Re: new version luatex / mkiv

Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini]

Hallo,

> >  > This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts
> >  > called, but  mplib is used instead. 

is there or will der be a documented interface description for mplib.

Wolfgang
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Taco Hoekwater]

Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini wrote:
> Hallo,
> 
>>>  > This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts
>>>  > called, but  mplib is used instead. 
> 
> is there or will der be a documented interface description for mplib.

In the luatex reference manual (for now).

http://foundry.supelec.fr/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/tags/beta-0.25.2/manual/?root=luatex


Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini wrote:
> Hallo,
> 
>>>  > This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts
>>>  > called, but  mplib is used instead. 
> 
> is there or will der be a documented interface description for mplib.

it's in the luatex ref manual

Hans


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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini]

On 12 Apr 2008 at 12:00, ntg-context-request@ntg.nl wrote:

Hallo Taco,

> Real API documentation will be provided once I am past the "alpha"
> release stage. At the moment, I do not trust the API enough to
> expose it to anything except controlled environments (lua mplib,
> newmpost)
> 
> >> Isn't mplib a dll under windows?
> 
> It is possible to build the unix version as a .so because support
> for that comes from autofoo automatically, but that is not yet
> officially supported: debugging dynamic libraries is harder than 
> debugging static code.

On the other side, it is very easy to replace a dll by a new version, 
if the interface stays stable.

> MPlib could become a dll on windows eventually, but first someone
> will have to explain to me how to create a windows dll (and I vastly
> prefer a solution that does not involve me having to pay Microsoft any
> money).

You have not to pay anything, to build a Dll. And there is Msys for 
example, which works in a unix-environment under windows. Should be 
no problem.

> I have exactly zero knowledge in that area and do not have a
> Windows installation either: the one and only XP machine here is my 
> wife's gaming machine and that is strictly offlimits to me.

:-)

> Future versions of luatex and mpost itself (and potential other
> texlive programs) will almost certainly remain statically linked 
> because that is much more convenient for us as maintainers.

If there is more than one program, which is using mplib, you have to 
update all theses programs, if you make some mplib changes.

But I think that a dll could very much boost the metapost usage. It 
would than be very easy to write third party software.

Wolfgang

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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini wrote:
> On 12 Apr 2008 at 12:00, ntg-context-request@ntg.nl wrote:
> 
> Hallo Taco,
> 
>> Real API documentation will be provided once I am past the "alpha"
>> release stage. At the moment, I do not trust the API enough to
>> expose it to anything except controlled environments (lua mplib,
>> newmpost)
>>
>>>> Isn't mplib a dll under windows?
>> It is possible to build the unix version as a .so because support
>> for that comes from autofoo automatically, but that is not yet
>> officially supported: debugging dynamic libraries is harder than 
>> debugging static code.
> 
> On the other side, it is very easy to replace a dll by a new version, 
> if the interface stays stable.

sure, but it also introduced unneeded mails on support lists of users 
who mix up things; we'd probably end up with the same situation as kpse 
... mplib234.dll and so, which does not improve things either

> If there is more than one program, which is using mplib, you have to 
> update all theses programs, if you make some mplib changes.

indeed, but contrary to tex livem where all binaries are updated in 
sync, for moving targets like luatex we want to be sure that things 
match; disk space is cheap, and telling user to download 'this' and 
'that' and put 'such' and 'so' in locations 'here' and 'there' is more 
trouble than let them just download one binary etc

> But I think that a dll could very much boost the metapost usage. It 
> would than be very easy to write third party software.

maybe, but that is independent of being used in luatex and mpost itself; 
as taco mentioned, there it will be staticaly linked, just as lua and 
its libs

Hans

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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini]

Hallo,

> > is there or will there be a documented interface description for
> mplib.
> 
> In the luatex reference manual (for now).
> 
> http://foundry.supelec.fr/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/tags/beta-0.25.
> 2/manual/?root=luatex

This manual is not viewable without deleting a html-frame.
Or what I am doing wrong?

The manual describes a lua interface. 
Isn't mplib a dll under windows?

If yes, where can I find a header-file of the export table.
If no, how have you implemented the library?

Wolfgang
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Wolfgang Werners-Lucchini wrote:
> Hallo,
> 
>>> is there or will there be a documented interface description for
>> mplib.
>>
>> In the luatex reference manual (for now).
>>
>> http://foundry.supelec.fr/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/tags/beta-0.25.
>> 2/manual/?root=luatex
> 
> This manual is not viewable without deleting a html-frame.
> Or what I am doing wrong?

i don't know, it's a pdf document, so no html frame is part of it

> The manual describes a lua interface. 
> Isn't mplib a dll under windows?

no, a cross platform library that will be embedded in lua and the core 
of metapost 2 (aka megapost)

keep in mind that it's beta

Hans

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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hans Hagen wrote:
>> This manual is not viewable without deleting a html-frame.
>> Or what I am doing wrong?
> 
> i don't know, it's a pdf document, so no html frame is part of it

That is just a weirdness in viewcvs, too bad. Here is better link

   http://www.luatex.org/svn/tags/beta-0.25.2/manual/luatexref-t.pdf


>> The manual describes a lua interface. 

