* an ugly bug
@ 2007-05-20 18:52 Idris Samawi Hamid
2007-05-21 10:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2007-05-20 18:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 747 bytes --]
Dear syndicate,
This is an ugly bug; The right kerning of the the numeral '1' is really
bad:
=======================
\usetypescript[modern-base][texnansi] % a simplified latin-modern
typescript
\usetypescript [map] [latin-modern-os] [texnansi]
\setupbodyfont[reset]
\setupbodyfont[modern,11pt]
\noheaderandfooterlines
\starttext
1932 19 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10
11 21 31 41 51 61 71 81 91 01
\stoptext
=======================
pdf attached. Uses
ConTeXt ver: 2007.04.26
Has anyone else noticed this?
Best
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
[-- Attachment #2: oldstyle.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 24899 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]
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* Re: an ugly bug
2007-05-20 18:52 an ugly bug Idris Samawi Hamid
@ 2007-05-21 10:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-21 22:12 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2007-05-21 10:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> Dear syndicate,
>
> This is an ugly bug; The right kerning of the the numeral '1' is really
> bad:
The latin-modern-os typescript uses the widths of the table figures
with the oldstyle shapes, because latin modern does not ship with
correct metrics for oldstyle digits.
Best wishes,
Taco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: an ugly bug
2007-05-21 10:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2007-05-21 22:12 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
2007-05-22 7:39 ` Taco Hoekwater
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2007-05-21 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Mon, 21 May 2007 04:43:07 -0600, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>
wrote:
> Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
>> Dear syndicate,
>>
>> This is an ugly bug; The right kerning of the the numeral '1' is really
>> bad:
>
> The latin-modern-os typescript uses the widths of the table figures
> with the oldstyle shapes, because latin modern does not ship with
> correct metrics for oldstyle digits.
So it's an lm bug then. Any possibility of getting it fixed, or sending
the maintainers an urgent note (might be more effective coming from you or
Hans)?
I have a mission-critical job (journal) that has depended on old figures
for years, and cm is legacy so this needs to be fixed... this job is due
to the publisher this Thursday!
Best
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: an ugly bug
2007-05-21 22:12 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
@ 2007-05-22 7:39 ` Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-22 14:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2007-05-22 7:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2007 04:43:07 -0600, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
>>> Dear syndicate,
>>>
>>> This is an ugly bug; The right kerning of the the numeral '1' is really
>>> bad:
>> The latin-modern-os typescript uses the widths of the table figures
>> with the oldstyle shapes, because latin modern does not ship with
>> correct metrics for oldstyle digits.
>
> So it's an lm bug then. Any possibility of getting it fixed, or sending
> the maintainers an urgent note (might be more effective coming from you or
> Hans)?
If you want these metrics, it makes sense to drop them a note. But no
way are they going to create new metrics for you before next Thursday,
so we had better come up with something else. I can create a bunch of
metrics for you, but I do not have time to create hundreds of these
by hand, so tell me: are you using 'modern-base, texnansi' in your
actual project as well?
Taco
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: an ugly bug
2007-05-22 7:39 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2007-05-22 14:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
2007-05-22 19:34 ` Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-22 23:40 ` an ugly bug Aditya Mahajan
0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2007-05-22 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Hans Hagen
Hi Taco,
On Tue, 22 May 2007 01:39:55 -0600, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>
wrote:
>>>> This is an ugly bug; The right kerning of the the numeral '1' is
>>>> really
>>>> bad:
>>> The latin-modern-os typescript uses the widths of the table figures
>>> with the oldstyle shapes, because latin modern does not ship with
>>> correct metrics for oldstyle digits.
>>
>> So it's an lm bug then. Any possibility of getting it fixed, or sending
>> the maintainers an urgent note (might be more effective coming from you
>> or
>> Hans)?
>
> If you want these metrics, it makes sense to drop them a note. But no
> way are they going to create new metrics for you before next Thursday,
> so we had better come up with something else. I can create a bunch of
> metrics for you, but I do not have time to create hundreds of these
> by hand, so tell me: are you using 'modern-base, texnansi' in your
> actual project as well?
