%18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

%18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi,

I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left  
to the number "% 18".
Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/ 
TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect  
placement of the percentage sign".

Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??


Thanks,

Steffen
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Mr Dietrich Rordorf / MDPI]

Dear Steffen,

Arabic is read from right to left, so the the % sign in front of the 
number, if you read from right to left, becomes actually after the 
number. One of my co-worker originally from Lebanon confirmed this.

Kind regards,
Dietrich

--
Mr. Dietrich Rordorf
MDPI Center
Matthaeusstrasse 11
CH-4057 Basel
Switzerland

E-mail: rordorf@mdpi.org
Skype:  d.rordorf

Tel. +41 61 683 77 34 (office)
Tel. +41 76 561 41 83 (mobile)
Fax  +41 61 302 89 18

Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left  
> to the number "% 18".
> Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/ 
> TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect  
> placement of the percentage sign".
> 
> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steffen
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:27:16 -0700, Steffen Wolfrum  
<context@st.estfiles.de> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left
> to the number "% 18".
> Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/
> TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect
> placement of the percentage sign".
>
> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??

It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among  
Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more than one  
convention for dealing with mathematical directionality.

Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script  
world.

These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of  
Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv.

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 31.01.2008 um 16:08 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid:

>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
>
> It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among
> Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more  
> than one
> convention for dealing with mathematical directionality.
>
> Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script
> world.


That's what I suspected ...

> These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of
> Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv.


Yes!!

> Best wishes
> Idris


Thanks,

Steffen
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:08:45 -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid  
<ishamid@colostate.edu> wrote:

> Both languages are left-to-right,

RTL, of course...

I

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2008-01-31 um 16:08 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid:

>> I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left
>> to the number "% 18".
>> Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/
>> TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect
>> placement of the percentage sign".
>>
>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
>
> It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among
> Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more  
> than one
> convention for dealing with mathematical directionality.
>
> Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script
> world.
>
> These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of
> Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv.

Hm, reminds me of conventions where you place currency symbols -  
depending on if you live in a economist/accountant surrounding...

Do you think some automated handling of such is possible at all?

I know nothing about Arabic script, of course...


Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Peter Münster]

On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
> 
> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??

Hello,

I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask
for "%81 or 18%" ?

Cheers, Peter

-- 
http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Hans Hagen]

Peter Münster wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask
> for "%81 or 18%" ?

interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about

[bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos]

[bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos]

for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed

math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a tendency to 
go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum)


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:25:45 -0700, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net>  
wrote:

>>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??

>> These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of
>> Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv.
>
> Hm, reminds me of conventions where you place currency symbols -
> depending on if you live in a economist/accountant surrounding...
>
> Do you think some automated handling of such is possible at all?

One can already handle this sort of thing using Omega Translation  
Processes, which luaTeX supports. For example, there is an otp which makes  
sure that numeral-strings are always treated as LR, otherwise 1234 would  
come out as 4321. I suppose translating these rules into lua and/or  
opentype rules should be easy...

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Hans Hagen]

Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:25:45 -0700, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net>  
> wrote:
> 
>>>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
> 
>>> These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of
>>> Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv.
>> Hm, reminds me of conventions where you place currency symbols -
>> depending on if you live in a economist/accountant surrounding...
>>
>> Do you think some automated handling of such is possible at all?
> 
> One can already handle this sort of thing using Omega Translation  
> Processes, which luaTeX supports. For example, there is an otp which makes  
> sure that numeral-strings are always treated as LR, otherwise 1234 would  
> come out as 4321. I suppose translating these rules into lua and/or  
> opentype rules should be easy...

i can add this to the arab analyzer (just inject direction nodes around 
numbers)

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:35:35 -0700, Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>
>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
>
> Hello,
>
> I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask
> for "%81 or 18%" ?

Hmm, this could be a long discussion...

In ancient times, Arabic numerals (whence our own) were pronounced as  
follows (translation):

1234 => "4 and 30 and 2 hundred and a thousand"

Writing from right to left one would write 4 first, then 3, etc., giving  
the same output as writing from left to right. So the oft-repeated mantra  
that "numbering in Arabic is LR" is a half-truth. Today, Arabs, Persians  
etc. read numerals the same way westerners do; so the effect is that it is  
more convenient to enter numeral-strings as LR. But when the numbers were  
read in reverse (actually it is we that read numbers in reverse when you  
think about it, "Arabic numerals" after all) they were written RL and  
looked the same as our LR version.

