here once or twice) - so if anyone has recommendations for 
what client/program to use in Windows (2000/XP) and Mac OS 10.4, I'd be 
very interested. And a URL or other directions towards the SVN server 
(or whatever it is) would be appreciated; my work computer isn't very 
cooperative with online pdf pages, so I've got real problems with 
finding anything on Pragma website (*never* install newer Acrobat Reader 
on a Windows that already has an older full Acrobat...).


Feeling really stupid, but grateful for any help

Mari

Re: beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

VnPenguin wrote:

>On 11/28/05, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>  
>
>>>Thanks, it's ok. But I have to add:
>>>
>>>\usemodule[abr-01]
>>>
>>>into ma-cb-abbreviations.tex in order to fix error \ASCII non defined.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>no, you need a new version of context -)
>>    
>>
>
>Release 2005.11.24 is not ok for this ?
>
>  
>
i patched that at the day i uploaded the manuals to svn -)

Hans

Re: beginners manual

[Vit Zyka]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Vit Zyka wrote:
> 
>> I got unexpected positive responce to idea of beginners manual 
>> translation on Saturday's Czech/Slovak TUG meeting. The small working 
>> group of 5 people was establish there. Nobody but me has context 
>> experience now, but I think it is not a serious drawback for translating.
> 
> i don't know if david antos was present, but he knows his way around 
> context and can be of help (given that he has time)

He was not. Anybody's help will be welcomed, especially David...

Vit

Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

On 11/28/05, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> >Thanks, it's ok. But I have to add:
> >
> >\usemodule[abr-01]
> >
> >into ma-cb-abbreviations.tex in order to fix error \ASCII non defined.
> >
> >
> >
> no, you need a new version of context -)

Release 2005.11.24 is not ok for this ?

Thank you,
--
http://vnoss.org
Vietnamese Open Source Software Community

Re: beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

VnPenguin wrote:

>On 11/26/05, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>VnPenguin wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Just tried to compile:
>>>$ texexec --pdf ma-cb-en
>>>
>>>and I got:
>>>
>>>[skip]
>>>      
>>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Please read the beginning of the "mfont.tex from manuals" thread
>>(http://archive.contextgarden.net). It is the exact same error
>>David Arnold had.
>>    
>>
>
>Thanks, it's ok. But I have to add:
>
>\usemodule[abr-01]
>
>into ma-cb-abbreviations.tex in order to fix error \ASCII non defined.
>
>  
>
no, you need a new version of context -)

when setting this up i decided to add a language system mode (i'll send 
you the file) so that we can let styles adapt to languages

Hans

Re: beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

VnPenguin wrote:

>Hi Hans et al,
>
>Just tried to compile "ma-cb-en" with T5. Here are some remarks:
>
>1. \def\TitlePage#1#2#3 in file "ma-cb-style.tex" does not work with T5.
>Because of
>
>\definedfont[SansBold at 40pt]
>
>I lossed so many vietnamese accented characters. I have to change to
>
>\switchtobodyfont[40pt]\bf
>
>in order to make T5 work. I think the file "ma-cb-style.tex" needs
>more attention for multi-lang support.
>
>  
>
sure, the only thing i did so far is split and reorganize; 

at your place, it runs with:

\startnotmode[atpragma]

    \usetypescriptfile[type-buy]
    \usetypescript[palatino][ec]
    \setupbodyfont[palatino,10pt]

\stopnotmode

so for vietnamese you need another encoding.

(i added language modes, so we can now do for vietnamese):

\startmode[*vn]
    \enableregime[utf]
    \setupencoding[default=t5]
\stopmode

\startnotmode[atpragma]

    \usetypescriptfile[type-buy]
    \usetypescript[palatino][\defaultencoding]
    \setupbodyfont[palatino,10pt]

\stopnotmode

(in ma-cb-style.tex)

can you test that?

