ghost in data ?

ghost in data ?

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi,

on my machine, viewed with various text-editors the two sym-lines are  
identical:

\starttext

\startitemize[width=25mm]

\sym{i.\‚V.}in Verbindung% ERROR
%\sym{i.\,V.}in Verbindung% NO ERROR

\stopitemize

\stoptext


Nevertheless, the first one gives an error (see below), the second  
goes fine ...

Is this reproducible via email + copy&paste ?

Steffen



! Undefined control sequence.
<argument> i.\‚V
                    .
\doattributes ...sname #1#2\@EA \endcsname \fi {#4
                                                   }\dostopattributes
\dolistitem ...itional \symbollistitem \symsymbol
                                                   \else  
\doitemattributes \i...

\complexdoitemgroupitem ...obreak \fi \dolistitem
                                                   \relax  
\ifconditional \pac...
<to be read again>
                    i
l.9 \sym{i.\‚V.}i
                    n Verbindung% ERROR
?



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Re: ghost in data ?

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 15.12.2007 um 19:59 schrieb Patrick Gundlach:

> Hi Steffen,
>
>
>> on my machine, viewed with various text-editors the two sym-lines are
>> identical:
>>
>> \starttext
>>
>> \startitemize[width=25mm]
>>
>> \sym{i.\‚V.}in Verbindung% ERROR
>
> this ',' is in reality a SINGLE LOW-9 QUOTATION MARK (U+210A) and  
> this one
>
>> %\sym{i.\,V.}in Verbindung% NO ERROR
>
> U+002C, a simple COMMA.


Uff, no ghosts ... that's good news o)

But – Patrick you work on Mac, too – in which editor/application can  
I actually *see* a difference?


Thanks,

Steffen
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Re: ghost in data ?

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hi Steffen,


> on my machine, viewed with various text-editors the two sym-lines are  
> identical:
>
> \starttext
>
> \startitemize[width=25mm]
>
> \sym{i.\‚V.}in Verbindung% ERROR

this ',' is in reality a SINGLE LOW-9 QUOTATION MARK (U+210A) and this one

> %\sym{i.\,V.}in Verbindung% NO ERROR

U+002C, a simple COMMA.

Patrick
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Re: ghost in data ?

[Peter Rolf]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1763 bytes --]

Steffen Wolfrum schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> on my machine, viewed with various text-editors the two sym-lines are  
> identical:
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \startitemize[width=25mm]
> 
> \sym{i.\‚V.}in Verbindung% ERROR
> %\sym{i.\,V.}in Verbindung% NO ERROR
> 
> \stopitemize
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> 
> Nevertheless, the first one gives an error (see below), the second  
> goes fine ...
> 
> Is this reproducible via email + copy&paste ?
>
yes, it's reproducible. But the versions aren't the same. See attached
picture. So there is no ghost in the data, only  *..in the machine* ;)

Peter

> Steffen
> 
> 
> 
> ! Undefined control sequence.
> <argument> i.\‚V
>                     .
> \doattributes ...sname #1#2\@EA \endcsname \fi {#4
>                                                    }\dostopattributes
> \dolistitem ...itional \symbollistitem \symsymbol
>                                                    \else  
> \doitemattributes \i...
> 
> \complexdoitemgroupitem ...obreak \fi \dolistitem
>                                                    \relax  
> \ifconditional \pac...
> <to be read again>
>                     i
> l.9 \sym{i.\‚V.}i
>                     n Verbindung% ERROR
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 


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[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]

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Re: ghost in data ?

[Arthur Reutenauer]

>> \sym{i.\‚V.}in Verbindung% ERROR
> 
> this ',' is in reality a SINGLE LOW-9 QUOTATION MARK (U+210A)

  U+201A, of course (the non-ASCII punctuation marks begin at U+2000 --
the "General Punctuation" block; the 2100 row contains "Letterlike
Symbol" with arrows at the end).

	Arthur
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Re: ghost in data ?

[Peter Münster]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 08:32:24PM +0100, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> 
> But – Patrick you work on Mac, too – in which editor/application can  
> I actually *see* a difference?