Here is my exact setup for the project:
=====================
\usetypescript[serif,sans,mono][hanging][hz,normal]
\setupalign[hz,hanging]
\usetypescript[modern-base][texnansi] % a simplified latin-modern
typescript
\usetypescript [map] [latin-modern-os] [texnansi]
\setupbodyfont[reset]
\setupbodyfont[modern,11pt]
=====================
2 problems:
i) bad kerning (subject of this thread);
ii) \type gives way to complaints about missing numerals in lmtt10 (see
other thread "oldstyle bug"). Apparently the <numeral>.oldstyle glyphs
have been renamed <numeral>.taoldstyle. WHY ON EARTH would they do that?!?
Didn't the maintainers realize this would break things? It certainly makes
encoding font collections more difficult.
This is a journal so I need to maintain consistency: can't go back to
upright.
Best
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc
2007-05-22 14:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
@ 2007-05-22 19:34 ` Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-22 23:40 ` an ugly bug Aditya Mahajan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2007-05-22 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bogusław Jackowski
Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Idris Samawi Hamid, tex-live
Hi Jacko,
On the ConTeXT mailing list, Idris posted some messages because he was
trying to use oldstyle numerals in the latest Latin Modern release,
and was experiencing two pretty big problems:
* really bad kerning around the oldstyle numerals
* pdftex generated errors for the typewriter fonts, complaining
"glyph `one.oldstyle' undefined" etc.
The implementation of 'automatic' oldstyle numbers in ConTeXt uses a
set of encoding files that used to ship with LM (lm-xxxxxx-os.enc).
By way of a map file fragment, this allows to switch the fonts
'en masse' from lining to oldstyle (and back) without the need for
special metric files, which is a pretty nice feature.
Those encoding files now apparently obsolete: they still refer to
glyphs named e.g. `one.oldstyle', whereas in the current release of
the LM fonts it really should be `one.taboldstyle'.
While writing a bug report, I noticed that these encoding files are no
longer in the font distribution (They are still included on texlive2007,
but I don't know if anybody except ConTeXt attempts to use them).
Is this trick to get oldstyle now officially unsupported? That would
be a shame, because there are no oldstyle-using TFM files in the LM
distribution either ...
Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: an ugly bug
2007-05-22 14:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
2007-05-22 19:34 ` Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc Taco Hoekwater
@ 2007-05-22 23:40 ` Aditya Mahajan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2007-05-22 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Tue, 22 May 2007, Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> Hi Taco,
>
> On Tue, 22 May 2007 01:39:55 -0600, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>>> This is an ugly bug; The right kerning of the the numeral '1' is
>>>>> really
>>>>> bad:
>>>> The latin-modern-os typescript uses the widths of the table figures
>>>> with the oldstyle shapes, because latin modern does not ship with
>>>> correct metrics for oldstyle digits.
>>>
>>> So it's an lm bug then. Any possibility of getting it fixed, or sending
>>> the maintainers an urgent note (might be more effective coming from you
>>> or
>>> Hans)?
>>
>> If you want these metrics, it makes sense to drop them a note. But no
>> way are they going to create new metrics for you before next Thursday,
>> so we had better come up with something else. I can create a bunch of
>> metrics for you, but I do not have time to create hundreds of these
>> by hand, so tell me: are you using 'modern-base, texnansi' in your
>> actual project as well?
>
> Here is my exact setup for the project:
>
> =====================
> \usetypescript[serif,sans,mono][hanging][hz,normal]
> \setupalign[hz,hanging]
> \usetypescript[modern-base][texnansi] % a simplified latin-modern
> typescript
> \usetypescript [map] [latin-modern-os] [texnansi]
> \setupbodyfont[reset]
> \setupbodyfont[modern,11pt]
> =====================
>
> 2 problems:
>
> i) bad kerning (subject of this thread);
>
> ii) \type gives way to complaints about missing numerals in lmtt10 (see
> other thread "oldstyle bug"). Apparently the <numeral>.oldstyle glyphs
> have been renamed <numeral>.taoldstyle. WHY ON EARTH would they do that?!?
> Didn't the maintainers realize this would break things? It certainly makes
> encoding font collections more difficult.
>
> This is a journal so I need to maintain consistency: can't go back to
> upright.
Maybe as a temporary workaround, try to get old lmodern files and use
them instead. I do not know if they are archived somewhere or not.
