how to produce text with facing translation?

how to produce text with facing translation?

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hi all,

I think I remember some of you already had experience with this, and  
I'd be grateful for a few hints that can get me started: as a  
textbook for a class I'm teaching, I want a booklet that will have  
Greek text with facing German or English translation. For the setup,  
I was thinking of
\setuppapersize[A5][A4]

\setuparranging[2*2]

What would be the best way to achieve this? A few requirements:

1. The left-hand pages will have the Greek text, the right-hand pages  
the German translation.

2. In general, the German translation will be somehwat longer than  
the original, so I need to be able to insert manual breakpoints, but  
I want these breakpoints to occur in midparagraph so the last line of  
the page isn't truncated.

3. Would it be possible to have two sets of footnotes, one for the  
text, one for the translation?

4. I guess that I'll need to use a grid to make ligns align, right?

Any help, as always, will be appreciated.

Best

Thomas

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[David Rogers]

On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:37:47 +0100, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

> 3. Would it be possible to have two sets of footnotes, one for the  
> text, one for the translation?

Just a few messages ago on the list was an answer to "Multiple Footnote 
Threads" - I think that one might solve this item.

David

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Mar 2, 2006, at 5:41 PM, David Rogers wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 11:37:47 +0100, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>
>> 3. Would it be possible to have two sets of footnotes, one for the
>> text, one for the translation?
>
> Just a few messages ago on the list was an answer to "Multiple  
> Footnote
> Threads" - I think that one might solve this item.
>
> David

Thanks, David, this is indeed the case, and I just wasn't paying  
attention. Unfortunately, that's the least of the problems... I just  
saw that about a year ago, there was a similar question on the list.  
Here's what Hans wrote in April 2005:

> i played with dual streams a bit yesterday but have no time to  
> explore it now;
> it's a tricky business and much depends on what the input / output  
> is to be
>
> it is doable to develop a framework for this, but only when you and  
> others first
> come up with some decent spec (what kind of input, what kind of  
> sync, what kind
> of content, how to handle floats, etc)
>
> Hans

Several other members said they were interested too. So could you  
give us a hint how this can be achieved? Could we start from  
something very simple and then move on to more advanced features? For  
the time being, I don't need any floats etc., just basic texts on  
both sides with footnotes and the possibility to give breakpoints on  
the recto side.

Optimistically

Thomas

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[David Rogers]

On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 12:45:56 +0100, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> 
> Several other members said they were interested too. So could you  
> give us a hint how this can be achieved? Could we start from  
> something very simple and then move on to more advanced features? For  
> the time being, I don't need any floats etc., just basic texts on  
> both sides with footnotes and the possibility to give breakpoints on  
> the recto side.

I see what you're saying. I have no idea. Sorry to get hopes up over 
nothing.

David

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2006-03-03 um 12:45 schrieb Thomas A. Schmitz:
>> i played with dual streams a bit yesterday but have no time to
>> explore it now;
>> it's a tricky business and much depends on what the input / output
>> is to be
>>
>> it is doable to develop a framework for this, but only when you and
>> others first
>> come up with some decent spec (what kind of input, what kind of
>> sync, what kind
>> of content, how to handle floats, etc)
>>
>> Hans
>
> Several other members said they were interested too. So could you
> give us a hint how this can be achieved? Could we start from
> something very simple and then move on to more advanced features? For
> the time being, I don't need any floats etc., just basic texts on
> both sides with footnotes and the possibility to give breakpoints on
> the recto side.

Friendly as ever, Hans suggests that you write a sample/spec how  
you'd like to use this feature, so that he can think about some  
implementation himself.

E.g., would such help?:

\setupsynced[setup name][mode=pages, after=pagebreak, n=2]
% n = (number of synced columns, think of more language versions to  
compare...; default=2)
% mode = pages, columns (default=columns; pages only with n=2)
% after = pagebreak, space, continue...? (what should we do with  
remaining space in column?)
% footnotes = local, ...? (synced text needs its own set of footnote  
counters...)
% frame, background etc.?

\startsynced[mysetup]%
{ greek text }%
{ german text }
\stopsynced

This would be analogous to combinations, but could handle only single  
paragraphs, I guess.
I don't think I need this feature, so it's your turn to propose a  
syntax!

Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://contextgarden.net
http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hraban,

sounds excellent! OK, what I would dream of for the time being would  
be: ConTeXt treats a pair of even/odd pages like a unity. It would be  
ideal to have two input streams, maybe as \start ... \stop environments.

\startevenpage

text

\stopevenpage

\startoddpage

text

\stopoddpage

It would be important to have commands like \breakevenpage and  
\breakoddpage that would insert a pagebreak without breaking the  
paragraph.* Both even and odd have their own set of footnotes. Both  
even and odd can have their own dimensions:

\setupevenpage[. . .]

\setupoddpage[. . .]

see \setuplayout.

