CSRoman again

CSRoman again

[Michal Kvasnička]

Good evening.

I've spent some time experimenting with LatinModern font. After all I 
was able to use it, but I found I hate it.
1) The have accents positioned in a ugly way (or at least, in a way not 
common in the Czech typesetting)
2) Some accents do no work, for instance \"o (at least this doesn't work:
    \loadmapfile[psclean.map]
    \enableregime[il2]
    ...
    B\"ohm-Bawerk

Is there some way to get privately back to CS-Modern fonts? It seems 
these fonts are redefined to Latin Modern, so I can't use them. Please help.

Your thankful
Michal Kvasnicka

Re: CSRoman again

[Hans Hagen]

Hi

> I've spent some time experimenting with LatinModern font. After all I 
> was able to use it, but I found I hate it.
> 1) The have accents positioned in a ugly way (or at least, in a way 
> not common in the Czech typesetting)
> 2) Some accents do no work, for instance \"o (at least this doesn't work:
>    \loadmapfile[psclean.map]

don't use that one, context will load map files for you (like il2-.....)

it looks like you load the wrong map file

>
>    \enableregime[il2]
>    ...
>    B\"ohm-Bawerk
>
> Is there some way to get privately back to CS-Modern fonts? It seems 
> these fonts are redefined to Latin Modern, so I can't use them. Please 
> help.

you can take a look at type-old.tex, and copy the relevant mapping 
(il2)to a local typeface file and load that one (as long as you make 
sure that the definitions are seen last)

another option is to use a private map file (or a file with 
\pdfmaplines) that map the latin modern fonts to csr fonts (maybe a 
better options; the metrics that tex uses are the same anyway)

anyhow, a few remarks:

- at the last bachotek there was a talk about czech type design and one 
of the remarks was that fo rmany fonts this whole accent business was 
more a matter of taste than of quality (i will not quote the speaker on 
czech typesetting tradition here-)
- if one goes open type (some day soon for tex) one has to live with 
some general design (consistent positioning among a large range)
- computer modern was never designed with all those accented characters 
in mind, and it will probably never look real great (plr, csr, vnr all 
look kin dof bad unless printed on high resolutions)
- as far as i've heard, there will be some compromis cooked up for cs in 
the next release of lm, and afaik after that the majority of cstug will 
adopt the font, so in the end ....
- csr is a rather limited font since it only implements a small subset 
of il2 (same for pl0 which also implements a subset; such subsets are a 
nightmare for tex developers and stand in the way for future tex's, this 
is why the lm project was started ... we need to survive)

- just curious: do you always use cm fonts? there are other fonts with 
math nowadays

Hans

Re: CSRoman again

[Vit Zyka]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Hi
> 
>> I've spent some time experimenting with LatinModern font. After all I 
>> was able to use it, but I found I hate it.
>> 1) The have accents positioned in a ugly way (or at least, in a way 
>> not common in the Czech typesetting)

Do you have the current version - 0.99.3?

>> 2) Some accents do no work, for instance \"o (at least this doesn't work:
>>    \loadmapfile[psclean.map]
> 
> 
> don't use that one, context will load map files for you (like il2-.....)
> 
> it looks like you load the wrong map file
> 
>>
>>    \enableregime[il2]
>>    ...
>>    B\"ohm-Bawerk
>>
>> Is there some way to get privately back to CS-Modern fonts? It seems 
>> these fonts are redefined to Latin Modern, so I can't use them. Please 
>> help.
> 
> 
> you can take a look at type-old.tex, and copy the relevant mapping 
> (il2)to a local typeface file and load that one (as long as you make 
> sure that the definitions are seen last)
> 
> another option is to use a private map file (or a file with 
> \pdfmaplines) that map the latin modern fonts to csr fonts (maybe a 
> better options; the metrics that tex uses are the same anyway)
> 
> anyhow, a few remarks:
> 
> - at the last bachotek there was a talk about czech type design and one 
> of the remarks was that fo rmany fonts this whole accent business was 
> more a matter of taste than of quality (i will not quote the speaker on 
> czech typesetting tradition here-)

Probably Karel Horak. There was done big improvements since this time 
(spring 2005). So I have to support Hans's opinion.