Aditya
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc
@ 2007-05-24 13:48 bop
2007-05-24 15:56 ` Taco Hoekwater
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: bop @ 2007-05-24 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Taco Hoekwater
Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, janusz, Idris Samawi Hamid, tex-live
Hi,
> On the ConTeXT mailing list, Idris posted some messages because he was
> trying to use oldstyle numerals in the latest Latin Modern release,
> and was experiencing two pretty big problems:
>
> * really bad kerning around the oldstyle numerals
We would be grateful if we could get more details (which font, which tfm,
which
encoding, pdftex or tex/dvips, on the screen or on the paper, etc.) My first
guess is that proportional figures were used with tabular metrics...
> * pdftex generated errors for the typewriter fonts, complaining
> "glyph `one.oldstyle' undefined" etc.
Yeah... This is the result of our decision to comply with the currently
obeying
naming conventions (better to say: fashion). The oldstyle figures that appear
in
ts1 (text companion) encoding are actually *.taboldstyle; the names *.oldstyle
are reserved for proportional glyphs. We included also proportional oldstyle
figures in LMs (and in the TeX Gyre fonts).
> The implementation of 'automatic' oldstyle numbers in ConTeXt uses a
> set of encoding files that used to ship with LM (lm-xxxxxx-os.enc).
> By way of a map file fragment, this allows to switch the fonts
> 'en masse' from lining to oldstyle (and back) without the need for
> special metric files, which is a pretty nice feature.
Don't understand -- the vertical oldstyle digits, in general, have different
metric data (tabular digits differ only with respect to vertical dimensions).
So, the replacement of the encoding implies the replacement of TFMs. Or I
misundersood something.
> Those encoding files now apparently obsolete: they still refer to
> glyphs named e.g. `one.oldstyle', whereas in the current release of
> the LM fonts it really should be `one.taboldstyle'.
Yes, as I explained above.
> While writing a bug report, I noticed that these encoding files are no
> longer in the font distribution
No. We have a lot enough of TFMs and I'd be reluctant to add more. The only
resort I can see is to use OTFs...
> Is this trick to get oldstyle now officially unsupported?
Rather not, I've just learned about it. ;-)
> because there are no oldstyle-using TFM files in the LM
> distribution either ...
There are. As I mentioned, ts1 encoding contains oldstyle tabular figures.
Perhaps accessing them needs other tricks, but as long as 256-glyph fonts are
to be used, some glyphs must be accessed clumsily. e.g., proportional digits
(normal and oldstyle).
Cheers -- Jacko
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc
2007-05-24 13:48 Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc bop
@ 2007-05-24 15:56 ` Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-25 10:47 ` bop
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2007-05-24 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bop; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, janusz, Idris Samawi Hamid, tex-live
bop@bop.com.pl wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> On the ConTeXT mailing list, Idris posted some messages because he was
>> trying to use oldstyle numerals in the latest Latin Modern release,
>> and was experiencing two pretty big problems:
>>
>> * really bad kerning around the oldstyle numerals
>
> We would be grateful if we could get more details (which font, which tfm,
> which encoding, pdftex or tex/dvips, on the screen or on the paper, etc.)
> My first guess is that proportional figures were used with tabular metrics...
Yes, but see explanation below.
>> The implementation of 'automatic' oldstyle numbers in ConTeXt uses a
>> set of encoding files that used to ship with LM (lm-xxxxxx-os.enc).
>> By way of a map file fragment, this allows to switch the fonts
>> 'en masse' from lining to oldstyle (and back) without the need for
>> special metric files, which is a pretty nice feature.
>
> Don't understand -- the vertical oldstyle digits, in general, have different
> metric data (tabular digits differ only with respect to vertical dimensions).
> So, the replacement of the encoding implies the replacement of TFMs. Or I
> misundersood something.
How it used to work:
The tabular lining figures are replaced by oldstyle figures by
means of an encoding file only. This worked fine (because the
oldstyle figures were tabular as well).
The height and depth are normally not all that important to TeX,
and with the widths the same, there was no need for a different
metrics file, just a single encoding file is enough to give all the
LM fonts oldstyle (tabular) figures instead of lining figures.