Would that be possible? How hard would it be in ConTeXt? And is there  
anything in the source that I could look at to get things going?

Best

Thomas

* I'm not sure if this is clear enough. What I want is

XXXXX   XXXXX
XXXXX   XXXXX
XXXXX   XXXXX
XXXXX

PAGEBREAK

and not

XXXXX   XXXXX
XXXXX   XXXXX
XXXXX   XXXX
XXXXX


On Mar 3, 2006, at 9:25 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

> Friendly as ever, Hans suggests that you write a sample/spec how
> you'd like to use this feature, so that he can think about some
> implementation himself.
>
> E.g., would such help?:
>
> \setupsynced[setup name][mode=pages, after=pagebreak, n=2]
> % n = (number of synced columns, think of more language versions to
> compare...; default=2)
> % mode = pages, columns (default=columns; pages only with n=2)
> % after = pagebreak, space, continue...? (what should we do with
> remaining space in column?)
> % footnotes = local, ...? (synced text needs its own set of footnote
> counters...)
> % frame, background etc.?
>
> \startsynced[mysetup]%
> { greek text }%
> { german text }
> \stopsynced
>
> This would be analogous to combinations, but could handle only single
> paragraphs, I guess.
> I don't think I need this feature, so it's your turn to propose a
> syntax!
>
> Greetlings from Lake Constance!
> Hraban

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

indeed specs is what we need; also think about how to deal with graphics;

an odd-even pages is doable ; remind me in a week (due to family 
circumstances i'll be sparsely online)

Hans




Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

> Hraban,
>
> sounds excellent! OK, what I would dream of for the time being would  
> be: ConTeXt treats a pair of even/odd pages like a unity. It would be  
> ideal to have two input streams, maybe as \start ... \stop environments.
>
> \startevenpage
>
> text
>
> \stopevenpage
>
> \startoddpage
>
> text
>
> \stopoddpage
>
> It would be important to have commands like \breakevenpage and  
> \breakoddpage that would insert a pagebreak without breaking the  
> paragraph.* Both even and odd have their own set of footnotes. Both  
> even and odd can have their own dimensions:
>
> \setupevenpage[. . .]
>
> \setupoddpage[. . .]
>
> see \setuplayout.
>
> Would that be possible? How hard would it be in ConTeXt? And is there  
> anything in the source that I could look at to get things going?
>
> Best
>
> Thomas
>
> * I'm not sure if this is clear enough. What I want is
>
> XXXXX   XXXXX
> XXXXX   XXXXX
> XXXXX   XXXXX
> XXXXX
>
> PAGEBREAK
>
> and not
>
> XXXXX   XXXXX
> XXXXX   XXXXX
> XXXXX   XXXX
> XXXXX
>
>
> On Mar 3, 2006, at 9:25 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>
>   
>> Friendly as ever, Hans suggests that you write a sample/spec how
>> you'd like to use this feature, so that he can think about some
>> implementation himself.
>>
>> E.g., would such help?:
>>
>> \setupsynced[setup name][mode=pages, after=pagebreak, n=2]
>> % n = (number of synced columns, think of more language versions to
>> compare...; default=2)
>> % mode = pages, columns (default=columns; pages only with n=2)
>> % after = pagebreak, space, continue...? (what should we do with
>> remaining space in column?)
>> % footnotes = local, ...? (synced text needs its own set of footnote
>> counters...)
>> % frame, background etc.?
>>
>> \startsynced[mysetup]%
>> { greek text }%
>> { german text }
>> \stopsynced
>>
>> This would be analogous to combinations, but could handle only single
>> paragraphs, I guess.
>> I don't think I need this feature, so it's your turn to propose a
>> syntax!
>>
>> Greetlings from Lake Constance!
>> Hraban
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>   


-- 

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                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Great Hans, I'll remind you in a week. And I do hope your family  
business is a pleasant one...

Best

Thomas

On Mar 5, 2006, at 1:11 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> indeed specs is what we need; also think about how to deal with  
> graphics;
>
> an odd-even pages is doable ; remind me in a week (due to family
> circumstances i'll be sparsely online)
>
> Hans
>
>
>

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Great Hans, I'll remind you in a week. And I do hope your family  
> business is a pleasant one...
>   
no, a tragedy, 

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hans,

can I remind you of our discussion about balancing even-odd pages for  
bilingual editions etc.? I'd be extremely grateful to have that  
functionality.

All best

Thomas

Re: how to produce text with facing translation?

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Hans,
>
> can I remind you of our discussion about balancing even-odd pages for  
> bilingual editions etc.? I'd be extremely grateful to have that  
> functionality.
>   
hm, you're persistent ... 

it all depends on to what extend you want to pose some restrictions to your input but i assume it's just text; such things normally need different soluitions for different situations, so we can best implement a couple of methods; i'll send you one to play with 

Hans 


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------