>2. In file "ma-cb-en-document.tex" :
>...
>\CONTEXT\ expects a plain \ASCII\ input file. Of course you
>can use any texteditor or wordprocessor you want, but you
>should not forget that \CONTEXT\ can only read \ASCII\
>input. Most texteditors or wordprocessors can export your
>file as plain \ASCII.
>...
>What do you think about a plain text input file in UTF-8 charset ?
>It's not ASCII by definition, but the current ConTeXt (pdfetex) can
>work with it no problem. All my works with ConTeXt are prepared in
>UTF-8 input file.
>
>  
>
sure, no problem for the vn version

Hans

Re: beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

Vit Zyka wrote:

> I got unexpected positive responce to idea of beginners manual 
> translation on Saturday's Czech/Slovak TUG meeting. The small working 
> group of 5 people was establish there. Nobody but me has context 
> experience now, but I think it is not a serious drawback for translating.

i don't know if david antos was present, but he knows his way around 
context and can be of help (given that he has time)

>
> There was an interest (when the work will be finnished) to publish it 
> in the Czechoslovac TeX Bulletin. I find only advantages for ConTeXt 
> to do so, nevertheless I have to ask if such idea is welcomed.
>
sure, no problem

Hans 

Re: beginners manual

[Vit Zyka]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I 'reorganized' (split) the beginners manual and put it in svn, so 
> anyone who is willing to translate can check out a copy. I didn't yet 
> change anything (only the file structure etc) and the styles need a 
> cleanup (more modern setup). Because each chapter now has its own file, 
> we can (as suggested on this list) edit piecewise. Don't start yet. 
> First we need to add/remove things and rewrite chapters. But you can try 
> to compile the file.
> 
> Hans

Hello,

I got unexpected positive responce to idea of beginners manual 
translation on Saturday's Czech/Slovak TUG meeting. The small working 
group of 5 people was establish there. Nobody but me has context 
experience now, but I think it is not a serious drawback for translating.

There was an interest (when the work will be finnished) to publish it in 
the Czechoslovac TeX Bulletin. I find only advantages for ConTeXt to do 
so, nevertheless I have to ask if such idea is welcomed.

Vit

Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

Hi Hans et al,

Just tried to compile "ma-cb-en" with T5. Here are some remarks:

1. \def\TitlePage#1#2#3 in file "ma-cb-style.tex" does not work with T5.
Because of

\definedfont[SansBold at 40pt]

I lossed so many vietnamese accented characters. I have to change to

\switchtobodyfont[40pt]\bf

in order to make T5 work. I think the file "ma-cb-style.tex" needs
more attention for multi-lang support.


2. In file "ma-cb-en-document.tex" :
...
\CONTEXT\ expects a plain \ASCII\ input file. Of course you
can use any texteditor or wordprocessor you want, but you
should not forget that \CONTEXT\ can only read \ASCII\
input. Most texteditors or wordprocessors can export your
file as plain \ASCII.
...
What do you think about a plain text input file in UTF-8 charset ?
It's not ASCII by definition, but the current ConTeXt (pdfetex) can
work with it no problem. All my works with ConTeXt are prepared in
UTF-8 input file.

That's all for now.

Thank you for your work,
Regards,

--
http://vnoss.org
Vietnamese Open Source Software Community

Re: beginners manual

[David Arnold]

Hans, Taco, et al,

It's time for me to wax philosophic on the beginner's manual. I've  
read a few posts to this list, and tried to think back to my  
experience, and looked at my troubles now, but I haven't reread the  
beginner's manual as yet. That I will do in the upcoming weeks.

My first thought is this: In my opinion, the beginner's manual  
remains one of very best sources for Context.

My second thought is the fact that this is a beginner's manual in  
every sense of the word. That is, you need to be very careful with  
what goes into the manual. Truly, a guiding principle should be: What  
does a beginner need to see? Think of a user who is beginning with a  
blank slate, or alternatively, think of a user who's been gone for a  
while (I've qualified for this category on several occasions and  
revisiting the beginner's manual has always been helpful). What does  
this user need to see? And what does this user need to be protected  
from?