This trick broke when the tabular oldstyle figures were renamed
and proportional oldstyle figures were added (to the non-typewriter
fonts. Both problems Idris had came directly from that the fact
that these changes make the encoding file invalid:
* the perceived kerning is wrong because the actual proportional glyphs
have different sidebearings, and
* the monospace fonts gave an error because the glyphs were renamed,
so the requested glyphs were no longer existent at all.
>> While writing a bug report, I noticed that these encoding files are no
>> longer in the font distribution
>
> No. We have a lot enough of TFMs and I'd be reluctant to add more. The only
> resort I can see is to use OTFs...
>
>> Is this trick to get oldstyle now officially unsupported?
>
> Rather not, I've just learned about it. ;-)
Yes, I understand that now. Well, can you please consider starting to
support it then? ;-)
>> because there are no oldstyle-using TFM files in the LM
>> distribution either ...
>
> There are. As I mentioned, ts1 encoding contains oldstyle tabular figures.
> Perhaps accessing them needs other tricks, but as long as 256-glyph fonts are
> to be used, some glyphs must be accessed clumsily. e.g., proportional digits
> (normal and oldstyle).
>
I know there are way to many TFM files already, I don't want you to
ship dozens (hundreds?) of new ones. But from a user's point of view,
having to switch to a different encoding for each number is not what
I consider 'supporting oldstyle digits'.
The trick I explained above works surprisingly well (even if the figures
are tabular, not proportional). If I had realized that those encoding
files were not created by you yourself, I would not have bothered you
at all, as it was not your problem to begin with. But that's life ...
Cheers, Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc
2007-05-24 15:56 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2007-05-25 10:47 ` bop
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: bop @ 2007-05-25 10:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Taco Hoekwater
Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users, janusz, Idris Samawi Hamid, tex-live
Hi,
BJ> My first guess is that proportional figures were used with tabular
BJ> metrics...
TH> The tabular lining figures are replaced by oldstyle figures by
TH> means of an encoding file only. This worked fine (because the
TH> oldstyle figures were tabular as well).
TH> The height and depth are normally not all that important to TeX,
TH> and with the widths the same, there was no need for a different
TH> metrics file, just a single encoding file is enough to give all the
TH> LM fonts oldstyle (tabular) figures instead of lining figures.
Well, let me travesty my favorite "The Hunting of the Snark" by
Lewis Carroll:
The fourth is its fondness for encoding engines,
Which is constantly carries about,
And believes that they add to the beauty of scenes---
A sentiment open to doubt.
;-)
TH> This trick broke when the tabular oldstyle figures were renamed
TH> and proportional oldstyle figures were added
Unavoidably.
TH> Well, can you please consider starting to support it
TH> [the trick] then? ;-)
If you are satisfied with the bunch of extra encodings of this sort (I
wouldn't
be ;-) , I can add them to the zip file for context that we release anyway.
Recall that so far they contain map files:
fonts/map/pdftex/context/
fonts/map/pdftex/context/cs-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/ec-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/el-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/l7x-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/qx-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/rm-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/texnansi-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/t5-lm.map
fonts/map/pdftex/context/ts1-lm.map
TH> The trick I explained above works surprisingly well (even if the figures
TH> are tabular, not proportional).
ONLY if they are tabular. If the substitution uses proportional ones, i.e.,
named *.oldstyle, the estehical disaster is bound to ensue.
> I would not have bothered you at all, as it was not your problem
> to begin with. But that's life ...
Once I understand the problem, I can easily tune up the engine that
prepares the distribution bundle.
Is it an urgent matter? That is, would you like mi to replace the
ConTeXt-oriented packages (in all fonts we distribute) as soon as
possible or we can do it succesively with the new releases?
Cheers -- Jacko
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-05-25 10:47 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2007-05-20 18:52 an ugly bug Idris Samawi Hamid
2007-05-21 10:43 ` Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-21 22:12 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
2007-05-22 7:39 ` Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-22 14:49 ` Idris Samawi Hamid
2007-05-22 19:34 ` Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-22 23:40 ` an ugly bug Aditya Mahajan
2007-05-24 13:48 Latin Modern bug in lm-texnansi-os.enc bop
2007-05-24 15:56 ` Taco Hoekwater
2007-05-25 10:47 ` bop
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