(next paragraphs written as the MPlib maintainer)

Real API documentation will be provided once I am past the "alpha"
release stage. At the moment, I do not trust the API enough to expose
it to anything except controlled environments (lua mplib, newmpost)

>> Isn't mplib a dll under windows?

It is possible to build the unix version as a .so because support for
that comes from autofoo automatically, but that is not yet officially
supported: debugging dynamic libraries is harder than debugging static
code.

MPlib could become a dll on windows eventually, but first someone will
have to explain to me how to create a windows dll (and I vastly prefer
a solution that does not involve me having to pay Microsoft any money).
I have exactly zero knowledge in that area and do not have a Windows
installation either: the one and only XP machine here is my wife's
gaming machine and that is strictly offlimits to me.

Future versions of luatex and mpost itself (and potential other texlive
programs) will almost certainly remain statically linked because that is
much more convenient for us as maintainers.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Lou]

Hello Hans,

Saturday, April 12, 2008, 3:23:36 PM, you wrote:

>>> http://foundry.supelec.fr/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/tags/beta-0.25.
>>> 2/manual/?root=luatex

>> This manual is not viewable without deleting a html-frame.
>> Or what I am doing wrong?

> i don't know, it's a pdf document, so no html frame is part of it

I think the files are defective. No?

Is Lua going to be the only or main programming language for use with ConTeXt?

-- 
Best regards,
 Lou             

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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Lou  wrote:
> Hello Hans,
>
>
>  Saturday, April 12, 2008, 3:23:36 PM, you wrote:
>
>  >>> http://foundry.supelec.fr/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/tags/beta-0.25.
>  >>> 2/manual/?root=luatex
>
>  >> This manual is not viewable without deleting a html-frame.
>  >> Or what I am doing wrong?
>
>  > i don't know, it's a pdf document, so no html frame is part of it
>
>  I think the files are defective. No?

The files are not defective - if you use svn checkout, it works OK. It
seems that only the web interface has problems.

Mojca
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Lou wrote:
> Hello Hans,
> 
> Saturday, April 12, 2008, 3:23:36 PM, you wrote:
> 
>>>> http://foundry.supelec.fr/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/tags/beta-0.25.
>>>> 2/manual/?root=luatex
> 
>>> This manual is not viewable without deleting a html-frame.
>>> Or what I am doing wrong?
> 
>> i don't know, it's a pdf document, so no html frame is part of it
> 
> I think the files are defective. No?
> 
> Is Lua going to be the only or main programming language for use with ConTeXt?

internally, yes; for additional tasks, i have ruby and lua scripts 
(trying to get rid of perl scripts); most tools now written in ruby will 
finally be redone in lua, but only those that still make sense


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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

There is a new version of luatex and mkiv. You need to update them 
together. The best place to get them is the contextgarden (which will 
probably have the new versions pretty soon).

This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called, 
but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and 
conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the 
implementation is different.

Tomorrow (or so) taco will make releasenotes.

Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Peter Rolf]

Hans Hagen schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> There is a new version of luatex and mkiv. You need to update them 
> together. The best place to get them is the contextgarden (which will 
> probably have the new versions pretty soon).
> 
> This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called, 
> but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and 
> conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the 
> implementation is different.
>
this is very good news. most runtime here is wasted by calling and 
interfacing with mp.

many thanks to you and taco for the great work. i'll test this 
intensively as soon as i get my hands on it.

best wishes, peter

> Tomorrow (or so) taco will make releasenotes.
>
> Hans
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                            Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>                Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>       tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                               | www.pragma-pod.nl
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> 

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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:18 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There is a new version of luatex and mkiv. You need to update them
> together. The best place to get them is the contextgarden (which will
> probably have the new versions pretty soon).
>
> This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called,
> but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and
> conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the
> implementation is different.
>
> Tomorrow (or so) taco will make releasenotes.
>
> Hans
>
Hi Hans,

I just downloaded and payed with it very very briefly - it works, and  
it seems A LOT faster with my presentations, where every background is  
calculated by metapost. For this sort of file, luatex now looks a lot  
faster than pdftex. I'm looking forward to comparing speed some more.  
Thanks and kudos to Taco and to you!