First and foremost, you've got to make sure that users on different  
platforms have a good install of Context. This could be a set of  
appendices: Appendix A -- Installation on Windows, Appendix B --  
Installation on Linux, Appendix C -- Installation on Mac OS. Again,  
users could be very helpful in testing these instructions. This is a  
"beginner's manual," so it would be helpful if these instructions  
were of the "Quick Start" variety, as involved instructions will only  
serve to frustrate the beginner. Of course, these instructions should  
include a  "Hello, World!" example in order to test for a valid  
installation.

Whenever I teach a new concept in mathematics, I'm faced with a  
choice of two directions. I can start with the concept, then give  
examples. Or I can do some examples, then discuss the abstraction at  
a higher level. I am constantly forgetting that the second method is  
usually a better choice for my students. For example, suppose that I  
want to show that any multiple of an eigenvector is again an  
eigenvector of a given matrix. I can first prove it in the abstract (A 
(cx)=c(Ax)=c(lx)=l(cx)), then give examples. Alternatively, I can put  
a little 2x2 matrix on the board, find the eigenvectors, then  
demonstrate that multiples of the eigenvectors are again  
eigenvectors. Once the students have the idea, then I can put up the  
abstraction of the general proof. A reference manual is an example of  
the first method, a beginner's manual should follow the second  
method. It's easier, in my opinion, to learn by example, to learn by  
doing.

Topics should be included or excluded based on a guiding principle:  
What does a beginner need to know to get started? It will be tempting  
to include using a different font, or talk about interactive  
documents, etc, but these are advanced topics, which belong in  
separate manuals where space and time will do them justice. Indeed,  
what is truly needed is a separate beginner's manual on interactive  
documents.

Layout really threw me for a loss the first time (and times  
thereafter) I went through the beginner's manual. I was confronted  
with terms (cutspace, backspace) that might be familiar to  
typographers, but I had no clue what they meant. I can remember  
spending countless hours tweaking layout parameters, printing, then  
measuring with a ruler, only to scratch my head when I did not get  
predicted results. To this day, I am still not completely sure what I  
am doing in this area. I think what is needed in the beginner's  
manual is an image similar to Patrick's \ShowLayout result from his t- 
layout module. Secondly, it would be time well spent to build an  
improved \showframe command. Perhaps this even exists, but I am not  
aware of it. It needs to provide accurate measurements, even when  
printed and the rulers come out. Perhaps if a user included the  
\showframe command, a trigger of some sort could change the size of  
the paper that the document is typeset on, with an outline of the  
actual paper size, and the edges, margins, headers, etc, all framed  
and in view, even if they lie outside the actual paper outline.

List users can help to make sure that the manual is free of errors.  
If something doesn't work, this is much more upsetting to a beginner  
than a seasoned user. A seasoned user might say "oh, that's just a  
typo, do this," but a beginner has an entirely different reaction on  
an entirely different emotional level.

Troubleshooting should get some time in the beginner's manual. People  
coming from a Word environment are not going to understand what is  
going on when a compilation halts. Seasoned TeX users know about  
typing h, x, s, e, etc, but people who've never seen TeX before are  
going to freak out. So, some time should be spent on troubleshooting.  
Or, a conscious decision has to be made: Will we assume that all  
beginners in Context have TeX experience?

So, I advise, stick to the basics. Get the user started. Ask yourself  
what a user needs to write a good paper: Title page, abstract, toc,  
index, bibliography, section headers, headers and footers, footnotes,  
labels and references, mathematics (somewhat weak in the current  
manual), tables, figures (including the idea of floats which bothers  
users coming from Word no end), lists, layout, alignment, quotations,  
formating text (bold, italic, slant, verbatim, etc),  defining new  
environments for examples, definitions, theorems, etc., and some  
small macro capability.

Finally, you should certainly provide pointers to advanced documents  
where users can continue their growth.

I hope this helps.

David

Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

On 11/26/05, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> VnPenguin wrote:
> > Just tried to compile:
> > $ texexec --pdf ma-cb-en
> >
> > and I got:
> >
> > [skip]
>
> Hi,
>
> Please read the beginning of the "mfont.tex from manuals" thread
> (http://archive.contextgarden.net). It is the exact same error
> David Arnold had.