Hello Steffen,

If you see it or not, depends on the font of the application. I can see a
small difference in my email-client
(mutt + xterm + -adobe-courier-bold-r-*--20-*-iso10646-1),
but not in my editor
(emacs + -*-fixed-medium-r-*--24-*-iso10646-1)...

Cheers, Peter

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Re: ghost in data ?

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello Steffen,

>> this ',' is in reality a SINGLE LOW-9 QUOTATION MARK (U+210A) and  

(thanks Arthur for the correction!)

> But – Patrick you work on Mac, too – in which editor/application can  
> I actually *see* a difference?

Don't ask me. I've used emacs and asked it (C-u C-x =) to get me
information on the character and it told me the unicode
codepoint.

You could also use Unicode Checker for this kind of task. See 
http://earthlingsoft.net/UnicodeChecker/ (it's a Mac OS X software).


Another comment: could it be that your computer clock is one day back?
Your mails appear as if they were created yesterday.

(Nice way to push deadlines, though :))

Patrick

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Re: ghost in data ?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2007-12-15 um 20:58 schrieb Patrick Gundlach:

>> But – Patrick you work on Mac, too – in which editor/application can
>> I actually *see* a difference?
>
> Don't ask me. I've used emacs and asked it (C-u C-x =) to get me
> information on the character and it told me the unicode
> codepoint.

I'm on a Mac, too.
I use TextWrangler (free edition of BBedit, http://www.barebones.com/ 
products/textwrangler/download.shtml), there you can open (and re- 
open) a file in different encodings - i.e. open a UTF encoded file as  
ISO-Latin-1, enable "show invisibles" and you can see the whole cruft.
Or look at a hex dump.

I know no other editor (with a GUI, not vi or emacs) that makes  
encoding changes so easy! It can even point you at the characters  
that don't fit into some encoding into that you tried to save.

Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
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Re: ghost in data ?

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 15.12.2007 um 20:58 schrieb Patrick Gundlach:

> Hello Steffen,
>
>>> this ',' is in reality a SINGLE LOW-9 QUOTATION MARK (U+210A) and
>
> (thanks Arthur for the correction!)
>
>> But – Patrick you work on Mac, too – in which editor/application can
>> I actually *see* a difference?
> ...


> Another comment: could it be that your computer clock is one day back?
> Your mails appear as if they were created yesterday.
>
> (Nice way to push deadlines, though :))


Exactly: As I nearly got mad yesterday, for I couldn't see a  
difference between \, and \‚ (and my document didn't want run for  
that error) I wanted to try all text-editor related software that I  
could found on my machine, also a beta that expired on 15th December ...

Steffen
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Re: ghost in data ?

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 15.12.2007 um 22:07 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:

> Am 2007-12-15 um 20:58 schrieb Patrick Gundlach:
>
>>> But – Patrick you work on Mac, too – in which editor/application can
>>> I actually *see* a difference?
>>
>> Don't ask me. I've used emacs and asked it (C-u C-x =) to get me
>> information on the character and it told me the unicode
>> codepoint.
>
> I'm on a Mac, too.
> I use TextWrangler (free edition of BBedit, http://www.barebones.com/
> products/textwrangler/download.shtml), there you can open (and re-
> open) a file in different encodings - i.e. open a UTF encoded file as
> ISO-Latin-1, enable "show invisibles" and you can see the whole cruft.
> Or look at a hex dump.



That's right. I love TextWrangler too. Just the fixed-width Monaco  
doesn't show a visual difference between \‚ and \,
But the trick with re-opening the UTF encoded file with ISO-Latin-1  
is nice: now finally the difference is viewable!!

Just to have a proper (fixed-width) font that pays respect to this  
difference (like between – and -) would be great!!

Steffen 
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Re: ghost in data ?

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Dec 16, 2007 8:47 AM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

> Exactly: As I nearly got mad yesterday, for I couldn't see a
> difference between \, and \‚ (and my document didn't want run for
> that error) I wanted to try all text-editor related software that I
> could found on my machine, also a beta that expired on 15th December ...

In vim you can use
    ga
to see the unicode value of the character under the cursor (and :q to
exit fro vim, before you get mad again :-)
It should be already installed on your computer :).

Mojca
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