So taking Peter's logic to its conclusion we should be writing 18 as 81,  
not the other way around ;-)

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:42:53 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about
>
> [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos]
>
> [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos]

IIRC Persian and Arabic have diffferent rules; I need to research this  
again (check urdu too)... will report back.

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos]
> 
> [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos]
> 
> for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed

  I think you're mistaken about the flexibility of human mind.  Eight
digits may look like a lot, but that's really not a long string compared
to an average line width, and it does not take a lot of effort for the
reader to look ahead for the start of the number.  And eight digits is
probably the longest it gets anyway (OK, maybe 12, but a 15-digit number
would be difficult to read for anyone in any language).

  Actually you should look at it as a cultural difference, even if it
interferes with scientific notation (and if you think about it, the
percent sign is a scientific one, even if a rather simple and widely
used one).  And I'm sure you know how natural each person can find his
own culture, while others would be puzzled by aspects of it.  Hey,
you're Dutch; doesn't that number read something like "twelve millions
four hundred two and seventy thousands four hundred seven and seventy"
in Dutch?  (What else do German, Dutch, Arabic and Slovenian have in
common?)  And yet I'm sure you would read it out loud without hesitation
(OK, you might say that you're only reversing two digits at a time, but
I could reply that the way I see it, they are interspersed more or less
arbitrarily).

> math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a tendency to 
> go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum)

  That's standard in Maghreb as far as I know.

	Arthur
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Otared Kavian]

Hi all,

I checked in some Persian printed books, and noticed that the rule is  
to write 18% or rather

۱۸%

However I don't know of any book in Persian on rules of typography.  
But I am asking some people in Iran about the issue.

Regarding the treatment of numbers, indeed numbers are written (and  
read…) in the usual way, but in XeConTeXt or in XeTeX (I don't know  
still how to typeset an Arabic or Persian file with mkiv LuaTeX),  
there is an issue with separators of digits: for instance if one  
writes (in the source file)

۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹

(meaning 123 456 789, using a space as a separator between thousands)  
then one gets in the typeset file

۷۸۹ ۴۵۶ ۱۲۳

that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write

\beginL
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
\endL

and then the output is correct, but there is a slight modification of  
the alignment and the treatment of glues (if I don't misinterpret).
While if one uses a comma (that is U+002C, this is the comma for LR,  
while the comma for RL, the Arabic Comma, is U+060C) as in

۱۲۳{,}۴۵۶{,}۷۸۹

or

۱۲۳,۴۵۶,۷۸۹

or a dot (that is U+002E, which is indeed the same when writing LR or  
RL) as in

۱۲۳.۴۵۶.۷۸۹

then the output is correct.
It should be feasible to have a mechanism allowing the user to enforce  
a certain type of separator between groups of digits, and this  
separator can be a space.

Best regards: OK

On 31 janv. 08, at 23:42, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Peter Münster wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic  
>> to ask
>> for "%81 or 18%" ?
>
> interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about
>
> [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos]
>
> [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos]
>
> for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed
>
> math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a  
> tendency to
> go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum)
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an  
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Hans Hagen]

Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:35:35 -0700, Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
>> Hello,
>>
>> I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask
>> for "%81 or 18%" ?
> 
> Hmm, this could be a long discussion...

sure, but interesting (summary should be part of your arab typesetting 
paper)

> In ancient times, Arabic numerals (whence our own) were pronounced as  
> follows (translation):
> 
> 1234 => "4 and 30 and 2 hundred and a thousand"

aha, makes sense

maybe it's also related to the fact that nowadays we see more numbers, 
and have learned to see them 'as a whole' and not as a systematic sequence

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Hans Hagen]

Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
>> [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos]
>>
>> [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos]
>>
>> for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed
> 
>   I think you're mistaken about the flexibility of human mind.  Eight
> digits may look like a lot, but that's really not a long string compared
> to an average line width, and it does not take a lot of effort for the
> reader to look ahead for the start of the number.  And eight digits is
> probably the longest it gets anyway (OK, maybe 12, but a 15-digit number
> would be difficult to read for anyone in any language).