There was a HUGE discussion on the Czech TeX list before and during 
Boguslaw's lecture in Brno (nov 2005). The result was:
- LM is suitable for Czech typesetting despite of some minor compromises 
followed from multinational typesetting.
- Boguslaw admited some minor bugs in LM and promised to fix them. He 
also carried out many notes and proof sheets.
- LM is much more consistent over the whole CM family.
- CS Type1 has many bugs in accents (nearly in any non csr10 font).

Vit

> - if one goes open type (some day soon for tex) one has to live with 
> some general design (consistent positioning among a large range)
> - computer modern was never designed with all those accented characters 
> in mind, and it will probably never look real great (plr, csr, vnr all 
> look kin dof bad unless printed on high resolutions)
> - as far as i've heard, there will be some compromis cooked up for cs in 
> the next release of lm, and afaik after that the majority of cstug will 
> adopt the font, so in the end ....
> - csr is a rather limited font since it only implements a small subset 
> of il2 (same for pl0 which also implements a subset; such subsets are a 
> nightmare for tex developers and stand in the way for future tex's, this 
> is why the lm project was started ... we need to survive)
> 
> - just curious: do you always use cm fonts? there are other fonts with 
> math nowadays
> 
> Hans
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context

Re: CSRoman again

[Michal Kvasnička]

Good afternoon.

Many thanks for your answer.
Hans Hagen wrote:

>> 2) Some accents do no work, for instance \"o (at least this doesn't 
>> work:
>>    \loadmapfile[psclean.map]
>
> don't use that one, context will load map files for you (like il2-.....)

Hm. It doesn't. I have to play a little with the distribution. teTeX 3.0 
is much different from the old one, so it's possible I do some stupid 
things.

> - at the last bachotek there was a talk about czech type design and 
> one of the remarks was that fo rmany fonts this whole accent business 
> was more a matter of taste than of quality (i will not quote the 
> speaker on czech typesetting tradition here-)

Yes, it's about tastes. But I strongly do not like Latin Modern, 
especially iacute in sans bold. :-) Simply, I'm used to CS fonts. :-) 
And perhaps Latin Modern will be improved in the nearest future. I'll 
try to get used to it.

> - just curious: do you always use cm fonts? there are other fonts with 
> math nowadays

Well, I teach four different courses and I try to typeset documents for 
each course with a different font: Microeconomics with Computer Modern 
(CS fonts in Type1), Neoclassical Macro with Palatino (URW Palatino + 
math glyphs from pxfonts), Monetary Economics with Concrete (CM Super in 
Type 1 + math glyps in Metafont), and New Institutional Economics with 
Times (URW Times + math glyphs from txfonts). Are there more free fonts 
with math support? Other documents (with no math) I typeset with more fonts.

Many thanks once more. I wish you and the rest of the folk at this 
mailing list Merry Christmass and Happy New Year Eve.
Michal Kvasnicka

Re: CSRoman again

[Hans Hagen]

Hi Michal

> Hm. It doesn't. I have to play a little with the distribution. teTeX 
> 3.0 is much different from the old one, so it's possible I do some 
> stupid things.

map file support keeps changing, which is why i prefer runtime  loading

>
>> - at the last bachotek there was a talk about czech type design and 
>> one of the remarks was that fo rmany fonts this whole accent business 
>> was more a matter of taste than of quality (i will not quote the 
>> speaker on czech typesetting tradition here-)
>
>
> Yes, it's about tastes. But I strongly do not like Latin Modern, 
> especially iacute in sans bold. :-) Simply, I'm used to CS fonts. :-) 
> And perhaps Latin Modern will be improved in the nearest future. I'll 
> try to get used to it.

well, the computer sans is no beauty anyway, certainly not for much text -)

>
>> - just curious: do you always use cm fonts? there are other fonts 
>> with math nowadays
>
>
> Well, I teach four different courses and I try to typeset documents 
> for each course with a different font: Microeconomics with Computer 
> Modern (CS fonts in Type1), Neoclassical Macro with Palatino (URW 
> Palatino + math glyphs from pxfonts), Monetary Economics with Concrete 
> (CM Super in Type 1 + math glyps in Metafont), and New Institutional 
> Economics with Times (URW Times + math glyphs from txfonts). Are there 
> more free fonts with math support? Other documents (with no math) I 
> typeset with more fonts.

there is now also iwona (sansish) with math (antykwa is a not really for 
big docs, more for display)
another nice alternative is utopia (with fourier)

these are all on tex live (well, i say that with crossed fingers)

Hans