Thanks, it's ok. But I have to add:

\usemodule[abr-01]

into ma-cb-abbreviations.tex in order to fix error \ASCII non defined.


Regards,


--
http://vnoss.org
Vietnamese Open Source Software Community

Re: beginners manual

[Taco Hoekwater]

VnPenguin wrote:
> Just tried to compile:
> $ texexec --pdf ma-cb-en
> 
> and I got:
> 
> [skip]

Hi,

Please read the beginning of the "mfont.tex from manuals" thread
(http://archive.contextgarden.net). It is the exact same error
David Arnold had.

Greetings, Taco

Re: beginners manual

[VnPenguin]

On 11/26/05, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I 'reorganized' (split) the beginners manual and put it in svn, so
> anyone who is willing to translate can check out a copy. I didn't yet
> change anything (only the file structure etc) and the styles need a
> cleanup (more modern setup). Because each chapter now has its own file,
> we can (as suggested on this list) edit piecewise. Don't start yet.
> First we need to add/remove things and rewrite chapters. But you can try
> to compile the file.

Just tried to compile:
$ texexec --pdf ma-cb-en

and I got:

[skip]
(/work/apps/teTeX/share/texmf-local/tex/context/base/type-buy.tex))kpathsea:
Running mktextfm uplr8t
mktextfm: Running mf-nowin -progname=mf \mode:=ljfive; mag:=1;
nonstopmode; input uplr8t
This is METAFONT, Version 2.71828 (Web2C 7.5.4)

kpathsea: Running mktexmf uplr8t
! I can't find file `uplr8t'.
<*> ...:=ljfive; mag:=1; nonstopmode; input uplr8t

Please type another input file name
! Emergency stop.
<*> ...:=ljfive; mag:=1; nonstopmode; input uplr8t

Transcript written on mfput.log.
grep: uplr8t.log: No such file or directory
mktextfm: `mf-nowin -progname=mf \mode:=ljfive; mag:=1; nonstopmode;
input uplr8t' failed to make uplr8t.tfm.
kpathsea: Appending font creation commands to missfont.log.

! Font \*palatino12ptrmtf*:=uplr8t at 12.0pt not loadable: Metric (TFM) file no
t found.
<to be read again>
                   \relax
\xxdododefinefont ...tspec {#4}\newfontidentifier
                                                  \let \localrelativefontsiz...

\fontstrategy ...me \fontclass #2#3#4#5\endcsname
                                                  \tryingfontfalse \fi
<inserted text> ...yle \fontalternative \fontsize
                                                  \fi \iftryingfont \fontstr...

\synchronizefont ...strategy \the \fontstrategies
                                                  \relax \fi \iftryingfont \...
<argument> \getvalue {\@style@ \fontstyle }
                                           \edef \fontstyle {\fontstyle }\if...
...
l.65     \setupbodyfont[palatino,10pt]
?
------------ end --------------------------------------------
My ConTeXt:
$ texexec --version

 TeXExec 5.4.3 - ConTeXt / PRAGMA ADE 1997-2005

               texexec : TeXExec 5.4.3 - ConTeXt / PRAGMA ADE 1997-2005
               texutil : TeXUtil 9.0.0 - ConTeXt / PRAGMA ADE 1992-2004
                   tex : pdfeTeX, 3.141592-1.30.4-2.2 (Web2C 7.5.5)
               context : ver: 2005.11.24
               cont-en : ver: 2005.11.24  fmt: 2005.11.24  mes: english

        total run time : 1 seconds

I'm wrong my compiling command ?

Thank you,
--
http://vnoss.org
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beginners manual

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

I 'reorganized' (split) the beginners manual and put it in svn, so 
anyone who is willing to translate can check out a copy. I didn't yet 
change anything (only the file structure etc) and the styles need a 
cleanup (more modern setup). Because each chapter now has its own file, 
we can (as suggested on this list) edit piecewise. Don't start yet. 
First we need to add/remove things and rewrite chapters. But you can try 
to compile the file.

Hans