real interesting book ...

http://www.mathematicalbrain.com/preface.html

(thinks like reading and seein gumbers, thinking in numbers, differences 
imposed by culture and language)


>   Actually you should look at it as a cultural difference, even if it
> interferes with scientific notation (and if you think about it, the
> percent sign is a scientific one, even if a rather simple and widely
> used one).  And I'm sure you know how natural each person can find his
> own culture, while others would be puzzled by aspects of it.  Hey,
> you're Dutch; doesn't that number read something like "twelve millions
> four hundred two and seventy thousands four hundred seven and seventy"
> in Dutch?  (What else do German, Dutch, Arabic and Slovenian have in
> common?)  And yet I'm sure you would read it out loud without hesitation
> (OK, you might say that you're only reversing two digits at a time, but
> I could reply that the way I see it, they are interspersed more or less
> arbitrarily).

there's a difference between 2, two, second etc and languages cq. 
cultures where kids learn / encounter ons of them first

(unfortunately i forget most of whay i read so i cannot summarize it)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi Otared,

Am 01.02.2008 um 08:07 schrieb Otared Kavian:

> Hi all,
>
> I checked in some Persian printed books, and noticed that the rule is
> to write 18% or rather
>
> ۱۸%
>
> However I don't know of any book in Persian on rules of typography.
> But I am asking some people in Iran about the issue.
>
> Regarding the treatment of numbers, indeed numbers are written (and
> read…) in the usual way, but in XeConTeXt or in XeTeX (I don't know
> still how to typeset an Arabic or Persian file with mkiv LuaTeX),
> there is an issue with separators of digits: for instance if one
> writes (in the source file)
>
> ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
>
> (meaning 123 456 789, using a space as a separator between thousands)
> then one gets in the typeset file
>
> ۷۸۹ ۴۵۶ ۱۲۳
>
> that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write
>
> \beginL
> ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
> \endL
>
> and then the output is correct, ...



Maybe I missed the point: don't both lines produce the same output:  
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ ?


\TeXXeTstate=1
\definedfont["GeezaPro" at 16pt]

\starttext
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹

\beginL
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
\endL

\stoptext


... or was this a confusion of multi-script e-mails?


Steffen
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Otared Kavian]

On 1 févr. 08, at 12:15, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

> […]
>
> Maybe I missed the point: don't both lines produce the same output:
> ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ ?
>
>
> \TeXXeTstate=1
> \definedfont["GeezaPro" at 16pt]
>
> \starttext
> ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
>
> \beginL
> ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
> \endL
>
> \stoptext
>
>
> ... or was this a confusion of multi-script e-mails?
>

Hi Steffen,

Indeed you are right. But the point is that when writing a text in  
Persian, or rather any RL text, in principle the beginning of the file  
is:

\TeXXeTstate=1
\everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 }

and therefore the output is different than the one you get. If one  
omits the second or both of the above two lines, again the output is  
as one intends, but the difficulty comes from the fact that (at least  
in Persian) when one writes some text containing a number, the digits  
and the separators, which can be the comma U+002C, the space, or the  
"slash" U+002F called Solidus (?) for writing fractions, should be  
typeset Left-to-Right. In particular compare the following for writing
the number 123 456 789.01:


۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹,۰۱

\beginL
۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹,۰۱
\endL

Indeed the first one results in something meaningless.

Best regards: OK

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write
> 
> \beginL
> ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
> \endL

  I think this is more or less what the Unicode bidi algorithm
recommends (using the corresponding Unicode characters, of course, not
e-TeX commands).  I have to check.

	Arthur
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 03:32:05PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> > that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write
> > 
> > \beginL
> > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹
> > \endL
> 
>   I think this is more or less what the Unicode bidi algorithm
> recommends (using the corresponding Unicode characters, of course, not
> e-TeX commands).  I have to check.

  Actually no, it expects you to use the non-breaking space (U+00A0
NO-BREAK SPACE) as a digit separator instead of the normal space.
Sequences of digits interspersed with non-breaking spaces are not
reordered by the Bidi Algorithm, contrary to what happens when you use a
normal space.

  Of course this is not practical in ConTeXt for the moment, as the
non-breaking space isn't treated as such (or is it?).

	Arthur
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________