All best

Thomas
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>
> I just downloaded and payed with it very very briefly - it works, and  
> it seems A LOT faster with my presentations, where every background is  
> calculated by metapost. For this sort of file, luatex now looks a lot  
> faster than pdftex. I'm looking forward to comparing speed some more.  
> Thanks and kudos to Taco and to you!

the mk test document, which now ha ssome 220 pages, processes at a speed 
of 10 pages per minute on my machines, which includes startup, loading a 
nbbunch of huge fonts, lots of mp graphics, etc ..

my impression is that eventually luatex/mkiv will not be that much 
slower than pdftex sp when one takes into account that open type fonts 
are used (when lots of mp graphics are used and the new xml machinery 
... luatex/mkiv is definitely faster)

Hans

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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>  There is a new version of luatex and mkiv. You need to update them
>  together. The best place to get them is the contextgarden (which will
>  probably have the new versions pretty soon).
>
>  This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called,
>  but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and
>  conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the
>  implementation is different.
ctangle is needed to compile mplib;
I still have problems with \setupxtexternalfigures (can't resolve images)
i hope today to have time to watch this, maybe tomorrow :)


btw
"under our nose,
the revolution grows"


-- 
luigi
it's new .
it's powerful .
it's luatex .
http://www.luatex.org
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

luigi scarso wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>  There is a new version of luatex and mkiv. You need to update them
>>  together. The best place to get them is the contextgarden (which will
>>  probably have the new versions pretty soon).
>>
>>  This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called,
>>  but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and
>>  conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the
>>  implementation is different.
> ctangle is needed to compile mplib;
> I still have problems with \setupxtexternalfigures (can't resolve images)
> i hope today to have time to watch this, maybe tomorrow :)

externalfigure works here, so i need to have more specifics about your 
failure


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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[luigi scarso]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 183 bytes --]

>  externalfigure works here, so i need to have more specifics about your
>  failure

simple sample in attach
-- 
luigi
it's new .
it's powerful .
it's luatex .
http://www.luatex.org

[-- Attachment #2: t2.zip --]
[-- Type: application/zip, Size: 10611 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]

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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Maurice Diamantini]

Le 10 avr. 08 à 17:18, Hans Hagen a écrit :

> This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called,
> but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and
> conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the
> implementation is different.

What will allow mplib in luatex the future?
- Will it be only a way to write Metapost code without having
   to call external system program (better performance)?
- Or will it be possible to write figures in lua instead of Metapost?
   (would be great!!)


Another question about ConTeXt mkiv installation

Is possible to use a local full ConTeXt distrib (with basic fonts,
mplib, lua) **without interference** with existant texlive distribution
(i.e. without using all the *_TEX environment variables thanks to
ConTeXt mkiv ?)

I'd like to maintain some "hot"

Thank you very much

-- Maurice

> Tomorrow (or so) taco will make releasenotes.
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Maurice Diamantini wrote:
> Le 10 avr. 08 à 17:18, Hans Hagen a écrit :
> 
>> This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called,
>> but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and
>> conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the
>> implementation is different.
> 
> What will allow mplib in luatex the future?

the future is already there

> - Will it be only a way to write Metapost code without having
>    to call external system program (better performance)?

indeed, no mp calls any more

> - Or will it be possible to write figures in lua instead of Metapost?
>    (would be great!!)

well, in principle i could write something for that, but it's not on the 
agenda

> Another question about ConTeXt mkiv installation
> 
> Is possible to use a local full ConTeXt distrib (with basic fonts,
> mplib, lua) **without interference** with existant texlive distribution
> (i.e. without using all the *_TEX environment variables thanks to
> ConTeXt mkiv ?)

it's what i do here ... luatex alongside pdftex/xetex

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: new version luatex / mkiv

[Yue Wang]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Maurice Diamantini
<Maurice.Diamantini@ensta.fr> wrote:
>
>  Le 10 avr. 08 à 17:18, Hans Hagen a écrit :
>
>
>  > This release of is rather substantial: no longer is metaposts called,
>  > but  mplib is used instead. This bring down metapost runtime and
>  > conversion to nearly zero. The user interface is the same, but the
>  > implementation is different.
>
>  What will allow mplib in luatex the future?
>  - Will it be only a way to write Metapost code without having
>    to call external system program (better performance)?

Now mp code is processed by luatex through the mplib without to call
the external system program.

>  - Or will it be possible to write figures in lua instead of Metapost?
>    (would be great!!)

I think so, especially when dealing with non-metapost data ( for
example, use lua to parse/process the data and push them to the
mplib).
Lua is more like a programming language than metapost, new users will
learn it with less pain, of course.
I strongly suggest there should be such a interface.
but Taco said such lua interface might never exist:(

Last year, Hans made a new math interface like TI calculator based on
Lua to show it is powerful.
I think such Lua like metapost interface can also exist even it is
somewhat incomplete(neglect the linear equation solver, for instance).
>
>
>  Another question about ConTeXt mkiv installation
>
>  Is possible to use a local full ConTeXt distrib (with basic fonts,
>  mplib, lua) **without interference** with existant texlive distribution
>  (i.e. without using all the *_TEX environment variables thanks to
>  ConTeXt mkiv ?)
>

Of course. try the minimals.

>  I'd like to maintain some "hot"
>
>  Thank you very much
>
>  -- Maurice
>
>
>
>  > Tomorrow (or so) taco will make releasenotes.
>  >
>  > Hans
>  >
>  > -----------------------------------------------------------------
>  >                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>  >               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>  >      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>  >                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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>  > entry to the Wiki!
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>
>  ___________________________________________________________________________________
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>
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>  ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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